234 pointsby zdw7 hours ago22 comments
  • parasti6 hours ago
    Focusing on "copying" seems like missing the forest for the trees. There's the copyright angle, but copyright laws are unnatural obstacles designed to give the original author some control over what happens after publishing. They're not fundamental, we made the laws.

    What is fundamental is this: every artist starts out by copying the works of others. It's how you learn.

    And in that framing, once you publish your derived work, there is only one question that arises - if you don't credit the original author but sign your own name, you're fundamentally misleading your audience. Your audience implicitly assumes you made the thing. Maybe you made 95% of it, but if you don't give due credit, it looks bad once your audience discovers that.

    On more than one occasion my perception of an artist has shifted once I discovered the "brilliant work" they created was actually a remake of somebody else's brilliant work. It's a feeling of being misled. It's never a feeling of "wow, this guy is a total hack and has no ability of their own".

    • keyle3 hours ago
      Exactly.

      They wouldn't copy each other for copyright infringement as much as it was a mark of respect. They carried each other's arts as an evolution and respect towards each other rather than copying; all bringing a small twist on what was before.

    • darkwater3 hours ago
      > On more than one occasion my perception of an artist has shifted once I discovered the "brilliant work" they created was actually a remake of somebody else's brilliant work. It's a feeling of being misled.

      The spirit of the famous - cited in the TFA as well - quote "great artists steal" is exactly that. If you don't know that the inspiration came from somewhere and believe that what an artist did was created in a vacuum, you will certainly think much higher of said artist.

    • Asooka8 minutes ago
      This sounds so insane to me. If I own land and grow a tree on it, the tree and its fruits are private property forever (mine until I die, then inherited by my children, then their children, or sold, transferred, etc ad nauseam). At no point does the tree become "public", that would be utter nonsense. It is property. Why should my ideas then be anything different? They come from my head. I own myself, including my head, thus I should own the fruits of my head like I own the fruits of my tree and they should remain property forever. The fact that copyright expires is one of the great tragedies of modern life, though at least I can take solace in knowing I own my ideas until I die.
      • mrob3 minutes ago
        Unlike the tree, nobody can take your idea away from you. You retain possession of your idea even if somebody copies it. It sounds insane to me to think you should get permanent control over other people's communication just because you had the idea before them.
  • Findecanor6 hours ago
    Demo scene graphics competitions these days tend to include work-in-progress images, as evidence of originality.

    The Revision demo party is soon. From the competition rules for "Oldskool Graphics" [0]:

    > Include exactly 10 (ten) working stages of your entry. All entries without plausible working stages will be disqualified.

    Yikes...

    The rules for "Modern Graphics" [1] and "Paintover" similarly also require work stages, but fewer.

    [0]: https://2026.revision-party.net/competitions/oldskool/#oldsk...

    [1]: https://2026.revision-party.net/competitions/graphics/#moder...

    • Sharlin2 hours ago
      Was required back in the early 2000s already, but that’s not really what the article is about. It’s talking about derived work created by recreating another artist’s existing work in a different medium. Being able to provide WIP material is only evidence that the technical labor is yours, not that the artistic concept is original.
  • pixelpoet6 hours ago
    As it happens I'm just on a train to Airbnb with large group of demoscene and fractal art friends, full week ahead of the Revision[0] demoparty! Hells yeah

    My top pick for pixel art would be anything by Made of demogroup Bomb, don't have a good link to hand sorry and need to change trains etc. Also check this amazing pixel art book: https://www.themastersofpixelart.com/

    [0] https://2026.revision-party.net/

  • tom60715 minutes ago
    Nice video from the Ahoy channel on his recreation of a pixel art burger that I think offers a really nice insight into the process for creating images like these

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4EFkspO5p4

  • skrebbel5 hours ago
    Let's not forget that most of these pictures were made by teenagers, doing the best they could (and hoping others didn't know about Boris Vallejo). The demoscene was very young back then. Copying is generally considered pretty lame in the demoscene these days.
    • momocowcowan hour ago
      It was considered "pretty lame" in the 90s, yet the best did it. It was just harder to figure it out.
    • _the_inflator5 hours ago
      Exactly. 12-16 was predominantly on the producer side.

      The hidden deciding factor nevertheless was time. And that affected the whole production cycle: coding, graphics, music, crunching, copying, spreading (postal services!).

      We had way more snow back then and we enjoyed working on something for hours till the wee hours.

      18 was a deciding factor because after that military service killed quite a few scener careers.

      Have a look at all the pr0n stuff pixel graphics that were cherished by the young studs as well as all the scroll texts as well as early disk magazines or pictures of programmers in computer magazines, with lots of profanity and simply stating age competition: 14 years old scolding 13 years old…

    • Sesse__4 hours ago
      > Copying is generally considered pretty lame in the demoscene these days.

      You will still see plenty of e.g. SID covers of existing pop music, without anyone really batting an eyelid.

