72 pointsby sohkamyung5 hours ago8 comments
  • deckar01a few seconds ago
    There is another solution: Get a machine with flow control and a pressure gauge on the group head. You can saturate the puck at low pressure to avoid dry pockets, then ramp the flow rate up until the group head pressure peaks. If the pressure starts to drop you can increase the flow to maintain the group head pressure.

    As for the 6 bar course grind theory: You may maximize the extraction of soluble coffee mass, but the concentration will be lower. It does not take very much extra water to ruin the taste and texture of a latte.

  • zahma3 hours ago
    In the pour-over section, the authors hit on a good point about height and creating a vortex in the slurry. Water temperature and flow rate are important variables too. Combined with the coffee grounds' quality (i.e. grind consistency) and whether it has fines or lots of chaff will also dictate how long it takes to draw down and therefore whether the pour height's effects will change if static.

    I do like the advice grind coarser and extract with more water -- that's made my V60 coffee quality fairly consistent, but everyone's mileage will vary based on how they like their coffee and the roast profile.

    There are so many other variables that didn't get a mention: Coffee varietal

    Water hardness (and even which other ions are present in the water) and its effects on acids and other compounds that highlight certain varietal's defining characteristics.

    Vessel temperatures.

    The filters used (materials, paper thinness).

    Pouring patterns (circular, concentric, hypotrochoid, more?)

    The filter shape and material.

    Even the grinder used conical vs. flat burrs and high RPMs vs. low RPMs creates palpable flavor profile differences.

    The rabbit hole goes deep and continues to expand.

    • Broken_Hippo2 hours ago
      Even the grinder used conical vs. flat burrs and high RPMs vs. low RPMs creates palpable flavor profile differences

      I bought a good grinder about 6 months ago - a Fellow. I changed nothing other than the grinder and my coffee improved. And it is so much more enjoyable to use: Less mess and static, less noise, and everything feels nice to use.

      • zikduruqe10 minutes ago
        No doubt. I found a Fellow Ode cheap, and upgraded to the Gen 2 burrs. My coffee went from a little better than 2 am truck stop coffee, to something better than you can get at a cafe.

        I am using a Breville precision brewer, but would love to upgrade to a Moccamaster one day.

      • rkomorn2 hours ago
        I've somewhat recently found out that I enjoy hand grinding beans and having the resulting coffee quite a bit.

        There's something about the sound, the smell, and the feeling once the last bean is ground, that just works for me.

        Maybe some years ago I'd have chastised my future self for enjoying something I certainly couldn't identify in a blind test, but nowadays I'm all for "whatever works."

    • amarantan hour ago
      Knowing how cool and nerdy coffee enthusiasts can get, do you know if any studies that support the rpm grinding difference in flavour?

      I know a coffee grower who put his beans through a spectrometer to determine whether sun drying his beans actually altered the flavour profile compared to machine drying. He wanted to eliminate placebo mostly I think. He could demonstrate a clear difference in the spectrometer between sun dried and machine dried beans, with both batches of beans coming from the same field, the same year.

      I just love how nerdy coffee nerds are!

      • AnthonBerg3 minutes ago
        I propose a mechanism that brings about the difference:

        Higher speed cracks the brittle beans differently, smashing them into a higher proportion of fines.

        Fine and coarse particles yield very different proportions of compounds into the water – the less soluble stuff kind of only washes off the surface of the ground particles. Finer particles, more surface, more of the hard-to-extract less soluble stuff.

    • encom2 hours ago
      Two of my nerdy passions are coffee and HiFi, and I've observed some degree of... let's call it "magical thinking" in both. Obsessing and over-exaggerating minute details of the process. The extremist audiophiles to a much more ludicrous and comical degree admittedly.

      Brewing coffee and listening to music becomes much more of a ritual process, than a task grounded in reason, and the end result is unlikely to pass a double blind test.

      "Let people enjoy things!"

      Yes, yes. But if you're buying audiophile fuses or power cables, or you're using TDS meters, a 5000$ grinder or if your kettle has an app, in the words of one of the great thinkers of our time: it's time to stop.

      Buy a reasonably priced burr grinder, an Aeropress or decent pour-over, and some nice quality coffee, and you will be drinking better coffee than 95% of people.

      • fabian2kan hour ago
        There's certainly people that focus too much on minor details. And you really don't need to go into the 4-digit in spending to get very good coffee (especially if you don't want Espresso). But I was a bit surprised how much small details can matter in brewing coffee.

        I'm using an Aeropress and an 1ZPresso handgrinder. I found that it helped a lot to do things exactly the same way each time. It reduced variability and made it easier to adjust a parameter like grind size. In particular I found stirring to be a really finicky parameter with a potentially large effect. If I stirred vigorously without changing anything else, the coffee got noticeably bitter. I switched to not stirring at all, it's mixed plenty just by pouring the water. Makes the workflow easier and reduces variability.

