50 pointsby mefengl3 hours ago14 comments
  • rock_artist5 minutes ago
    > When I was younger I used to think more negatively about jobs, I even called it the jobs problem in my 2019 agentic coding startup template. I have since come around, the point of a society is the flourishing of its inhabitants.

    That’s the key. The world is a delicate fabric that changes over time.

    It’s nice (or frustrating) reading opinions. Forecasting the future is tricky.

    While the world and us humans waste our time arguing, conflicting or dreaming, earth and the universe can easily introduce earthquakes, meteors and other unforeseen events that will have more impact than human made events we already cannot completely forecast.

  • pm90an hour ago
    I was expecting a more nuanced article that talked about the “Suez Moment” in America but this is basically a (not even a good) critique of deindustrialization.
    • Phui3ferubusan hour ago
      I don't expect anything from the guy who declared self driving cars are easy, everyone is just doing it wrong, and he could do it better in a just a year; 5 years ago. The fame totally went to his head :P It is somewhat common issue for Nobel award winners, in this case the scope is limited "I am great at security and reverse engineering, that makes me an expert for anything IT related".
      • 21asdffdsa1223 minutes ago
        Nobel Nacre.. The nobelprize is hyper destructive to the scientists receiving it. Its hard to one up from there or return to your field- everyone is bombarding you with high expectations. You can only fail after you received olympic gold. Thus, as scientists inflict change on society, and society hates change, it is like a oyster, trying to protect itself from a grain of sand, wrapping it in Nacre, protecting itself from further change, by encapsulating the changing factor which remains neutered from its ability to do science.
      • ErroneousBosh6 minutes ago
        > self driving cars are easy

        Self-driving cars are easy though, 12-year-olds make them in high school STEM classes. You just give it a light sensor so it can follow a strip of white tape down the middle of the "road" and let it go from one place to the other.

        Oh, until it hits an obstruction.

        Okay well you add some sort of bumper switch to it so if it hits an obstruction it stops and backs up, to find a route round it.

        Ah right, well, let's see, that didn't work so well when the obstruction was much smaller and squashier than the car.

        Let's have some sort of distance sensors that - ah bollocks, they pick up everything including objects beside the road, and stop the car.

        Okay what about some sort of camera and machine vision system? Great, that lets it "see" the road ahead and steer or brake to avoid obstacles! But it turns out it now needs to understand a bit of physics, at least enough to stop it booting it wide open through a sharp bend and ending up shiny side down.

        Right so now it will drive at a sensible speed through bends, use a camera to look for obstructions, LIDAR to look for obstructions too, and it can actually follow road markings quite well, and even pick up speed from signs.

        Ah. It can't actually be used around other vehicles because it can't anticipate what they're going to do, and keeps getting into bad situations that it then needs to brake and swerve to avoid.

        Oh well, turns out self-driving cars aren't easy after all.

    • suddenlybananas39 minutes ago
      I don't quite see the Suez Crisis analogy quite working because China (the rising power) is not really involved against the US (the waning power).
      • vrganj25 minutes ago
        China is selling the world solar panels while the US is making gas unaffordable.
        • dv_dt19 minutes ago
          The US passed up multiple opportunities to fund its own more foundational solar industry
    • stingraycharles36 minutes ago
      Yeah it's a very short-sighted article. Taking a quote like this:

      > I can’t believe those who seriously try and say America’s value is in consuming.

      as a case against outsourcing manufacturing really doesn't understand the value that societies create when they are on the forefront of innovation.

      Maybe, just maybe, at a certain point physical labour is not the best way to use your working population, but instead, you know, services, innovation, etc?

      America has been doing pretty good in that regard over the past few decades.

      (For disclosure, I'm not from America, but still think this is a silly article)

      • direwolf2016 minutes ago
        China is at the forefront of innovation. America is not, except for financial innovation a.k.a. the best ways to get money out of people without doing actual work.
        • boxed4 minutes ago
          China is a the forefront of catching up. Don't mistake that for innovation. China isn't building the best chips, that's Taiwan with really Netherlands doing the hard part. China is catching up to European car makers except they've largely caught up to Tesla in the powertrain (I partly blame that on Americans boycotting Tesla for silly political reasons). In the AI space obviously China is just running after playing catch up. Biology, catch up. Chemistry, catch up. Physics, catch up.

          Where is China leading?