      • skrebbel4 hours ago
        Fair. Pretty lame tho.
        • Sesse__3 hours ago
          That we can agree on.
  • momocowcow2 hours ago
    The famous spinning head from second reality is directly taken from the book "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way". Check it out on page 72
  • kilpikaarna3 hours ago
    Man, this really brings one back to discovering https://gfxzone.planet-d.net/ sometime around 1999 (when this was already fading into the past because the scene was dying, PC with 24bit graphics and painting software pushing out DPaint andAmiga palette stuff etc), reading all the old interviews where "No Copy!/?" was a core issue and looking at the galleries.

    "Danny leaves the scene" (because it's just a bunch of kids with scanners and he's got a job at Eidos now) never forget!

  • JetSetIlly6 hours ago
    > Farting around with Amigas in 2026 means actively choosing to make things harder for the sake of making things harder. Making that choice and still outsourcing the bulk of the craft and creative process is like claiming to be a passionate hobby cook while serving professionally catered dinners and pretending they're your own concoctions.

    People wanting to explore the use of generative AI for vintage computers is happening not just for graphics but for code too.

    I think in the case of code though, it's still interesting because I don't believe there's been any success yet. I hear of people having success with Claude in contemporary settings but it seems to fare less well when working for older computing platforms. There's a reason for that of course and it's worth exploring.

    However, it will cease to be interesting as soon as the first person manages to create something substantial. At the point, the scene should probably shun it for the reasons stated in the quote.

    • roygbiv24 hours ago
      There's definitely been success in using generative AI for vintage Computers. Just the other day I got it to produce a bootable floppy for my Amiga 1200. It loads the network driver, uses BOOTP to get an ip address, connects to a server and then downloads code via UDP that it will then execute. I doubt you'll get it doing amazing graphical scenes like you see in the demo scene though.
      • JetSetIlly3 hours ago
        I really meant in the coding realm, but it's interesting that it created a bootable floppy. That wouldn't be trivial.

        Questions: 1) Which AI platform did you use? 2) Did it create a binary image of the floppy disk (an ADF perhaps)? If not, what form did it take?

        • amiga386an hour ago
          > That wouldn't be trivial.

          INSTALL DF0:

          Just type that and your disk is bootable.

          What I find mind-boggling is the handwave over the rest. "Loads the network driver" - ok, which one? There's no standard network driver, only a specification for writing drivers (SANA-II). Was it a driver for SLIP/PPP over the serial port, or a PCMCIA Ethernet adaptor, or something else? Was it a copy of a driver someone's already written?

          Also, it would be madness to try doing this in a bootblock, or insinuating that the bootblock did it. Demo bootblocks take over the hardware and start using their loading routines, eschewing the main AmigaOS, and that's the implication of saying something was done in the bootblock (you have under 1KB of space so the first thing you need is your own loader).

          What's much more mundane and normal is a standard bootblock which returns control to AmigaDOS and lets it run the startup-sequence, whereupon you can use normal files, libraries, devices, including a full suite of other people's networking software, including BOOTP (AmiTCP comes with a client) and TFTP (see Olaf Barthel's tftpclient: https://github.com/obarthel/amiga-sana-ii-tftpclient). But it stopped being the "bootblock" that did it as soon as it started AmigaDOS.

        • roygbiv22 hours ago
          I used cursor with a mix of Gemini 3.1 and opus 4.6.

          It referenced the Amiga ROM Kernel Reference Manual, appendix C to create a boot block in assembly. It's a raw sector-mapped image, the build process creates a blank adf, which then writes everything at it's fixed offsets and we go back with another tool to patch the bootblock with the right checksum so the kernel accepts it.

          I copied that adf to the A1200 so I can then write it to a real floppy.

  • bob10294 hours ago
    I like the case of video editing. This is a situation where oftentimes zero percent of the source material is your own creation. Most would still consider this an artform. Shaping the overall meaning of a pile of raw assets is usually way more valuable than any one asset in isolation.

    Successfully integrating many disparate parts has always been the big ticket item. Dealing with the rough edges and making different ideas play together nicely is where all the value lives in most businesses.

  • richrichardsson4 hours ago
    Not sure I agree with the final takeaway point. At least from a personal standpoint anyway. I used AI images in a couple of Amiga intros, but actively admitted to using them. At the time there wasn't quite the backlash against their use, so now would completely steer clear, but not having access to a graphic artist is reflected in the output I've managed in the recent times (zero).
  • onion2k5 hours ago
    I grew up in the era of the Amiga and got into computing in some part due to demoes like Technological Death and Unreal. Not sure if 10 years is too new to be considered 'retro', but "Intrinsic Gravity" by Still is my favourite demo ever. It's lots of different scenes that transition beautifully from one to another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZxPhDC-r3w
  • imrozim2 hours ago
    the attribution point is the real crux. the demo scene actually had a strong culture of crediting influences and techniques greets, shoutouts, releasing source code. the copying was open and celebrated. the problem with modern inspired by work isn't the copying itself,it's doing it silently and letting audiences assume full originality
    • myself248an hour ago
      My recollection is that the .MOD tracker music scene was the same. Credit your samples and nobody bats an eye! Be seen as "stealing" a sample, and you're persona non grata. It's really that simple.
  • krige6 hours ago
    It's hard to get in the era of ubiquitous 32 bit color depth, but back in the day, part of the show was making merely your hardware output picture very close to the reference in as many colors as possible and good resolution too. This was where Amiga's special video modes could really shine.

