55 pointsby mooreds8 hours ago10 comments
  • kstrauser7 hours ago
    Ok, I think Matt’s goofy for various reasons. From just what this article says, I think he’s right on this one. This is my understanding of it:

    * The dev team has a disagreement about putting one of the company’s own projects on the available plugins carousel or whatever inside their main product.

    * They eventually decide not to.

    * The CEO says “this has been an important part of our product for 20 years. It’s silly that we’re even debating this”, and put it there anyway.

    And that’s about it? Based only on what I read here, there wasn’t any compelling engineering reason not to do a thing, and the CEO made a product decision to do it. That sounds like something I’ve heard 1,000 times at different shops and I’m not sure what the problem is.

    Perhaps I’m misreading this, and the main point isn’t “CEO overrides valiant dev team”, but “CEO makes recalcitrant dev team stop bikeshedding”.

    I say this out of no love for Matt’s… “interesting”… decision making the last couple of years. This sounds reasonable to me though.

    • AnonEM00se7 hours ago
      Leaving out the optics and personalities and internal politics, the biggest issue I see is that they added this during the RC phase, which is against their policy. It should have been pushed to 7.1.
      • qingcharles5 hours ago
        They just wound back half the RC for Wordpress 7 at the last second to tweak some features for Matt. I don't know if he's right about it, but they did it.
      • asdfasgasdgasdg7 hours ago
        Business objectives should override engineering policies when the two are in conflict, at least if you're a business owner who wants to make money.
        • kstrauser6 hours ago
          > Business objectives should override engineering policies when the two are in conflict

          This is an excellent way to get stuck with only the engineers sucky enough to have to put up with that, which is not the norm.

          However, in this specific case, it looks like engineers were making a product decision, not an engineering one, and management decided to make a different product decision. That feels categorically different than "mauve has more RAM".

          • 4 hours ago
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        • luckylion6 hours ago
          Business is wordpress.com, this is wordpress.org -- explicitly not part of Automattic but an "independent" open source project.

          Obviously it isn't, but that's what Matt likes to pretend.

          • graemep4 hours ago
            This is something people seem to miss. His position as CEO of Automattic creates a huge conflict of interest with his position at the non-profit foundation.

            This is an example: the foundation's code gives special treatment to an Automattic product.

        • stackghost6 hours ago
          >Business objectives should override engineering policies when the two are in conflict, at least if you're a business owner who wants to make money.

          This bush league kind of attitude is why people insinuate that most software development is not "real engineering".

          When Boeing or NASA lets making money get in the way of good engineering practice, people die.

          • mooreds6 hours ago
            > most software development is not "real engineering".

            Most software development doesn't have anywhere near the real world impact of the Boeing/NASA engineering you reference.

            Good engineering practice recognizes the risks and scales the effort to match it.

            A CRUD app for internal users has a different set of requirements than a revenue generating SaaS app, just like a backyard fence has different building criteria than a highway bridge.

            • stackghost4 hours ago
              Sure, I understand the stakes are lower for blog plugins than for aircraft.

              But being a professional means you do the thing even when the stakes are low. You don't decide to cut corners because you feel like it, or because it's more profitable. Mullenweg is not professional.

              • kelnos3 hours ago
                That's not what being a professional means at all.

                You adjust your approach depending on the stakes. That shouldn't be a controversial take.

                You're using "cutting corners" as a pejorative, but ultimately if the stakes are low, you may -- perfectly reasonably -- decide to allocate less time/resources to particular activities, and more to others. You can call that "cutting corners", and you'd be right, but there's nothing necessarily wrong about that: it depends on the circumstances. And there's certainly nothing "unprofessional" about it.

                For the mostly-vibe-coded script to reencode a bunch of my own video files to save disk space, I skimmed the result to make sure that it wasn't going to overwrite or delete anything it shouldn't. Cutting corners? Absolutely. Perfectly fine and sufficient? Absolutely.

                For the software that I write that I intend to distribute to others, that could cause data loss or other unpleasant problems for them if I get it wrong, I write the code myself, I understand how it works, and I might write tests and/or get someone else to review it, depending on my own judgment of what needs to be done.

                Recognizing the difference between the the situations in the prior two paragraphs is what it means to be a professional.

                • stackghost2 hours ago
                  >You adjust your approach depending on the stakes. That shouldn't be a controversial take.

                  At no time have I suggested that one cannot adjust one's approach. That's a straw man you invented.

                  I'm refuting the point that business considerations should always trump engineering considerations because profit.

