210 pointsby RubyGuy9 hours ago36 comments
  • charles_f4 hours ago
    It's interesting that we're so used to be tracked at this point that no one balks at being opted-in by default. A flag called DO_NOT_TRACK sounds like a good idea, but also suggests the default is CONSENT_TO_TRACK=1, and I find that creepy.
    • thephyber3 hours ago
      Do not track WHEN?

      This flag is sent by my browser when I connect to SOMEONE ELSE’s SERVER.

      The internet only took off because the primary business model which ran on ads and derivative information that servers do to their users.

      It’s not fun. It’s not private or secure. It’s not illegal (in most jurisdictions for most industries). The flag exists as a response to the de facto and de jure state of the world, not some fairytale scenario.

      • charles_f2 hours ago
        Article quite literally talks about tracking of cli tools you run on your own computer, half of which are to pilot products that you pay with your own money.

        Get off your high horse.

        • doginasuit2 hours ago
          I would advocate for not getting your horse high to begin with, or hide your stash better.
  • PufPufPuf7 hours ago
    This is set up for the same fate as DNT in browsers. Collecting all the "do not track" env vars into a single "do_not_track.env" file, however, may not be a bad idea...
    • whitlock6 hours ago
      https://toptout.me - exists and handles a lot of these problems, if not looking to create a new wheel.

      Though if you just want a simple ENV var that handles this WHILE honoring the specification on this page: https://github.com/alloydwhitlock/do-not-track-cli

    • LocalH6 hours ago
      Advertisers chose to ignore DNT because they claimed Microsoft making DNT enabled by default took agency away from the user. In reality, they probably weren't going to honor it anyway.
      • Gigachad10 minutes ago
        There's an inherent conflict. No one _wants_ to be tracked, there is no direct benefit to being tracked and only downsides. And advertisers want to track you. So there was no way to respect the flag other than making it obscure so only a few dedicated people turned it on.
      • mmooss5 hours ago
        Microsoft is too sophisticated to plead ignorance; they are responsible for that outcome and I think we can assume they knowningly chose it. (Though now Microsoft browsers are such a small portion of the market that it doesn't matter.)

        The biggest failure of DNT was browser makers - including Mozilla - removing it. It has zero performance impact (1 bit?) or development cost. As long as it was out there, when there was momentum against tracking, advocates had evidence of both demand for privacy and of trackers ignoring user wishes.

        • applfanboysbgon2 hours ago
          > advocates had evidence of both demand for privacy and of trackers ignoring user wishes.

          This evidence both still exists and is also completely useless for anything. The more important consideration, by far, is that the DNT flag was actively harmful to users in the real world because, if it was acknowledged at all, it was used maliciously to help fingerprint and track users. There is no reason for browsers to continue providing to their users a toggle that not only misleads them about what will happen with the setting enabled, but actively contributes to the opposite outcome because we live in a world where being evil is the norm.

    • whitlock6 hours ago
      Love it. This is an annoying problem and likely the actual solution than asking folks to use a universal one. I'll put something together as a starting point.
  • spudlyo7 hours ago
    I was surprised how hard it was to stop the Python transformers library from phoning home to Hugging Face. I set HF_HUB_DISABLE_TELEMETRY=1, and when I called Wav2Vec2CTCTokenizer.from_pretrained I explicitly passed local_files_only=True, but still I got got a warning about not having a valid HF_TOKEN. It wasn't until I stumbled upon HF_HUB_OFFLINE=1 that I'm somewhat confident that I'm not making outgoing connections to HF every time I load a wav2vec2 model from disk.

    I wouldn't have realized this was happening at all if it weren't for the obnoxious HF_TOKEN warning.

    • woodson6 hours ago
      HF is notorious for making it difficult to work offline (or at least not waste time trying to connect when everything needed is offline) and is constantly changing how it is being handled. Previously, there was TRANSFORMERS_OFFLINE, HF_DATASETS_OFFLINE, etc.
  • ximm7 hours ago
    Looks like a helpful honeypot! Any tool that will public announce support for this spec is a tool I know to avoid because it collects telemetry without explicit opt-in in the first place.
    • GuB-425 hours ago
      DO_NOT_TRACK support doesn't mean tracking is not an explicit opt-in.

      Example: the software crashes, and there is a crash handler that asks you if you want to send a crash dump. With DO_NOT_TRACK, the crash handler is disabled entirely, no question, no dump.

      If it gets some adoption, that's probably how it will work. Those who have an financial interest in using tracking (ex: ads) probably won't support such an option.

      • bstsb5 hours ago
        i can't think of a single CLI that is possibly collecting analytics for ads
    • SpyCoder776 hours ago
      Most services are already collecting telemetry, them announcing support for it won't change that.
    • xandrius6 hours ago
      Well, don't look too deep else you won't be using many modern tools.
      • msla6 hours ago
        Hey, it's a list of services to feed fake data to!
  • drnick17 hours ago
    It's probably easier to run your own DNS and blacklist the offending domains. There are good blacklists with millions of telemetry domains, e.g. https://github.com/hagezi/dns-blocklists.
    • tosti7 hours ago
      Better yet, don't allow such spyware crap on your computer.
      • 0123456789ABCDE4 hours ago
        pfft, just don't have a computer and you'll be good
    • rvz7 hours ago
      That is the correct way of handling this.