        So while I think there's plenty of ritual around coffee that has no real effect, I suspect the value lies in keeping to exactly the same method and performing all steps the same way each time.

      • seemazean hour ago
        I recently replied to a thread about La Marzocco espresso machines[0] regarding the value proposition of expensive coffee gear. I think the mistake in magical thinking is the attempt to rationalize the high cost through a comparative cost benefit analysis with retail (non-commercial) competition.

        "I just overhauled a la marzocco sitting in my kitchen. People often inquire about whether it's worth buying an espresso machine for the home, or if it's a good investment as a coffee connoisseur.

        My reply is always that it was the best money I've ever spent and the worst investment I've ever made. It's a lifestyle choice, and a questionable one at that. But one I'd make again every time given the opportunity."

        [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47844085#47885805

      • Theodores2 hours ago
        It is time to stop!!!

        ...and I stopped. I didn't get to the $5000 grinder stage, but the annual costs of coffee were alarming. I went for black tea instead, served in insulated mugs and flasks. Originally the plan was to just have coffee as a treat when meeting friends in coffee serving establishments, however, that doesn't happen. I buy coffee for whomever I am with and keep my flask below the table, still spending, but not consuming.

        For all the thousands of coffee cups had, I can't think of any contenders for the 'greatest one'. Hence, despite the rituals and expense, it was all forgettable. Yet I was so insistent on getting my fix.

        After some time away, I can see coffee for what it is. There are too many children in the south doing things with coffee beans for grown adults in the north. Shouldn't they be in school? Tea isn't quite the same, picking leaves is different, even though I haven't done it myself, there are worse jobs to have.

        The paraphernalia aspect is also something I now reject. Fancy coffee machines and even the Aeropress just says 'it's time to stop'.

        Similarly, the elevation of the job of 'coffee maker' to the grand role of 'barista' irks me. We place the 'barista' up there with the greatest composers, rocket surgeons and rock gods. Sure, a 'barista' might be your greatest ever hero if all you do is drink coffee and the only work in your country is in customer service, but I don't see the 'barista' job as worthy of a pedestal, particularly in countries where the pay comes primarily from tips.

        Then there is everything else, the take-out cup, the animal excretions, the added sugar. My comfort drink of old, a frothy latte in a plastic lined paper cup, is not what my body really needed. You have got the stimulant from the caffeine, and you don't need stimulants if you get all your nutrients. The mix of milk and sugar would be considered wrong by a true coffee drinker, regardless, you have got diabetes in a cup right there, with saturated fats and 'free' sugars. You are just asking for arteries to be blocked and for dementia to happen.

        Whether aware of it or not, there is status with beverages. We all want to eat from the king's table, not the animal's stable. I can't say I impressed anyone with coffee, whether making it or drinking it. One lesson learned, make coffee for people and it just becomes expected. Being a keen coffee drinker doesn't make you cool. I am not saying that drinking just black tea makes one cool, but, for people that are coffee dependent, with other beverages consumed, the idea of drinking just tea, with no additives, is crazy talk.

        Each to their own, but I am seeing so many upsides to 'tea only' that I see no reason to change, apart from tannin on teeth, which can be a problem if also consuming lots of colourful spices. The money aspect is an invisible upside, it is not like I get a lump sum for all that money saved, even though it is thousands a year. The lack of waste is definitely really good, since I don't have glass jars, single use cups, plastic milk cartons and more coffee-related trash to dispose off. Tea is actually valuable in the second life for composting reasons.

        Anyway, having been away from coffee for quite a few years, I still appreciate the smell, but I am not tempted. To me the obsession with coffee is amusing, much like seeing what some cats will do with catnip, it just seems a bit unnecessary. My taste buds have adapted, I moved on.

        • cf100clunk6 minutes ago
          SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: Caffeine withdrawal can cause chronic, acute migraine headaches.

          Satire of such package labels, but unfortunately true for some coffee devotees.

  • snarfy3 hours ago
    And here I am microwaving a cup of yesterday's brew of drip coffee that sat on the burner for two hours.
    • derwiki2 hours ago
      Same, but I appreciate when folks go deep into something they obviously care about
    • cf100clunk22 minutes ago
      A friend does that too, but then adds evaporated milk.
    • gond2 hours ago
      Had a good laugh! That could be me.
  • mr_mitm4 hours ago
    > The bottom line of the team’s experiments and mathematical modelling is that to get the most reproducible shots just use less coffee and grind it more coarsely.