                  • kstrauseran hour ago
                    Sure, but in this case, the engineering consideration was whether a specific plugin should be added to the list of other suggested plugins. It was literally just a business decision of whether to configure it to be one of the featured options users might want to install.
              • asdfasgasdgasdg4 hours ago
                > But being a professional means you do the thing even when the stakes are low.

                Not the way I understand "being a professional." All engineering, and all professions, entail the balancing of interests. There are some hard and fast rules*, like "don't do things that will kill your users." And there are some other things that are more guidelines than absolutes, such as "we don't ship feature changes in release candidates." Serious organizations understand that sometimes guidelines like the latter need to be violated for overriding business purposes.

                *Even the "don't kill your users" thing is not an absolute. No car is perfectly safe, for example. We could add three more feet of crumple zone to the front and the back, but we don't, because even in safety tradeoffs have to be considered.

              • tomnipotent4 hours ago
                What does cutting corners have anything to do with the topic at hand? The situation isn't about devs getting the time to do something right, it's about programmers making a non-engineering decision that was overruled by the business in the businesses best interest. That's perfectly reasonable.
              • zephen4 hours ago
                > But being a professional means you do the thing even when the stakes are low.

                Being a professional means that you adjust what things you do according to the stakes.

                For example, in software dev, you usually have tests for the code. Do you have tests for the tests? No? Why not? Why aren't you doing "the thing?"

                In chip development, I usually had tests for the tests, because the stakes were higher. But I didn't usually have tests for the tests for the tests.

          • brobinson6 hours ago
            "died in a blogging accident"
            • balamatom5 hours ago
              RIP American democracy, we hardly knew ye.
    • graemep3 hours ago
      What you are missing here is that Matt (in his role running the project for the non-profit Wordpress Foundation) made a decision to overrule everyone else and favour a product from Automattic (CEO, Matt).
    • gmays4 hours ago
      Agree. And the meta point, after reading through to the core committer channel on the WP slack is that it's clear he's now more involved in the project again and making decisions. I haven't been involved for years, but while I was it seems he had other priorities (understandable).

      But the rapid changes from AI are an existential threat to the long-term viability of WP. Rather than bike shedding about something relatively trivial, they need to focus on the bigger issues, which it's apparent he's trying to do.

      Interestingly, the culture that sustained WP over the last 2 decades may now be working against it. Culture is really hard to change, but he now seems to have his 'wartime CEO' hat on trying to do it, which is the right move.

    • ookblah4 hours ago
      goofy is a pretty nice way of say he has a history of dressing up his shenanigans by literally... lying lol. the fact that wpengine debacle was framed as a defense of OSS should tell you a lot, probably don't even need to look at the details to know that it's usually him trying to profit while framing it as something moral.
      • kstrauser4 hours ago
        Notice the distinct lack of me sticking up for him outside this very specific case.
  • saghm7 hours ago
    It says a lot about what's been going on in the Wordpress ecosystem lately that I had never heard of Mullenweg before maybe a year or two ago, and now I immediately see his name and think "What's he done this time?" Probably very frustrating for many people who actually use the platform, but as someone who doesn't, it's almost morbidly fascinating watching the continued drama and wondering if and when any of it ends up hurting the bottom line enough that something changes. I've joked to my wife before that if they end to running into issues and sell Tumblr, and it follows the trend of how much cheaper it was the second time, it might mean we could just buy it ourselves and run it.
    • kstrauser7 hours ago
      Same here. I had no idea who he was before the WP Engine debacle. He’s been fascinating to watch for someone who enjoys the occasional low stakes, high drama public spat.
    • AlienRobot7 hours ago
      But what did he do this time, though? I don't understand it very well, but it sounds like they made an anti-spam solution the default? That is good, right? WP gets a lot of spam.
      • saghm5 hours ago
        This one certainly does seem to require a bit more direct knowledge of WP to interpret than I have compared to some of the others. It sounds like the strongest argument against it that is that he previously has been against plugins being listed in the default page and that he doesn't seem particularly open to having published guidelines for what merits being there by default, which means that what belongs there essentially is left up to whatever he decides with no one else having a clear picture of it.

        In a vacuum, probably not a huge deal, and maybe for people who actually use WP the idea that this is basically something up to a judgment call makes sense. At least from my outside perspective, it sounds a bit like what's on the default page is basically being left up to the whim of the CEO without any real concrete explanation, which would be mildly concerning even if the CEO wasn't someone who's been making the news a lot the past couple years from getting into pissing matches with competitors, causing 8.4% of his employees to take a blanket offer to leave: https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/automattic-workers-quit-...