      Everyone proclaiming a "standard" is just adding to the long list of (unofficial) alternatives.

  • latexran hour ago
    Same thing has been suggested a few years ago and it went nowhere.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200613155957/https://consoledo...

  • LeoPanthera7 hours ago
    The most useful part of this page is the list of optout commands to stick in my shellrc.

    Is anyone maintaining a more complete list of those?

    • paddw7 hours ago
      an LLM would do a fine job for most common things, doesn't really matter if a few of them get hallucinated
  • smartmic7 hours ago
    > Many CLI tools, SDKs, and frameworks collect telemetry data by default.

    Any of those are using a dark pattern and before exploring new ways to opt out you should look for and spend your energy on an alternative which respects your freedoms upfront.

    • Otek7 hours ago
      Exactly, new “standard” won’t fix it
  • XCSme7 hours ago
    I thought it would be a sh script to automatically set the flags for all known do not track env vars.
    • 4 hours ago
      undefined
  • batisteo7 hours ago
    It worked so well on the browser already
  • 0xbadcafebee6 hours ago
    I don't think there is any way to stop people from tracking you. Technically speaking, you can pretty much always be tracked. Even if you eliminated all third party requests you could still be tracked. Downloads, logins, queries, etc all can be tracked. Virtually all software now has the "continuously upgrade to the latest version" bullshit so you are tracked every time you open the app. Even if you turn it off, they stop the app from working until you upgrade, so they force you to be tracked.

    I think the only solution is to make it law that you can't track anyone for any reason without their consent, and can't sell consensual tracking data without an additional consent agreement. It would be a huge blow to the advertising industry, so it will never be made law, but it's the only thing that would work.

    • pizzly5 hours ago
      Also every time you install a program Microsoft, Apple and Google knows depending on the device. For your safety of course. The tracking is so pervasive and the majority of people do not care.
    • slashdev5 hours ago
      It’s already a law in Europe. GDPR and ePrivacy. You have to get consent from the user. Having worked for European companies, they take it seriously.
  • drayfield7 hours ago
    Given the URL and list of different opt-outs I thought this was going to be a shell script to set all these for you. In fact, I've just had an idea...
    • SpyCoder776 hours ago
      Exactly what I was thinking.
      • 4 hours ago
        undefined
  • Bender4 hours ago
    Domain blocking is my preference but I would imagine that trackers probably also try to weed out data that contains racism, sexism, lewdness or some combination thereof. People can get very creative with ASCII art. AI surely does not accept such things.
  • dnnddidiej2 hours ago
    Love the idea but is an env var enough. Are there some sessions (docker?) that may not get it.

    I'd prefer TRACK_ME as an opt in.

  • jamietanna5 hours ago
    Was wondering if there was a list of known opt outs as we are looking at a default opt out in Renovate[0] - we'll also look to set `DO_NOT_TRACK`

    [0]: https://github.com/renovatebot/renovate/discussions/42932

  • binaryturtle5 hours ago
    This is just sad. Luckily I do not use any of the listed programs. I threw out Homebrew many years ago when they started this nonsense.

    The only tool I have installed currently that does %/"($& like this is Deno (required for yt-dlp now). It phones happily home even if you wrap it into a wrapper script that forces the env variable (in no way I'll pollute my default environment with stuff like this):

        $ cat /usr/local/bin/deno
        #!/bin/sh
        exec env DENO_NO_UPDATE_CHECK=1 /usr/local/packages/deno/latest/bin/deno "$@"
    
    
    I wish bad dreams to whoever puts such crap into their software! Thankfully I have Little Snitch to catch most of those kind of invasions of my privacy.
  • victorkulla6 hours ago
    The issue is that it is not enforced. My version of My IP will tell you if 'Do Not track' and 'Global Privacy Control' are set by your browser but it is up to the website to honour your requests. Check if your browser is sending them by visiting: https://fshot.org/utils/myip.php
    • mmooss5 hours ago
      That's great, but isn't DNT deprecated?
  • buybackoff6 hours ago
    No, it should be a required (by law) opt-in TRACK_ME_I_DO_NOT_CARE_OR_AM_A_TEAPOT=418.

    The proposed way just normalizes tracking.

    • jonhohle2 hours ago
      And setting that env var should require a notarized consent to track contract that has an expiration of at most 60 days and has penalties of jail time for any data related to that telemetry, anonymized or not that is shared with a third party, for any reason, including but not limited to fulfilling the service the business purports to be providing.

      It should be much more difficult to collect data than to opt out of collection.

