229 pointsby RigbyTaro8 hours ago12 comments
  • beambot4 hours ago
    Sayre's Law: Academic Politics Are So Vicious Because the Stakes Are So Small

    Maybe universities, tenure committees, and funding sources should stop measuring academics by vanity metrics such as H-Index and publication counts. And don't get me started on the tendency toward "minimum publishable units."

    That said, abusing power as an editor deserves a special place in hell...

    • denverllc3 hours ago
      The stakes are pretty large now. You are judged on the number of publications, positions, citations, etc.

      It’s not even about philosophical disagreement as much as future career

      • xhkkffbf35 minutes ago
        I've heard that some universities set aside $5-10 million whenever they grant someone tenure. It's a fiscally prudent accounting measure. And it's also a measure of how valuable the contract can be. (Of course one still needs to do some work soooo....)
    • pstuart24 minutes ago
      Goodhart's Law strikes again.
    • Forgeties79an hour ago
      Corporate KPI-chasing culture ruins everything. “Publish or perish” has hit such an extreme level.

      I imagine most academics would gladly not participate in this game if their entire livelihood didn’t depend on it

      • sokoloffan hour ago
        I think an awful lot of people would rather receive their livelihood without being subject to measurement.
    • azan_4 hours ago
      How should they be judged then? Any metric can be gamed. And if it will be kind of qualitative assessment then politics will be 10000x more important. The system is clearly broken but I’m not sure if alternative is not even worse.
  • shae6 hours ago
    After decades of dealing with Elsevier, Springer-Verlag and the rest; I hope they all go out of business.
  • kspacewalk25 hours ago
    The funny thing is, if the guy wasn't quite so greedy with this racket, probably no one would notice. Surely if the number of your publications and citations shoots up exponentially and surpasses those of much more well-known scientists, folks are bound to ask questions. I wonder if this got out of control or whether he really did think it's a good idea to collude his way to such prominence.
    • tedggh4 hours ago
      This is typical behavior from psychopaths when they get away with the crime for so long, they believe they are untouchable and start becoming sloppy and get caught.
    • themafia3 hours ago
      > probably no one would notice.

      It probably wouldn't have risen to this level. People always notice but don't always react in ways you can measure.

  • amarcheschi6 hours ago
    It'd be nice to check whether some llms still have "memory" of the paper she has deleted
    • recursive3 hours ago
      That's the neat part. You can never know for sure.
      • amarcheschi2 hours ago
        No but maybe if you get the correct name extracted by an llm and search it online you'll get cached sites, or links showing that they actually exist
  • mlmonkey6 hours ago
    It will be interesting to see how Goodell's citations drop going forward.
  • cess114 hours ago
    Elsevier has a history of 'promoting' successful millers to more or other journals, so they can 'drive growth', as it's sometimes put in IT, there as well.

    https://forbetterscience.com/2023/10/24/elsevier-choses-pape...

    This type of corporation is nasty and should not be allowed to exist, but thanks to people like the Maxwell clan, they do. For now.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnmFTvlrsOo

  • bpt36 hours ago
    3 down, thousands to go.

    This will continue until Elsevier and their 3 or 4 peers are removed from the academic publishing process entirely.

  • ArbriT6 hours ago
    Is it just me or this makes me feel less guilty for using libgen all these years
    • munk-a6 hours ago
      Information for non-commercial purposes should be free for general social enrichment. Information for commercial purposes should have some path towards monetization but the one we've got right now is clearly a terrible fit.

      For the future, though, usually if you just email one of the paper author's with even a hint of interest you'll get the full paper and often a neat discussion about how your specific interest relates to the paper. I think people assume researchers get hounded by fans like celebrities but they're usually folks that love to talk about their topics of interest.