        • luckylion4 hours ago
          I think the less charitable and more honest reading is: he wouldn't have allowed such a commit if it wasn't an Automattic product that benefits. He's been making very clear business decisions and forcing them into the foundation (which he controls) for a while (gutenberg was about wordpress.com's goal of competing with wix.com etc, not about wordpress.org), this is just one of the more aggressive ones, which is why it stands out.

          His usual response is "but we're also sponsoring .org with developers" ... yeah, that's true, with developers who do Automattic's bidding and ensure that .org is pursuing .com's needs. He'd have to pay those developers either way, but this way he can call it a charitable donation.

          • saghm4 hours ago
            Fair point, although I'd also add that preferential treatment for first-party products is sadly not that surprising when it comes to open source from for-profit companies. It's something that would be disappointing but probably not enough to make me able to recognize this guy's name if he hadn't already been going even further in trying to directly control the ecosystem than this (and causing a bunch of employees to leave in the process)
  • markx27 hours ago
    Akismet makes money for Automattic / Matt.

    Comment spam is terrible and will continue to get worse.

    Decent alternatives exist.

    Increasing the visibility of Akismet should help increase revenue.

    This is 100% a financial move.

    • stevoski6 hours ago
      What are those decent alternatives to Akismet?

      I went looking earlier this year and found nothing even close to Akismet on a price-to-effectiveness basis.

  • 0xbadcafebee4 hours ago
    Bro really needs an assistant to write his e-mails/comments for him. Every time he talks, people like his company less.

    This is also more proof that open source owned by a company will never do what a community wants. Sure you can patch a bug if you fork the code, but nobody wants to do that, so it's not much different than using a proprietary product. Better to use open source not owned by a company, as the incentives are aligned with functionality rather than corporate profit.

  • neya4 hours ago
    Maybe the right to time to Ask HN: are you ready for a high performance bullshit-free Wordpress replacement yet? One that has everything batteries included so you don't need plugins for the most part? I would love to hear your thoughts on what your non-negotiables are from a CMS in 2026 and what features are important to you.
    • fontain4 hours ago
      There are endless examples of very good CMS software out there already. WordPress is the plugins, WordPress is a website builder that is ubiquitous because of the plugins.

      If you don’t need WordPress, you can choose from thousands of other options.

  • j456 hours ago
    Maybe someone will put LLMs on Wordpress and make a new backwards compatible one.
  • drcongo7 hours ago
    What is a "connector" in this context?
  • AlienRobot7 hours ago
    >Automattic-sponsored core committer Jorge Costa

    >Fueled-sponsored core committer Peter Wilson

    >Bluehost-sponsored core committer Jonathan Desrosiers

    >Human Made-sponsored core committer John Blackbourn

    This is a terrifying way to describe people.

    • mooreds7 hours ago
      It does make the implicit explicit though, right? Each of these folks have a personal viewpoint but also represent a corporate viewpoint.
    • kelnos3 hours ago
      In a vacuum, yes, that seems weird. But in this context I think it's important to disclose who writes their paychecks so it's easier to understand what their biases might be.
    • nixosbestos7 hours ago
      Why? People are referred to as committers everywhere. I like the transparency and credit this gives to the ecosystem users helping fund development.

      When I did OSS work paid for by my employer, I was careful to note and credit who paid for the PR.

    • micromacrofoot6 hours ago
      At a dinner party, sure, but if anything we should be this transparent in business and political contexts more often. Who's paying your bills is often very important when outsiders are weighing our choices.
    • renewiltord7 hours ago
      People on the Internet are just so dramatic. "Terrifying". Yes, indeed, this induces "terror", abject fear. Give me a break. At worst it's slightly cringe-worthy. This treadmill of dysphemisms is honestly annoying. At this point, all actions are described in extreme terms as if they're life changing when they're only mildly quirky.
  • themafia4 hours ago
    > It is pathological that we keep attacking me and Automattic who have by any measure given the most.

    "I'm so self important I've decided I get to order you to do illogical things."

    Some people see leadership as a responsibility. Some people see it as a chit.

    I really detest the latter group.

  • nixosbestos7 hours ago
    I guess I'm confused about Matt wanting to "right the ship" so to speak, while also shoving this through. (Idgaf, it's a product call ultimately)

    But it seems the clean, sustainable, long-term way to do this was to have the akismet plugin simply self-register. Why was this hack easier than just doing that?

    God I love this place, a simple fking question gets downvoted.