174 pointsby doener5 hours ago9 comments
  • rayiner3 hours ago
    The ungameable statistic is the native born labor force participation rate, which also ticked down: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNU01373413.

    Unfortunately, that figure never recovered from the pandemic. It also never recovered from a major drop after the 2008 recession.

    • gruez39 minutes ago
      >The ungameable statistic is the native born labor force participation rate, which also ticked down: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNU01373413.

      It's pretty obvious the declining native born rate is just mirroring the overall decline in labor participation, probably from demographic changes. Old people retire and stop working, after all.

      https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART

      If you look at prime age labor force participation rate, it tells a completely different story:

      https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300060

      It's ironic that you talk of "ungameable statistics", implying that others are misleading people with the statistics, when you're seemingly trying to do the same thing by selectively presenting that statistic to imply that immigrants are stealing native-born's jobs.

    • stego-tech2 hours ago
      Hot take, but I don’t think it should recover. If anything, I think a combination of low unemployment, higher wages, and a labor force participation rate of ~45-55% would be a sweet spot to aim for:

      * It would indicate more single income households able to make ends meet and live higher quality lives

      * It would suggest more stay-at-home parents to rear children, which is only possible in a safe and stable economic environment

      * It’d also suggest a higher amount of community engagement, rather than mere working and resting.

      * A rise in successful single-income households would also suggest improvements in cost of living affordability

      In our current world, where we expect both parents to work full-time jobs to survive (because the cost of everything assumes a married couple employed full-time, especially in cities), this number is bad; in a healthier society, it might be a good thing.

      I’d argue in favor of deflating costs or raising wages instead of increasing labor force participation, but that’s my personal soapbox.

      • 21 minutes ago
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      • chrisweeklyan hour ago
        I love this vision. What do you think might be required to make it real?
        • snypher29 minutes ago
          The return of the proceeds of labor to the people who performed the labor.

          Edit: my CEO owns ~125 houses.

          • gruez10 minutes ago
            >The return of the proceeds of labor to the people who performed the labor.

            It's funny you bring that up, given the statistics on this shows that it's been trending down, but nowhere close to the amount you'd expect from the popular discourse.

            https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LABSHPUSA156NRUG

    • kilroy1232 hours ago
      A lot of things unraveled around 2012.

      https://wtfhappened2012.com

      • game_the0ryan hour ago
        The iphone + fb/instagram = kids spending more time on the screen than irl

        Since, youth suicide, depression, anxiety, etc have hit record levels. Coincides with the smart phone adoption and negative emotion graphs.

      • s_devan hour ago
        I love how Covid lockdowns clearly show up in so many graphs going across the past few decades. It's going to be a real gem for researchers in general going forward.
    • apian hour ago
      Isn’t that a proxy for aging and lower birth rates?
    • onlyrealcuzzo3 hours ago
      As the population continues to age, and more people are 62+, this is expected...
      • djohnston3 hours ago
        I don’t think that’s telling the whole story.

        Immigration has always been used as leverage against the native workers, and now it’s more efficiently corrupt than ever.

        • 464931682 hours ago
          Used by whom?
          • influx39 minutes ago
            The capital class?
      • idiotsecant3 hours ago
        Look at that trajectory one more time and tell me how 'expected' it is.

        The first stages of a worldwide recession is what it looks like to me.

    • rafaelmn3 hours ago
      Is this working age population or all ages ?
      • Knufferlbert2 hours ago
        That seems to be everyone above 16 years of age. It excludes inmates, that is penal and mental institutions (which in the land of the free is surprisingly sizeable chunk). Also excludes active military personnel. Notably it includes people who are disabled but are unable to work.
      • throwawaysleep2 hours ago
        It is a historical range of working age, so it includes people who are 16 and over and everyone until the die of old age.
    • hypeatei2 hours ago
      > The ungameable statistic

      How are the normal unemployment rates (U-3, U-6, etc.) "gamed" exactly? Or, put another way: what would you do differently?

      • kitten_mittens_2 hours ago
        U-3 Unemployment doesn't include people not actively looking for work, people making less than they'd like, or working less than they'd like.

        https://www.lisep.org has alternate measures that try accounting for take home wages as well as seasonal variability (construction is noted as being volatile but relatively well paying).

        • gruez26 minutes ago
          >U-3 Unemployment doesn't include people not actively looking for work, people making less than they'd like, or working less than they'd like.

          That seems fine? It's the unemployment rate, after all, not "likes how much money they're making" rate.