    This seems to go against conventional wisdom, which says that less coffee will reduce brewing time and a coarser grind will also reduce brewing time, and consensus seems to be that you want a brewing time somewhere between 20 and 30 seconds. Or did I misunderstand something?

    Anyway, the reasoning seems sound, so I'm going to have to give this a try.

    • bee_rider3 hours ago
      These was actually a sort of fun and popular research paper about this,

      https://www.cell.com/matter/fulltext/S2590-2385(19)30410-2

      They suggest a courser size and less pressure to avoid channeling.

      I’ve been using this technique for a while, I think the results are better (but of course there’s a strong bias when people think they are doing the cleverer thing in food preparation).

      For light roasts I hold the pressure at around 1 bar for ~30 seconds before increasing to 7 or so.

      • mr_mitm2 hours ago
        Ah, too bad my machine doesn't let me set the pressure
    • sgc3 hours ago
      They failed to mention the important point, that you have to be able to reduce the pressure to increase the grind size. I am convinced the best espresso you can make is at 6 bar, since you can grind the coarsest possible. It comes out sweeter and richer at the same time.
      • criddell3 hours ago
        Some people go all the way down to 1 or 2 bars (soup espresso). I've mostly seen it in the context of very light roasts and I tend to buy darker roasts so I really haven't spent much time investigating it.

        I did see a video on americano's recently where steaming the water to heat it rather than using a kettle or water from the espresso machine's boiler made a better drink. That does intrigue me and I'll probably give it a try this weekend.

        Lately I've been making mostly decaf and it's really hard to get a good shot no matter what I try. Drip coffee comes out great, but my decaf espresso always seems to have a real harshness. Beans are fresh and my water is good, so I'm thinking it's time to replace the burrs in my grinder.

        • sgc2 hours ago
          1-2 bars isn't really espresso, it's a moka - which can be quite good in its own right. It falls into the genus of pressurized brewing though, so same genus different species. There's a no man's land from 3-5 bars that is not really used and might be worth exploring, but most 'standards' consider 6 bar the minimum to be a true espresso.
          • criddell2 hours ago
            The SCAA (Specialty Coffee Association of America) has an even more restrictive definition[1]:

            > Espresso is a 25–35ml (.85–1.2 ounce [×2 for double]) beverage prepared from 7–9 grams (14–18 grams for a double) of coffee through which clean water of 195°–205°F (90.5°–96.1°C) has been forced at 9–10 atmospheres of pressure, and where the grind of the coffee is such that the brew time is 20–30 seconds. While brewing, the flow of espresso will appear to have the viscosity of warm honey and the resulting beverage will exhibit a thick, dark golden crema.

            I have no problem with calling soup espresso. It's ground coffee brewed under pressure in an espresso machine and that's good enough for me.

            [1]:https://sca.coffee/sca-news/25-magazine/issue-3/defining-eve...

            • sgcan hour ago
              Of all the standards, I find the SCAA the least useful. That was the standard 30 years ago, but nobody serious about improving their craft is brewing such a watered down espresso anymore, and a 1:2 ratio is the most common one. So 15g for 30ml. And for pressure, modern consensus is that 9 bar is the high upper limit. 10 almost always leads to a harsh cup. I find the 6 bar lower limit to be a tipping point in the concentration, such that lower pressures are more similar to drip than to espresso - the viscosity and mouthfeel changes dramatically. So I can't agree that whatever comes out of an espresso machine should be called espresso. But we are debating vernacular here, I just hope you enjoy your cup of coffee!
        • zimpenfish3 hours ago
          > steaming the water to heat it rather than using a kettle or water from the espresso machine's boiler made a better drink

          Was it Mr Hoffmann[0]? He has a decent explanation for why this might be the case too (and does an experiment later which points to it maybe being dissolved gases.)

          [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw

          • criddell2 hours ago
            Yes, that's the video. He doesn't seem to be a fan of americanos. It's one of my favorites so I'm pretty interested in new ideas for one of the most basic drinks.
      • roflyear3 hours ago
        Well, pressure builds when the coffee bed restricts the flow of water. So if you don't have much restriction (really coarse grind) you're not going to build pressure :) so you don't have to actually change any settings to get a reduced pressure at the puck.

        But I also do enjoy ~6bar shots using a traditional lever style machine.

        • sgc2 hours ago
          Yes of course, but by dropping opv pressure on most home machines that also drops flow due to opv bleed off. If you have your opv at 9-10 bar you get a full flow shot on a coarser grind - which is way too fast. You need to drop pressure until you can keep your wet time the same (I use the pretty standard 17g coffee 34 ml out, 34 seconds wet, upped to 40 seconds because I use preinfusion). If you have a fancier machine you can just adjust flow directly, but then you can set pressure directly so why wouldn't you do that too.
    • roflyear3 hours ago
      You're spot on, but this coarser, faster-style shot is called the "turbo shot" and you don't actually have to use less coffee, you can actually use more - just compensate your grind to brew quickly. You will get more consistent results here, but they're very different from traditional espresso.