  • joshka2 hours ago
    It feels like this should be no_track, for consistency with no_color
  • huksley7 hours ago
    Also this, we disable it when building or deploying apps in DollarDeploy

    export SEMGREP_SEND_METRICS=off export COLLECT_LEARNINGS_OPT_OUT=true export STORYBOOK_DISABLE_TELEMETRY=1 export NEXT_TELEMETRY_DISABLED=1 export SLS_TELEMETRY_DISABLED=1 export SLS_NOTIFICATIONS_MODE=off export DISABLE_OPENCOLLECTIVE=true export NPM_CONFIG_UPDATE_NOTIFIER=false

  • hedayet4 hours ago
    I'd be interested in, 1. a SOME-TRUST model: a list of opt-outs for the known software that collect telemetry; so that I can just paste that into an env file and be done with it. 2. a ZERO-TRUST model [preferable]: where I control if an application can send any telemetry data; instead of depending on a flag that the distributor may or may not respect.
  • amelius6 hours ago
    You can also use network namespaces to simply block internet access for certain processes. It can even be finetuned with whitelists or blacklists.
    • mmooss5 hours ago
      Could you provide more details? Many applications use multiple processes, and use some intermittently. It seems like quite a bit of work to enumerate every process used and then to keep the white/blacklist updated as usage and software changes - every new application or command you use, every update, every OS change that affects networking or system calls etc ...
      • amelius5 hours ago
        Yes, with security comes inconvenience, this is inevitable.

        I'm not a daily user of network namespaces, and would probably write a script to do the configuration within a shell (it works a bit like containers). The configuration is inherited by child processes, so you only have to do it once. Basically whitelist the urls you typically use, and maybe let the script popup a dialog asking you to allow access when the firewall catches a domain that is not in the whitelist yet.

  • 7 hours ago
    undefined
  • ivanjermakov4 hours ago
    If solution was real, it would be DO_TRACK=1, not the inverse.
  • ninjahawk16 hours ago
    Privacy should be treated as a right, not something that can be abused for money. Love the idea of this
  • kstrauser6 hours ago
    I’m morally opposed to the notion of optimizing the opt-out mechanism. I want a standardized opt-in mechanism, like:

      export ALLOW_TRACKING=telemetry,crash_dumps
    
    and the absence of such a setting means “fuck off, don’t spy on me”. It’s not my responsibility to turn off apps wanting to track me. It’s their responsibility to get me to authorize their specific flavor of tracking.
    • cj6 hours ago
      > It’s their responsibility to get me to authorize their specific flavor of tracking.

      And they do by burying it in the user agreement you probably agreed to.

      Like it or not, it is your responsibility. I agree it shouldn’t be, but let’s be realistic.

      • msla6 hours ago
        Then it's my responsibility to feed them fake data.

        They didn't opt out of my data, after all.

  • stavros7 hours ago
    Honest question, what's the problem with crash dumps that include no personal info? They just help make the software less buggy. I also don't see an issue with anonymized usage patterns (this feature was used X times this month, this one Y times, etc).

    Can someone expound on what they see as a problem?

    • JoshTriplett6 hours ago
      > Honest question, what's the problem with crash dumps that include no personal info?

      In addition to the other response: crash dumps are difficult to anonymize, both because useful crash dumps include something like a minidump (or some other small alternative to a core file), and because even without that, any random information from a backtrace may be sensitive (e.g. a URL).

      There's nothing wrong with saving a crash dump and giving the user control of whether to submit a bug report.

      • stavros6 hours ago
        I'm more thinking Python crashes, where you just get the lines that executed, and ~zero identifiable data.
    • circadian7 hours ago
      I would suggest that the default to enrolling people in supplying such information is the issue. In a world driven by surveillance capitalism, even "anonymous" data can be used for much broader purposes (think, for example, of when and where people are using tools geographically and at what times: you can start to track the behaviour of people in this way).

      Users should never be opted in through usage alone of free or paid-for tooling to supply information that isn't part of the function of the tool. Where that is required for a service or product, you should opt-in explicitly, not implicitly.

      • stavros7 hours ago
        That's fair, thanks.
  • walrus013 hours ago
    I'm sure this will be about as effective as putting yourself on the do not call list for domestic phone telemarketers, which has absolutely no effect whatsoever on overseas scam call centers.
  • charcircuit3 hours ago
    This does not make sense to support. Businesses that have proper privacy controls and security do not want to be lumped together with random shady apps and want users to explicitly opt out. Another issue with this header is that users could set it and then accidentally opt out of other sharing that they don't realize since this header is being set somewhere random. Standardizing on a per app basis way to revoke consent, along with showing privacy polices and measures the apps have put in place for guarding security would be a more sensible alternative that could gain traction.
    • pseudalopexan hour ago
      Gathering information without real consent is shady.
  • varispeed7 hours ago
    Default opt-in tracking should be illegal and enforced with such fines and prison sentences, that companies wouldn't even dare to have anything remotely capable of tracking in the runtime.

    Unfortunately big corporations can always find away to make regulators see no problem.

    • pseudalopexan hour ago
      > Default opt-in

      This is called opt out.

  • tonymet7 hours ago
    He’s better off vibecoding an include.sh that sets all the known do not track env vars for you.
  • nixpulvis5 hours ago
    Am I the only one who also finds it comical that rejecting cookies requires a cookie.
  • brettdav4 hours ago
    [dead]
  • avazhi3 hours ago
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  • iririririr7 hours ago
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