          Moreover if you compare these alternate measures, they more or less match the same trend as U-3. For instance:

          https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/alternative-...

          So if the alternate measures mostly follow the same trend as U-3, and the numbers are only higher because they use a looser criteria, what's the point of bringing them up, other than as a cheap rhetorical device?

          Suppose we had some way of objectively determining happiness on a 1-10 scale. The government puts out a metric called the "sad rate", which is people who are 2 or less on the scale. What's the point in coming along and declaring "the real sad rate is not actually 5%. If we change the cutoff to 3, it's actually 10%!"? Heck, why stop at 3? Why not declare everyone under 5 sad? Then the sad rate would be even bigger, great for doomposting!

        • hypeateian hour ago
          The graph ("vs. Headline Rate")[0] follows the same trend lines as the BLS numbers just with a higher percentage. I don't see how the "poverty wage" methodology (which is arbitrary) is helpful here, it doesn't take into account caregivers or disabled people who may be keeping their wage low on purpose due to benefits cliffs.

          Effectively they just take the official numbers and add a constant.

          0: https://www.lisep.org/tru

    • nobodyandproud2 hours ago
      I’m naturalized—very, very long term—but I couldn’t find any stats that track by US citizens.

      I suppose that makes me a second-class citizen?

      • bojan2 hours ago
        You have one right fewer than natively born Americans - you can't become the President. Make of that what you will.
        • nobodyandproudan hour ago
          I don’t mind it. Learned about it in elementary. But not stat tracking citizenship employment seems like a blind spot?
        • tialaramex2 hours ago
          This is another one of the weird American-isms that many Americans don't realise isn't normal everywhere else.

          Boris Johnson was born in New York. "He wasn't born in this country" probably wasn't even on anybody's top-100 problems with Boris as Prime Minister.

          • RaptorJ2 hours ago
            The US president is both Head of State and Head of Government. It turns out there's a bunch of countries that require the head of state to be a natural born citizen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidential_qualifica...
          • hx82 hours ago
            The requirements to be US President isn't to be born in the US, but to be a "natural born citizen."

            While the rules of being a natural born citizen is more complicated if born outside of the US, you can generally become one if one of your parents is a US citizen.

          • wavemode2 hours ago
            I wouldn't call it an Americanism, per se. There are plenty of countries where you can't become a citizen at all without having a relative who is one. There are also plenty of countries where, even being born there is not sufficient for citizenship (in fact, only 35 countries in the world grant citizenship unconditionally via being born within the borders).
          • 2 hours ago
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        • admissionsguy39 minutes ago
          Didn't stop Barrack Obama..
      • an hour ago
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      • bicx2 hours ago
        It means that if we cut off or discourage immigration, we can’t count on non-native citizens to continue boosting our numbers. So, we have to look at the native-born stats to get an idea of our future.
        • nobodyandproud14 minutes ago
          Yes, but why not have both? Why only native?

          I can’t help but think talks of denaturalization are more than just fringe.

          Or perhaps the numbers are starkly different, and for the best?

        • 464931682 hours ago
          The future is a labor shortage. Good for wages, bad for inflation.
      • 464931682 hours ago
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  • IgorPartola2 hours ago
    So two factors that affected this report:

    1. Kaiser Permanente healthcare strike sidelined 28,000 workers. The strike ended on February 23rd.

    2. The severe weather resulting in two major snow storms made it so that lots of businesses were simply closed for a few days. This meant they couldn’t be properly surveyed.

    It still is not good, but the magnitude of how not good is worsened by specific one-time circumstances. Make of that what you will.

    I can’t see the FT article but this one. Talks a bit about these circumstances: https://www.cnbc.com/2026/03/06/february-2026-jobs-report.ht...

    • alephnerd2 hours ago
      The FT article brings it up as well - most HNers never read the articles.
      • g947o12 minutes ago
        Most HNers don't have access to the article.

        Not sure why this source was used. There are plenty of other sources that are more accessible/available (that are already shared and discussed here).

      • righthandan hour ago
        Does that matter if the headline is conclusive of the article result? Financial Times is a costly subscription. Furthermore those details, while interesting, do not change the outcome of the article.
  • WalterGR4 hours ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47275035

    US economy unexpectedly sheds 92k jobs in February (bbc.com)

    524 points | 23 hours ago | 733 comments

  • dgellow3 hours ago
    I understand the US economy is experiencing some… troubled times. However, 4.4% unemployment rate, while that’s an increase, sounds really low compared to other countries. Am I missing something?
    • bmitch30202 hours ago
      4.4% is the headline number, but there are other measures of unemployment [1] that show we are closer to 8% when you include people that are discouraged from even looking and those working part-time but would prefer a full time job.