  • ben_w2 hours ago
    > Take the Mythos vulnerability finding thing. They didn’t just point Mythos at the codebase and say go, they built a harness where they asked it about each piece of code and if it was vulnerable. They triaged and spent more time looking at things that were flagged more, until eventually they passed it up to “uppper management” aka the people.

    > You could imagine building this exact same thing with humans. Educate them, get them to sit at a desk, read code, find vulns. Actually, I can only really imagine that in China, have you seen the current graduates from the American universities?

    Imagine, sure.

    But why didn't anyone? I don't think it is a question of quality, though China simply being more populous than the USA* means there are more people at any given competence in any given domain, but cost, both monetary and opportunity.

    AI's cheap. It would still be cheap compared to a human even if it cost 3000 USD/month for the token limit we get from the 20/month subscription.

    That's the danger.

    * by about 4x: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=china%20population%2Fus...

    • conartist6an hour ago
      It's not a question of quality. If you wanted quality, a motivated team of humans still can't be beat.

      That's why you may notice that in making AI, companies still use teams of highly motivated humans. Obviously they could have AIs holding the reigns of other AIs. Nothing technical is stopping them

  • havblue3 minutes ago
    A problem with politics now is it becomes a debate on Trump and sidesteps existential problems that we're facing and in favor of dunking on the other party. Stocks are going up when manufacturing isn't and the clumsy tarrif system we slapped on top of our economy isn't going to right the ship. I think the article is on the right track as we probably need more jobs related to building physical goods and not inflating the price of financial products. I'm just not sure if it goes far enough into a positive vision on what we should do to correct that.
  • roncesvalles7 minutes ago
    The Chinese are not worried about AI taking anyone's job. In fact they're excited by it.

    For some reason, there is this unbelievably thick air of paranoia in America where everyone is just waiting for the day when their job will go away. To a point where I think it should be classified as mass hysteria and looked into by public health authorities.

    We should all introspect why so many of us perceive America as this very delicate thing that is hanging on with borrowed time and will fall apart at any moment. Because I don't think it's actually like this.

    • wrren2 minutes ago
      To be fair, losing your job in America is a lot scarier than in most countries; especially when your whole industry is affected and your skill set has become obsolete. There’s not much of a social safety net to catch you.
  • xg155 minutes ago
    > I read an article a while back about how, basically because labor unions became too much of a pain to deal with, they were just cut out of the conversation.

    > This isn’t like when stuff is made in China. Those are basically American factories, just located in another country where you don’t have to negotiate with American labor.

    I guess you do need to be socialist to formulate that first sentence in the active instead of passive voice or wonder how it even was possible that America could build American factories in other countries without negotiating with any labor.

    The part that is also missing is how China gladly took all the outsourced jobs, said "thanks guys!" and used them to become the rivaling power to the US it is today.

  • kdilner41 minutes ago
    More sophomoric ramblings from this egotist.
    • jamesrom14 minutes ago
      That egotist got you to create an account to post that.
      • 2muchcoffeeman9 minutes ago
        I think loads of people regularly create new accounts. Also the HN account creation process is quite painless.
    • robot_jesus18 minutes ago
      It’s typical to complain about AI slop that hits the front page here, but it’s worth noting that a lot of the (presumably) human-written content is slop in its own right.

      This piece was some self-indulgent rambling that didn’t really have any connective threads.

  • roenxi32 minutes ago
    > It’s interesting how America believes in these apocalyptic AI narratives while China doesn’t.

    As the rest of the article alludes to, America is a services economy [0]. An industrial economy obviously doesn't have anything to fear from AI because their jobs don't primarily involve pressing buttons on a keyboard to justify their paycheck. That probably explains most of the difference; for China I'd imagine more AI -> More prosperity.

    > A human is about 20 petaflops. All of this installed compute is only about a million people.

    The number of effective humans might only be around a few million people. Gauss and Euler did a bit more for society than the average 20 petaflops of human flesh. One of the lessons of history is that being able to reliably connect a few really good humans has a lot more potential than a moderate number of more easily confused ones.

    There are a lot of smartest cow in the herd phenomenons out there. Even a few hundred thousand AIs would probably outnumber the senior politicians of the world and reducing the damage those politicians do would be a huge win. Gargantuan. Possibly species level impacts like we've never yet seen if a major power like China did it.

    > Oh sorry sorry, in a preemptive strike they obviously would have hit us if we didn’t attack them first. Yes yes, defensive preemptive attack. It’s just bullying. It’s stupid.