    • embedding-shape6 hours ago
      I don't know anyone who should be feeling guilty from using libgen in the first place.
    • azan_4 hours ago
      I feel guilty for publishing in elsevier and paying for their “services”. By all means using scihub and libgen is morally superior position.
    • protocolturean hour ago
      Why would you feel guilty. Its just information. Go get it.
    • 3 hours ago
      undefined
  • fewgrehrehre5 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • kspacewalk25 hours ago
      I'm torn about your comment. On the one hand, the context is interesting. On the other hand, it's almost unrelated to the substance of this post of his. I suppose there's a general anti-mainstream-science bias propagating through national-conservative/far-right/alt-right circles, specifically about how the world of academia functions. However, the facts of this post about how a corner of academia functions ought to stand up or fall down independently of all that. 95-100% of this is facts (falsifiable, and maybe wrong, but stated as such), and a tiny percentage is opinion.
      • fewgrehrehre5 hours ago
        Oh yeah, it's a fine post! Interesting read. But I don't think it's that silly to say that success for a person who espouses these views is success for the views themselves, and that a tone-shift might arise if gradually, more and more posts about inoffensive topics written by "Mr. Don't Worry About It ;)" make their way onto the front page.
      • Pay083 hours ago
        To be honest, the skepticism around non-STEM fields is completely deserved. It's a complete shithole.
  • anonaaksldraf6 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • bpt36 hours ago
      What troubling language and slurs are you referring to exactly?

      I didn't see anything "troubling" (let alone "extremely troubling") or anything that would indicate that anyone other than the implicated authors have an integrity issue.

      • ZoneZealot6 hours ago
        I think GP was referring to https://www.chrisbrunet.com/s/politics/archive?sort=new and https://www.theamericanconservative.com/author/christopher-b...

        I didn't immediately see a red flag that would make me discount all of their work. It's clear what the author's general opinions are. They're entitled to them of course.

      • m00x6 hours ago
        > created: 33 minutes ago

        A lot of these new accounts seem to be AI.

        • ZoneZealot6 hours ago
          I don't any signs that it's a bot, or that the comment was LLM generated. It's pretty safe to assume they made an alt to make that comment, as they didn't want to take a negative opinion towards a conservative author on their main. i.e. trying to avoid controversy.
          • bpt36 hours ago
            This website is slightly to the right of reddit these days; what exactly would expressing a negative opinion about a conservative blogger do to their main account?

            My suspicion was some affiliation with a current or future implicated individual.

            • Windchaser5 hours ago
              I figured it was someone who just cared enough to make an account.

              Yeah, this article seems fine, but looking at some of chris brunet's other articles has me a bit O.O

              First time I've run into this with a HN share in a good long while. Not that the article shouldn't have been shared, ofc, but.. it certainly puts me on guard.

            • bluefirebrand5 hours ago
              It's been some time since I spent any time on Reddit but last I recall, slightly to the right of Reddit would imply pretty left still

              Has Reddit changed that much?

    • 6 hours ago
      undefined
  • blizdiddy6 hours ago
    Makes sense. Economics isn’t science, it’s numerology that justifies exploiting workers.
    • azan_4 hours ago
      Your comment is funny because it’s completely opposite - economics has generally great track record and fraudulent results typically do not survive for long. Citation cartels and paper mills exist in all disciplines.
      • lazyasciiart3 hours ago
        Behavioral economics is challenging this - see the fake data published in a 2012 Ariely paper and identified in 2021.
      • greenchair4 hours ago
        the economists have a terrible record which is why public opinion of them is low. I'd guess equal weight to meterologists forecasting.
        • LeifCarrotson4 hours ago
          Do meteorologists have a terrible record?

          I've literally got the NWS hourly forecast and radar open in the next tab over to watch when and where the rain will be clear as I plan my route home...

        • drdecaan hour ago
          Meteorologist are fairly accurate. People have a bias to remember more the times they were wrong.
        • protocolturean hour ago
          Really? I see the whole "Yes the entire body of work, across multiple schools of economic thought, and every examination of the history demonstrates rent controls dont work. But we think this time, perhaps they will work"

          to "Once again rent controls have failed" pipeline has been pretty firmly established.

      • cess114 hours ago
        Does it, really? There haven't been any problematic issues since economists and their lore became a dominant influence over politics that could be attributed to this influence?
        • Pay083 hours ago
          Let me guess, another "capitalism bad" tirade?
  • ChrisMarshallNY7 hours ago
    I am not arguing against the facts expressed in the piece. This is not an area in which I have any expertise.