    Thus, some demos, like the one where Lazur's image came from [0] were just slideshows of very colorful images that were more than likely traced from something.

    [0] https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=3715 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmhffwhGiK0

  • andai4 hours ago
    On my device, low res versions of the images are displayed, I had to click them to open the full res versions — which I very highly recommend!

    e.g. I zoomed in to view the matchbox texture described in the article, and found it a blur. (Clicking loads the uncompressed PNG.)

    Personally, I think for this page, loading full res images inline is warranted. The resulting 3MB page size would be more than justified :)

    • layer84 hours ago
      This is stated under the first image: All images on this page are clickable and link to non-lossy versions when available. The aim is to not have large amounts of data be downloaded by default.
  • mda6 hours ago
    In the Lazur's 256 colour rendition, it is curious that they got the details in the front very well but messed up the third guys face completely.
    • weinzierl5 hours ago
      To me all the faces look messed but I believe it is mostly because the image seems to be distorted, it is stretched in the vertical direction. I suspect it was created on hardware with non-square pixels and is just displayed wrongly.
      • andai4 hours ago
        I was curious and took a look in an image editor. It indeed fits much better with y axis scaled down 15-20%
    • exo7624 hours ago
      If look good if you look at the image in original resolution. Click on it.
  • aditmag5 hours ago
    It would be so awesome to make a cartoon today using original techniques with hand-drawn scenes, multiplane cameras, and most importantly jazz music :)
  • jamiek886 hours ago
    These people literally gods to me growing up. My parents were poorer than others so we never had any computer better than an acorn electron but the demos my friends with amigas and Atari ST’s showed my blew my mind.
  • shevy-java5 hours ago
    > Pixel artist Lazur's 256 colour rendition (left) of a photo by Krzysztof Kaczorowski (right). A masterful copy showcasing the sharpness, details and vibrancy achievable with pixel techniques.

    Well - the edited image looks clearer in the rendition, but also more fake. So unless that was the goal, I prefer the more blurred image, simply because it is more authentic than that digital edit. Many AI images have a similar problem; they look very out of place. I noticed this in some games where AI generated images are used. The images look great but they simply don't fit into the game at hand or they have a style that looks alien. Case in point was mods for the game Baldur's Gate 2 EE, where these images are great but they look very outside-ish. And that's a problem that seems to be hard to get rid of from such generated images, at the least for most of those I saw so far.

  • charcircuit7 hours ago
    >It's a place of refuge from the constant churn of increased efficiency

    Increased efficiency also seems to be part of its appeal. The limitation is you can't increase efficiency by just upgrading computer specs, but instead have to find innovating ways to use the existing resources as efficient as possible to make something great. These kinds of optimization or compression problems seems like something AI would be very helpful for, so I think it is premature to try and ban its usage.

    • jackdaniel6 hours ago
      This is quite tone deaf - demoscene stands for creativity and resource constraint, and using ai cancels both in favor of resource intensive cognitive offload
      • Reebz5 hours ago
        Not knowing the scene and only what I took from the article - it’s precisely this. There is a reverence towards human labour and effort that affords relaxing what are generally accepted social contracts in other areas (e.g. copying). It’s a very interesting social construct where the self-policing is in a very specific are whilst other areas are forgiven.
    • cess113 hours ago
      The demo scene is obsessed with hardware and tooling. Exhaustively knowing how things work and showing practical results as evidence is the main activity at demo parties.

      You can crib techniques from other people but unless you also show that you understand them deeply, e.g. by creative adaptions, you'll still be considered a lamer even though your results match those of someone else.

      This is one of the reasons why the demo scene still has a lot of physical events, it's part of the socialisation process to be in the same room as other people, putting in your final touches while they observe and produce distractions that in practice validate your abilities and respectable refusal to take shortcuts.

  • cubefox3 hours ago
    That's was a great read and I agree with the author. Though to be honest, I don't particularly like the type of Amiga pixel art in the article. That is, pixel art with relatively high resolution and relatively high color depth. Everything looks too smooth and hyperrealistic in my opinion.

    I think things can look much better for pixel art that is either very low resolution (e.g. the small characters and objects in a SNES game, which would usually be just a few pixels wide, so every pixel has to be placed deliberately) or has a very low color depth (a pallette between two to ~16 colors, like the backgrounds in a PC-88 game), or both (like the sprites in a Game Boy game).

    An example where higher color depth can ruin the visuals is "Snatcher" by Kojima. The backgrounds for the original PC-88 and MSX versions were relatively detailed (200x100 pixels perhaps), while the color depth was very low (8 colors?), which greatly accentuated the pixel-art look. However, the later re-releases added more and more colors and smooth gradients, which only made it look worse, like a mediocre comic book.

  • damotiansheng4 hours ago
    [dead]
  • jordanjoni5 hours ago
    [dead]