    And I'm probably packing too much into one comment, but you can tell everyone knows this is stupid because the politicians consistently have to use lies instead of trying to argue things on the merits. As soon as people have to try and connect the actual facts to someone who isn't corrupt being better off the argument collapses. The worst people are the ones in the grip of that team-sports emotion where they just support "their side" despite the fact that a policy of war hurts the side engaging in it. The warmongers aren't even on the same side, they're their own lobby of psychopaths.

    [0] A term which might be in for the "third world" euphemism treatment, but you never know.

  • oezi19 minutes ago
    The article is certainly firebranding, but the core tenet strikes a valid point: how has the US lost the plot within such a short time? How did it go from the flag bearer of freedom and progress to isolationist bully that wants to invade Greenland and become best friends with Russia?

    From the outside it is really hard to comprehend. Was it FoxNews that poisoned the American mind or the social media brainwashing? How can a society allow a billionaire to cut programs in Africa that saved hundreds of thousands of lives that cost pennies when compared to any military adventures.

    • JumpCrisscross16 minutes ago
      > how has the US lost the plot within such a short time? How did it go from the flag bearer of freedom and progress to isolationist bully that wants to invade Greenland and become best friends with Russia?

      American culture has lost its near-monopoly on optimism. We're now almost as cynical as the Europeans. (:D)

      That cynicism means civic disengagement, technological doomerism and general symptoms of depression. That collectively degrades the mostly bottom-up structures we've long relied on, requiring shifts to less-efficient (and hastily cobbled together) top-down command structures.

    • direwolf2018 minutes ago
      America has never been that. With everyone having access to apps like TikTok, the brainwashing stopped working as well and people can see that it isn't.
      • JumpCrisscross15 minutes ago
        > with everyone having access to apps like TikTok, the brainwashing stopped

        The ad-powered social media addiction stopped brainwashing?

        • direwolf2015 minutes ago
          TikTok was a Chinese app that had no qualms against showing Americans what their country does.
          • JumpCrisscross13 minutes ago
            > TikTok was a Chinese app that had no qualms against shooting Americans what their country does

            If one wanted deeply pessimistic takes on America and Americans, there has been a media market for that since at least the advent of cable news. Mistaking TikTok, one expression of a phenomenon, for the general trend is mistaking a tree for a forest.

      • forgetfreeman10 minutes ago
        America has absolutely been all of that and more within living memory. The problem is it's getting to the point where you need to be pushing 50 to remember a time when this was the case.
  • expedition328 minutes ago
    Providing healthcare isn't your employer's job it is something that comes from the government.

    It is the original sin of the American healthcare system.

    America was on the road to socialism from the 1930s to the 1950s but it all went to shit and here we are: back in the Gilded Age.

  • vrganj26 minutes ago
    Yes, America is a declining empire, but it has nothing to do with the reasons listed.

    Decades of capitalist cruelty has created a social environment so toxic it enabled a clique of conmen to rise to the top.

    Now, American hard and soft power are both being dismantled at a rapid pace. Former allies and trade partners are working around the US instead of with it now. It's leadership position has been abandoned, for no good reason at all.

    The internal rot is being projected onto the global stage and I don't think Americans quite understand the consequences yet.

  • derelictaan hour ago
    The US Empire has reached the limit of its capitalistic mode of production. Now is time for Americans to consider the next step of any industrialised capitalist society; scientific socialism. It did wonder for China, Vietnam, and many more, and it can do wonders for the American people too.
    • BirAdam19 minutes ago
      Except that America is not, and never has been, capitalist. Much like socialism or communism, capitalism has never been achieved. The closest I know any society to have come is the USA between the late 1860s and 1913. Yet, that still wasn’t a capitalist society. Half of the country was under military occupation, people were forced to segregate by law, and the USA was conquering people militarily and committing genocide in the Philippines. For capitalism to exist, people would be sacrificing in the present for investment in the future in a free market. There are no free markets, and the world operates under financialism where the future is sacrificed for the present via debt based currency and debt based capital markets. The most free market of the last 70 years has been information technology, and that is slowly changing. As it becomes regulated, the monopolies become entrenched, innovation slows, homogenization is enforced, and products undergo a diminution in quality as monopolies needn’t compete.

      To this day, capitalist leaning societies outcompete socialist leaning societies. Just don’t go saying that either has ever truly existed. Socialism and capitalism are utopian fantasies. People are messy and our systems are too.

  • ipkstef8 minutes ago
    [dead]
  • huflungdung8 minutes ago
    [dead]