    However, I am a bit uncomfortable with the pithy language used. It's possible (likely, even), that the fired editors deserve the pithiness, but it's still a bit weird to read that kind of prose, in a scientific context.

    • Lerc2 hours ago
      I'm with you on this. There's a difference between exposing wrongdoing and being antagonistic.

      Doing them both together increases the amplitude of the signal at the cost of reducing the integrity of the signal.

      If you wonder why the world is informationally too loud and too noisy these days, it's because everyone who does this is turning up the volume to be louder than others who are also, in turn, turning up the volume for the same reasons.

    • mklyachman6 hours ago
      This is an investigative substack, not a piece of academic literature. God forbid the author home some (admittedly, strong) opinions and speaks negatively about fraudsters.
      • mmoossan hour ago
        > This is an investigative substack, not a piece of academic literature.

        Professional news is usually written without expressing judgement and minimizing opinion.

        > fraudsters

        It's an allegation.

        The author only hurts themself: My impression is that they don't believet the fundamentals of truth and humanity: they are certainly partially wrong, could be very wrong, will never know the complete truth, and their judgment of others is too flawed to rely on. Also it seems they are acting more on their emotions and less on fact and reason.

        • an hour ago
          undefined
    • ChrisMarshallNY6 hours ago
      Well...the reactions were ... enlightening

      I certainly apologize for hurting feelings. That was not my intent.

      I've just learned (the hard way, of course, because how else do we learn?), that using this kind of terminology, even though we may be feeling quite pithy, gives ammo to those that wish to discount us.

      This goes double, in my experience, for any context that prizes objectivity and articulate discussion.

    • JMKH427 hours ago
      I am amazed that every time evil is exposed there are people who have to jump in and wonder "Are we being a bit too mean to the evil though?"

      Makes me wonder if these people are just evil themselves.

      • mananaysiempre6 hours ago
        There are few things I’m afraid of more than a man that thinks himself righteous, because there is very little that such a man would be unwilling to do.

        So it makes sense to be cautious when I find myself feeling like one, or being pulled along by the emotions of another who does.

        • idle_zealot6 hours ago
          You're not wrong about the danger posed, but take a step back and consider who this attitude helps. The greatest beneficiaries of a culture in which good faith and civility are unconditionally granted for fear of misguided righteous anger is a paradise for fraudsters and bad faith actors. I think we're seeing that world now.
          • mattw21216 hours ago
            Spot on. Leaders in my company love to tout the line "assume good faith". If you say anything that indicates someone else is not operating in good faith, you are deemed the bad actor. This allows bad actors to run absolutely rampant.
            • bpt35 hours ago
              You can assume good faith initially without having to tolerate a bad actor who invalidates that assumption.

              It seems like your company leadership missed that part of the lesson.

              • idle_zealot4 hours ago
                I would argue that there's an incentive to "miss" that part of the lesson.
          • trinsic24 hours ago
            This is a good point. I tend to be careful not to fall into this trap myself, but it doesn't really do any good to call it out in public. it ends up empowering the bad actors. Thank you for this awareness.
          • Pay083 hours ago
            That's the same line of reasoning racists use to justify their hatred. I will not have a part in it.
            • hilariously3 hours ago
              This is almost random its such an odd response. Unconditionally granting good faith should be given to people because... racism.
              • Pay083 hours ago
                Do you know the amount of times I've been lectured about "Holocaust Privilege" using the same line of logic? Because I don't, I have long lost count.
                • idle_zealot2 hours ago
                  There's a depressingly common tactic of using the Holocaust to defend current genocide and atrocities, one that has been very effective until recently. It's exactly the kind of strategy that always assuming good faith allows for, and what I'm warning against. Unfortunately, the backlash against allowing bad actors to use victims as a shield is emboldening bigots. Another knock-on danger of the culture of unlimited civility is that it will eventually end and the overcorrection will see a lot undeserving people hurt.
                  • ABCLAW27 minutes ago
                    This isn't the danger with assuming good faith.

