Warrant Canary(en.wikipedia.org)
7 pointsby _josh_meyer_7 hours ago1 comment
  • slau6 hours ago
    Unfortunately it is quite clear today that canaries never really worked, or more charitably, don’t work anymore.

    While you might have been able to “gotcha” the court, it would also have been a sure fire way to end up in contempt.

    • Bender6 hours ago
      That's pretty much how a few executives and corporate lawyers explained it to me when I suggested creating one. It's not just the legal aspect but there are unwritten agreements between corporations and the judicial system that would be tainted when playing such games. Corporations do everything they can to stay in the good graces of the legal system otherwise that relationship can become very contentious and litigious as companies stretch the gray areas of law all the time and the government generally leave them alone i.e. look the other way.

      It usually ends up working the other way around. Companies will bend over backwards to assist the government even when the law does not require it or when a warrant would normally be required. When a company is saying otherwise "we will stick it to the man" that is just a show to obtain confidence of customers and prospects. Lavabit [1][2] was a perfect example of what happens when a company tries to fight this paradigm.

      [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit

      [2] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/lavabit-ladar-...

      • fsflover6 hours ago
        But can it still work for non-profits? For example, Qubes OS has a canary.
        • Bender5 hours ago
          I am not a lawyer but I know it is a legal gray zone. If the government wants information they can drain the financial resources of a non profit or individual very fast. Governments are operating on nearly limitless monetary resources. It also does not stop seizures of equipment or documents. That means the canary could be displayed on a site and the owners / operators might not be able to take it down especially if they are being held in contempt. To be taken seriously a canary would have to be updated frequently or it is nearly meaningless.

          Canaries also require trust and transparency. Automation is quite common amongst developers. A canary being updated could be automation. Signing can be automated. They might assume that if something is wrong they will be able to stop the automation. This may not be the case. It may be worth noting a judge in the USA can hold someone in contempt for a civil case indefinitely and up to 6 months for a criminal case. That is plenty of time for end-users of a site to be monitored, investigated and prosecuted.

          If I were trying to manage such a thing then I would have to create a highly distributed site with signals a government could not easily tamper with and people around the world associated with the non profile could update such as Tor .onion sites, i2p links and the like. This would require friends of the site stay in continuous contact. This could potentially cause more problems for the people not operating from the shadows. The site owner would have to be able to deny any knowledge of the people updating or removing the Tor/I2P links. This also assumes interested parties are even monitoring these links. This would require incredible discipline and opsec, something most people just do not have time for. Yes I am arguing against my own idea.

          • Jerrrrrrrry4 hours ago
            This is standard at the highest levels of darknet/shadow networks.

            Continuity, watchdogs, canaries, spook alarms, Deadman PGP switches, even offensive counter-LEO apparatuses.

            • Bender2 hours ago
              Agreed though I have never heard of a non-darkweb business going through these procedures and certainly would not be caught documenting them as the legal system may interpret that as evading a lawful order with some slimy wording that suggests premeditation. A corporate lawyer would have to chime in as I am entirely guessing at this point. So many laws have so much wiggle room.
        • Jerrrrrrrry4 hours ago
          This is why True/Vera Crypt and other select essential software developers did not even allow donations at some point.

          You can not be compelled to work for free, but you can if you have ever received meaningful compensation.