      There's also a stagnation of salaries relative to inflation and a slow hiring market that has people locked into a job when they'd like to find something better. The K-shaped recoveries have people slipping out of the middle class. Combine with housing increasing faster than inflation, future generations having a lower quality of life than their parents.

      The wealthy are doing what they can to try to direct the narrative elsewhere, by controlling media sources, blaming immigrants, blaming China, and blaming the government. But we really have far too much wealth concentration to be sustainable, not unlike the ending of a game of monopoly. If a more stable solution isn't found soon, I fear things will get much worse than they already are.

      [1]: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

    • mrtksn2 hours ago
      US economy is robust, the problem is that people don’t have the same safety nets when out of work.

      No job means no healthcare or reduced coverage for many people for example, so it is a bigger deal to have unemployment.

      Which means a Finnish or Spanish level unemployment would be much more catastrophic, however anyone expecting the demise of USA will have to keep waiting as the country is very rich and developed and as a result they will re-group and be fine - eventually.

      • margalabargalaan hour ago
        The worst case for the US is a USSR style splintering. Many of the individual constituent states may come out the other end fine or better with time, but that doesn't make "the US" fine.
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    • HarryHirsch2 hours ago
      The U-3 rate does not include those that drove for Uber one hour in the month. The gold standard metric is labor participation rate of white men over 20, and that's not looking good: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300028
      • gruez17 minutes ago
        >The gold standard metric is labor participation rate of white men over 20

        "gold standard"... according to whom? Economists? Internet commentators? White nationalists?

        • HarryHirsch6 minutes ago
          Economists, of course - the confounder of discrimination is absent here. Recall: if something appears weird in the US, it's usually due to slavery.
    • alephnerd2 hours ago
      From TFA: "The fall was led by a drop in healthcare employment following widespread strikes by medical workers in New York, California and Hawaii"
    • sbochins2 hours ago
      You’re absolutely right. The labor market is still quite strong. All the doom and gloom from places like HN is coming from the many layoff announcements and fear of AI.
      • dgellow2 hours ago
        I didn’t say the market is strong
      • Madmallard2 hours ago
        Or the reality, which is that the numbers are royally fudged and the statistic is a farce.
        • alephnerd2 hours ago
          It's not that numbers are a farce but different industry segments are doing better or worse than other.

          HN being a tech forum that now increasingly skews East and Midwest (heck, it's not even 7am yet in the West, but look at the degree of engagement on here) means most HNers are impacted by a slowdown in tech hiring, which exacerbates the sense of pessimism.

          And tbf, if you aren't working in a tech hub like the Bay or NYC, you are going to be screwed if you are laid off - employers increasingly restrict remote work to those employees who have proven internal track records, and inshoring hubs like in RTP, Denver, Atlanta, etc are on the chopping block.

  • alkyon4 hours ago
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  • s530041 minutes ago
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  • 9dev3 hours ago
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    • nabbedan hour ago
      Honestly, I thought you were quoting an SNL skit, but now I see this quote in a transcript from his 2026 state of the union speech.

      That being said, over my lifetime I've heard many TV talking heads, people I assume are much more well informed than me, claim that presidents don't really have that much to do with the state of the economy, despite the levers they pull, and it's all a matter of timing whether they reap the benefits of a good economy or get pummelled for a bad economy. That doesn't stop them from taking credit when things are good (or pretending that things are great with things are actually pretty meh).

      • righthandan hour ago
        Arguably never has their been a Potus willing to destroy the economy. Potus can pull levers to try and boost the economy which is more or less at the whim of everyone else participating. That is the truth that was being referred to before. Now we have a Potus bent on destroying it so the levers he pulls are actually effecting the economy in ways. But he still doesn’t control it.
      • adammarplesan hour ago
        Presidents don't. That's because presidents don't unilaterally dictate trade policy, or start wars, or micromanage immigration policy. Congress is supposed to do the work of running the country. However, this president has side stepped all the usual ways that the US runs under the guise of "emergency" powers.
    • Imustaskforhelp3 hours ago
      • 9dev14 minutes ago
        Assuming a single of his utterances carries deeper meaning would give him too much praise.
      • SkipperCatan hour ago
        I'd call it dummerspeak...