                    It's the danger with not updating your behavior when the balance of probabilities shows that the individual/group/organization you're dealing with is acting in bad faith.

                    Our modern era has so many megaphones blaring into the void that it's become significantly more difficult to determine which ones are overtly lying. Accordingly, it's far more difficult to establish a consensus about who's operating in bad faith.

                    Again, the failure point isn't with the assumption of good faith. It's with not recognizing bad faith when it's made manifest.

                    • idle_zealot12 minutes ago
                      I agree, that's why I'm talking about unconditional assumption of good faith. I strongly believe in assuming good faith by default, and also in the importance of updating your priors as new information becomes available.
                  • TheOtherHobbes2 hours ago
                    Tone policing is a time-honoured tactic for devaluing valid opposition.
                  • Pay082 hours ago
                    Go fuck yourself you piece of shit.
                    • idle_zealotan hour ago
                      Aw, that's too bad. My comment as originally drafted floated that you might be participating in that tactic, but I changed it because it could've been interpreted as accusatory. I offered you an assumption of good faith, and got burned for it again. Eventually this will train really bad behavior. I promise to try my best to keep it focused on the knowing defenders of genocide and fight the tide of antisemitism you're causing.
          • mmoossan hour ago
            > consider who this attitude helps

            It helps the good people, who do good and influence their society to do the same, and live in a good society. The best societies give the accused the full protection of the law, and give them fair trials. The problematic ones have mob rule.

            Much of what you write assumes the OP author and you know what evil is, with certainty. That is the critical and most dangerous flaw.

      • blueflow5 hours ago
        It comes from having the sort of parents whose behavior warrants this kind of suspicions.
      • pessimizer6 hours ago
        I've decided that it's a weird reversed counterpart to "impostor syndrome" (when you secretly think you're not that good while trying your best to maintain a professional standard.)

        I think there's this sort of "moral impostor syndrome" where people who carefully work to present an image of themselves as good people are totally willing to participate in fraud or theft at any level - the only consideration is whether they will be caught, because they value the appearance of being good people (and of course, that appearance gives them more opportunities to commit fraud and theft safely.) If they want to do something and there's no way they'll be caught, they'll do it 100% of the time.

        This is the only way I can understand people who refer to fraud as a "mistake." They see other people caught in a fraud that they can imagine that they themselves might have done, because they also wouldn't have thought that they would have ever been caught. The "mistake" was evaluating the chances of the success of a fraud badly.

        The fact that they relate to these people also makes them want to give them a second chance, just as they would want to be able to recover their careers if any of their past (or future) frauds had become "mistakes."

        "There but for the grace of God go I."

        It's terrible. It incentivizes evil. The desperation to give people a second chance to expiate one's own secret sins by proxy creates a system where people only initially draw attention through frauds, then get caught, then get second chances. Meanwhile, people who didn't participate in fraud never get noticed. It's a perverse incentive that filters for trash. Do anything to get your name out there, then the fact that your name is out there gets you into the conversation.

        Meanwhile, somebody is scolding you for being upset about it: "You're just perfect I guess. Never made a mistake." Fraud is not a mistake. You do it on purpose.

      • ChrisMarshallNY6 hours ago
        Yup. You got me. Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
        • pfdietz6 hours ago
          ChatGPT?
          • embedding-shape6 hours ago
            Unlikely, but wouldn't surprise me if ChatGPT sounds a bit like ChrisMarshallNY given the amount of comments they've made here over the years :)
          • ChrisMarshallNY6 hours ago
            Seriously? Try looking at the profile.
    • fancyfredbot4 hours ago
      I thought the caption "looking normal" was possibly a bit unnecessary.

      Then again, I also found it rather funny. I suspect this is because I am a bad person.

    • _will_6 hours ago
      Maybe I'm just naive or dense, but I'm not seeing language I'd be concerned about in the article? Help me get calibrated, is there something in particular that bothers you? or just a general vibe?
      • ajcpan hour ago
        > Despite working at a terrible school

        Literally zero need for that; none. And it's that kind of language that calls into question the authors motives. I went from "Excellent reporting here" to "This guy is emotional and not a reliable source of information" in 6 words.