102 pointsby eigenspace6 hours ago13 comments
  • red_admiral2 hours ago
    English used to have dual pronouns (what the article is a about), proper accusatives and genitives (she/her/hers, who/whom and the apostrophe-s genitive are survivors), formal/informal 2nd person pronouns (you / thou) and quite a few other things that come up when you learn French or Latin.

    Yes/No and Yea/Nay used to mean different things too: "Is this correct?" could be answered "Yea, it is correct" whereas "Is this not a mistake?" could be answered "Yes, it is correct" (which you can also parse by taking the 'not' literally).

    "Courts martial" and "secretaries general" are examples where the original noun-first word order remains.

    • stevula7 minutes ago
      I thought courts martial and secretaries general (and Knights Templar/Hospitaller, et al) were Anglo-Norman/French borrowings. Do you have any examples of native English phrases following that pattern?
    • triage8004an hour ago
      This sucks because yes its a mistake or no its not a mistake both fit
      • adammarples12 minutes ago
        they don't fit, because 'yes' was not supposed to be used in the context of 'yes it is a mistake', yea was. Having two words helped stop that ambiguity.
  • psychoslave4 hours ago
    My biggest side project is about grammatical gender in French, published as a research project on wikiversity[1].

    It did made me go through many topics, like dual, exclusive/inclusive group person.

    Still in a corner of my head, there is the idea to introduce some more pronouns to handle more subtilty about which first person we are expressing about[2]. The ego is not the present attention, nor they are that thing intertwined with the rest of the world without which nothing exists.

    [1] https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Recherche:Sur_l%E2%80%99exte...

    [2] The project does provide an homogenized extended set of pronouns with 6 more than the two regular ones found in any primary school book. And completing all cases for all nouns is the biggest chunk that need to be completed, though it’s already done by now for the most frequent paradigms.

  • eigenspace4 hours ago
    I found this article quite interesting, and couldn't help but feel there's something that's emotionally lost when we got rid of the dual-forms. The example from Wulf and Eadwacer where "uncer giedd" was translated to "the song of the two of us".

    Somehow that just doesn't land the same.

    • heresie-dabord4 hours ago
      > Somehow that just doesn't land the same.

      I fear that a modern colloquial rendering would disappoint yet further:

          our besties tune
    • iterateoftenan hour ago
      We still have in English: us-two and you-two and we-two.

      Same number of syllables.

      Maybe “Song of just us two”

      Like it’s common to hear “You two better stay out of trouble”

      Or “it was us two in the apartment alone…”

      Or “them two are pretty good together ”

    • dghfan hour ago
      The Wannadies had to go with "You & Me Song" https://youtu.be/t_e_45Szprk?si=4JVZHZzguqm3SFHN
    • zukzuk3 hours ago
      If you found this interesting, you might want to check out The History of the English Language podcast.

      I’m surprised how much I’m enjoying it. And I can’t believe I have 195 episodes left.

    • LAC-Tech3 hours ago
      If you are interested in Wulf and Eadwacer it is beautifully sung here:

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6-QagSE7sFY

  • frogulis5 hours ago
    Boy that unc/uncer looks tantalisingly close to modern German uns/unser. Wiktionary seems to have it descending from a different PIE root, n̥s vs n̥h -- I'm not at all familiar with PIE though.
    • shakna4 hours ago
      n̥ is just the "not" prefix. The "ero" is the real root. The prefix applies to the root first, and then the other pieces have their meanings, usually. (Its a reconstructed language. There are both exceptions and things we don't know.)

      "n̥-s-ero-" is sort of < "not" next-is-plural "mine" >.

      So, plural-(invert mine). Or roughly close to "we".

      "n̥-h-ero-" is sort of < "not" next-is-inclusive-plural "mine" >.

      So, plural-(group (invert mine)). Or roughly close to "us".

      But both are pretty close to the same meaning. High German maintained a lot of PIE, and is very close in a lot of ways. Though... Welsh is closer.

      • z5002 hours ago
        I've never heard of it being based on that root before. Do you have a source?
    • 4 hours ago
      undefined
    • eigenspace4 hours ago
      That was my first thought too! So many things in old-english are very very close to modern German, so it's sometimes surprising to see these false-friends.
      • stvltvs2 hours ago
        Contrary to what GP said, they're not false friends. They're a (lost) part of English's Germanic roots, shared with modern German.

        Edit: Check out the Proto-Germanic personal pronouns.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Proto-Germanic_person...

      • shermantanktop2 hours ago
        Oh, you mean “Falsche Freunde”?

        I have no idea how to say that idiomatically in German, but it struck me that those are both “true” friends.

    • pantalaimon2 hours ago
      Same with Ic - Ich
  • huijzer4 hours ago
    Also sad is the fact that “you” is now used for “thee” and “thou” and such. The older variants could distinguish between “you” plural and “you” singular
    • ksherlock4 hours ago
      W'all have got y'all for plural you.
      • madcaptenor2 hours ago
        Before I moved to the South I (a non-Southerner) did not feel comfortable saying "y'all". But "you guys" seemed sexist. I have since spent a decade in the South and I have not picked up much of the dialect, but I definitely say "y'all" now.

        "W'all" would be nice to have. I guess it's not a thing because it sounds too much like the things that separate rooms.

        • lamasery19 minutes ago
          "Guys" (without a "the" in front of it) is uncontroversially gender-neutral in most contexts in at least some parts of the US. I'm not sure whether folks worried about it are from places where it's definitely not, or places where it's not used much at all so they're not aware that it's a non-issue in (at least many) places where it is.

          I do prefer "y'all", though. I think it's the best one we've got, of the options ("yous" being another big one, and ew, gross)

          I also love the nuance of "y'all" and "all y'all".