      But, I think for any recipe, "total brew time" is just a way to communicate contact time with water, and should NOT be a goal unless you're trying to copy what someone else did with that same coffee, and is IMO more important for pour over in that regard than espresso.

    • BiteCode_dev3 hours ago
      Reproducibility doesn't mean good.

      I can make bad coffee every time myself by putting 2 spoons of vinegar in it.

    • FrustratedMonky4 hours ago
      Yeah.

      "most reproducible" -> Does not mean good.

      A lot of generic weak coffee is 'consistent', but not 'good'.

      • mr_mitm4 hours ago
        Sorry, maybe I should have quoted the next line as well:

        > Pabst echoes that advice: “My recommendation for people at home, without knowing anything they are doing, 90% chance that if you use less coffee and grind a little coarser [your coffee] will actually taste better.”

        So it's not just about consistency, but also quality.

        • soco3 hours ago
          "taste better" does not mean quality either. What do I know about their tastes, they're scientists not baristas (in the article baristas were only asked about process options). Also they didn't discover anything new, just confirmed what everybody was telling them. And not at least, there are different methods of making coffee, while they smeared their espresso machine results interpretation over everything - like for instance to make Turkish coffee (aka pot) you must grind it the finest and use more.
      • canes1234563 hours ago
        Reproducible is necessary but not sufficient for consistently good coffee. If you can’t reproducible what you did, you aren’t able to make changes to improve over time.

        This is why I think the Aiden is underrated. It way more consistent than I was when doing pour over but still lets me tweak variables.

      • roflyear3 hours ago
        Good is totally up to the person's tastes, anyway. Turbo style shots are the end-all-be-all for a lot of people who enjoy espresso. For other people, they hate it, for a multitude of reasons.

        A pet peeve of mine is when people mention "weak" coffee. What does this mean?

  • urxvtcd4 hours ago
    For an entire book about the topic, see "The physics of filter coffee" by Jonathan Gagné.

    Also

    > This can be achieved using an espresso machine (figure 1), or with smaller contraptions at much lower pressures such as a moka pot or AeroPress.

    Please, just stop. They're not even remotely close.

  • roflyear3 hours ago
    I roast coffee professionally, and there's just a few things that will make up 98% of your coffee quality, and none of them have to do with technique. And without these no level of technique will ever compensate.

    1) Sourcing high quality coffee to the roast level you enjoy. Try a lot of different coffees - from "Ultra Light" to "American Light" to "Medium" to "Dark" - and find what you enjoy, then find a roaster that produces those coffees to a high quality standard. There will not be a ton of these roasters in your country. Maybe even just a couple, even if you live in the US.

    2) A good grinder, of course. Fortunately in the last few years this is wayyyy more accessible. There are pretty good options starting around $300, and the workflow isn't terrible for these picks, either. Of course the sky is the limit here, but it's really vital to a good cup.

    3) Good water. You'll want to either find a bottled water brand you like for brewing, or use an reverse osmosis (can be a gravity type) system and remineralize it. Cafes do this (if they are any good) and you should too. There's a chance your tap is great for coffee, but only if you're pretty lucky.

    4) Decent brewing equipment. The cheapest is a v60 for pour over. You can make good coffee with pretty much any machine, but some will get in your way and cause you to have to fuss with them much more.

    Then, after those, is technique - and the most important part of technique is really grind size and water temperature (I suggest you do not go above 88c in most cases).

    • cf100clunk12 minutes ago
      > There's a chance your tap is great for coffee, but only if you're pretty lucky.

      I've worked and RV'ed throughout the USA and Canada. Canadian urban areas tend to have good quality tap water for coffee making. Canadians know that in only a few seconds the water will run truly cold. The USA's tap water as one gets further south from the Canadian border has generally dreadful taste and temperature, meaning chilled, bottled water is a necessity.

  • aboardRat43 hours ago
    The HTTP 418 I'm a teapot status response code indicates that the server refuses to brew coffee because it is, permanently, a teapot. A combined coffee/tea pot that is temporarily out of coffee should instead return 503.
    • soopypoos2 hours ago
      I pity the fool who's never sucked coffee from a teapot
  • NoSalt3 hours ago
    > "It takes more than 150 people to make a cup of coffee, from farmer to barista."

    I do not, nor have I ever, utilized the services of a barista. I make coffee at home or I purchase it from Wawa, Sheetz, 7-Eleven, whatnot.