        • saltcuredan hour ago
          Have you yet progressed to y'all being singular and all y'all being plural?
          • madcaptenoran hour ago
            No. As far as I can tell, singular "y'all", when it exists, is an implied plural. What you might hear as singular "y'all" is, say, when you go into a restaurant and say "do y'all have Coke?" to the server - that doesn't refer to just the server but to the restaurant as a whole. But I'm not a linguist and also I don't spend much time among people with heavier Southern dialect, so you shouldn't believe what I say.
            • pessimizer19 minutes ago
              No, you've got it right. A lot of people trying to be cute and make southern language seem more alien than it is are over-"correcting."

              When southern people say y'all to one person, they're really addressing you and your family (even though you might be the only one there.) If I ask "how y'all doing?" I want to know how you and yours are doing.

      • thechao3 hours ago
        You, y'all (small close group), y'all all (larger, further group), and "all y'all" — Southeast Texas (coastal) dialect form that showed up about 25 yrs ago. I suspect it might've been there all along, but only became acceptable at that point?

        Another 100+ years, and this'll be some solid grammar.

        • gibspaulding3 hours ago
          Don’t forget you’uns or yinz!

          I struggled with this when I was a school teacher. English lacks a good way to clarify you are addressing a group vs one person, which comes up a lot in a classroom. “Class, you…” is clunky, “You guys…” has obvious issues, and y’all or any other contraction is generally considered bad grammar. I generally went with y’all. Kids would laugh about it, but that seemed to help get their attention.

          • dfxm122 hours ago
            Surely, you knew all of your students' names and if you were addressing one person, you could've used their name. Addressing the class as merely "class" seems adequate as well. I'm having a hard time thinking of a situation where you are forced to use "you" ambiguously.
            • madcaptenor2 hours ago
              What if you're addressing part of the class, though? Like "y'all in the back, you need to get back to your work".
              • dfxm12an hour ago
                "You in the back" has the same level of specificity. Other options include (again) naming names or calling out a more specific location "You in the back row".
                • madcaptenoran hour ago
                  No, because "you in the back" could refer to just one person in the back, instead of several. So "y'all in the back" is more specific. (Of course names are an option in this context.)
                  • dfxm12an hour ago
                    (Of course names are an option in this context.)

                    Yes, this is a case where you aren't forced to use "you" ambiguously in that context.

                    No, because "you in the back" could refer to just one person in the back, instead of several.

                    If you meant to address one person, you'd have said that one person's name, instead of voluntarily introducing ambiguity to the situation. Context & body language also makes this obvious. If you meant one person, you'd be making eye contact with one person instead of a group of people, etc. Students also know if they're paying attention or not. "The back" is not a specific area.

        • AndrewKemendo2 hours ago
          That has to be more than 25 years

          I grew up in Houston saying all that in the 80s

          • pessimizer17 minutes ago
            It's probably closer to 250 years than 25.
    • EvsCB3 hours ago
      Forms of it persists in regional dialects, its not super common anymore but in Yorkshire I still here "dees" and "thas", "yous" also persist as another form of the plural you.
  • iterateoftenan hour ago
    Interesting that in English we had special pronoun for plurals of exactly 2, but in Russian for instance they have special case declensions for plurals less than 5.

    Is that significant? I have no idea. Is there a language with special case for exactly 2 with another case for a “few” and with yet another for “a lot”? Interesting to compare different cultures.

    • andrewshadura5 minutes ago
      It’s not just 5, it’s also 21 to 25, 31 to 35 etc. However, some Slavic languages (e.g. Slovak and Czech) don’t do that, and only have those special numerals for under 5.
  • nhgiang4 hours ago
    You two add

    You two commit

    You two push

  • dataflow2 hours ago
    Arabic has dual subject pronouns. I wonder if the concept developed independently or if there was any influence somehow?
  • 2 hours ago
    undefined
  • shrubby2 hours ago
    youtwo commit -m "Refactoring translations"
    • pimlottc2 hours ago
      Pair programming are wit?
  • markus_zhang5 hours ago
    For anyone curious as me:

    git means You two.

    • stoneman245 hours ago
      I wonder how it evolved into the modern British slang of “git”. To quote Wikipedia [0]

      “modern British English slang, a git (/ɡɪt/) is a term of insult used to describe someone—usually a man—who is considered stupid, incompetent, annoying, unpleasant, or silly.“.

      And “ Git is a popular open-source software for version control created by Linus Torvalds. Torvalds jokingly named it "git" after the slang term, later defining it as "the stupid content tracker".”

      [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(slang)

      • Octoth0rpe4 hours ago
        > Torvalds jokingly named it "git" after the slang term, later defining it as "the stupid content tracker".”

        I think the better Torvalds quote was when he said "I name all my projects after myself"

      • talideon4 hours ago
        There appears to be nothing linking Old English "git" with Modern English "git". Also, OEng "git" would've been pronounced more like "yit".
    • vintermann5 hours ago
      "Listen baby, they're playing uncer song..."

      "Git should get a room!"

    • rbonvall4 hours ago
      Of course. It's distributed.
  • mohsen13 hours ago
    If you're interested in history of English, I'd highly recommend the History of English podcast. https://historyofenglishpodcast.com
  • LAC-Tech3 hours ago
    Another fun pronoun distinction I have seen is having two forms of "we" - one including the person you are talking to, and one excluding them.

    (To clarify this was in Hokkien, not Anglo-Saxon).

    • postepowanieadm3 hours ago
      Like "us but not you"? That's mean.
      • shermantanktop2 hours ago
        Not when you’re delivering an insult to everyone present.
      • LAC-Tech2 hours ago
        Yeah it iw called the exclusive form lol.

        But if you think about it seems normal... "we went to the city" is not really mean.