The other "helpful" suggestion is that, if you can't use the app, you can apply for a regular full-blown tourist visa (Subclass 600), which costs $145 and takes weeks if not months to process.

Let me guess you have to be an Australian citizen (inmate?) to have the right to sue and then you won't have standing?

But there's really good reason for this. On the app it can use NFC to read your passport data exactly. Until WebNFC supports reading passports, it is a much more efficient way.

It's not like they are getting some long term benefit of having the app on your phone. It's just because WebNFC can't read passports.

Is it really convoluted? It's 2 clicks? If the mobile app solution is the better and simpler choice for most people, wouldn't it make sense for them to recommend it?

> My problem is more with governments ... pushing people to ... Google/Apple.

It's worse than that. Many municipalities and schools etc only post public notices to Facebook/Twitter or some similarly hostile environment.

> The article is definitely a bit over the top, it is just my personal blog and me trying to write a bit more funny to counter the bland LLMs.

But. Your headline contradicts your story. The only excuse for that (and it is weak) is when writers don't get to write their own headlines (this is common) and the editors who do write the headlines are corrupted for clicks or drama (but I repeat myself).

This way lies madness, the road to hell, etc.

This is not the way of the honest writer.

100%?

I once published an app to help people track their budget. It didn't even request any permissions, not even internet. How is it bad?

I wrote an app for a university to let researchers track bat sightings in caves and upload it to a database for population tracking. How is it bad?

But the article seems to take a very roundabout way for it, and still doesn't link the direct version. I just did the same thing, googling 'UK ETA', clicked the top result, then clicked the most salient link on the result page ('Apply'), then clicked the most salient button on the next page which is a big green 'apply now button', though it is after the links to the app (but those links are not big and green). Admittedly I do have a decent amount of experience with the UK government's website which tends to have this pattern of a few pages of explanations about the thing before you get to the form you need to fill in, but it surprises me that it was that hard to find.

(Edit: ah, no, I see: the next steps are quite dark-pattern pushing you towards the app. Yeah, that's quite shitty)

No, I think he searched for the ETA App and was disappointed at the lack of emphasis on an alternative to the app once you are in it. If you just search the web for ETA and gov.uk it takes you straight to the online portal (which also asks for feedback as it's a service in Beta). The gov.uk website is neutral between you using the app or the online portal.

The only point I can see here is that once you are in the app it keeps encouraging you to use it and doesn't keep suggesting you might like to use the online portal instead. But I don't understand the initial premise about not using app stores. If the author didn't want to use an app store, why did he download an app instead of going to gov.uk?

>>> How Many Hoops Are Too Many Hoops?

>> It's really not that many hoops

> That's... What the article is about

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

That has a link to actually applying online.

They are definitely using a dark pattern to push people towards the app, but it is possible to apply online.

Its not so much the process that is the complaint here, as that the UK government is intentionally using Big Tech style anti-patterns to push engagement in a particular manner. It's a dangerous precedent (and not even close to the first time they've done similar).

> ESTA process for travelling to the US&A and even that one isn't particularly difficult

Dodging the google ads & promoted search results that take you to clones of the application form that charge 2-3x is the hardest part.

All of my EU friends living in the UK have now applied for citizenship.

The risk profile for "I have indefinite leave to remain" has moved from "this won't be an issue at all" to "we have no trust in the government on this" in a few short years.

Profoundly depressing

Unless something major happens I'm almost certain they'll either win the next election or be part of a coalition.

About the only thing that can stop them is the Tories holding onto relevance enough to split their vote again.

I think you are worrying too much and a lot of this is media hype. Their main focus is small boats and people entering the country illegally. If they do restrict them more you are almost certainly better off getting your partner a visa before (but I think you would need to marry to get a spouse visa though).

> Reform would get in and throw out all the "undesirables" (basically anyone without a British Passport at first, sure they won't stop there)

I think that is an exaggerated view from a distance. I see no evidence they can do that, or want to. At the time of the Brexit campaign Farage said he wanted skilled immigrants (he gave the example of Indian doctors immigrating in the 1970s as the wort of thing he wanted). Nor can the country afford to lose skilled people. Its worth remembering that Reform would not agree to what Elon Musk wanted in return for funding so I think its safe to assume Reform would not be as extreme as the current US government.

I am of foreign birth, as is my younger daughter (she was born abroad) and I am not particularly worried. I would worry if Rupert Lowe's Restore party started making gains, or Ben Habib's Advance party.

> I'm really not sure how likely them attaining power

They are doing well in the polls now but my feeling is they are peaking. Letting on too many Conservative defectors makes them look at lot less of an anti-establishment party (a huge part of their appeal) and they are becoming too extreme (I think in reaction to the splash, mostly on social media) made by Advance and Restore (one of those is what Elon Musk endorses, so that gives you an idea where they are).

For what it’s worth I’ve had zero problems thus far (under eu settled scheme)

As a brit also watching from afar...

It does seem scarily likely, but he still has a few years to really screw things up before we get there. Fingers crossed.

Without a large-scale cock-up, I don't see Starmer as inspiring enough to stop him unfortunately. Lets hope someone else steps up to the plate with a bit more charisma.

If (more likely when but gotta stay optimistic) the fascists do take power there will be people that fight. There already are so many people standing up. My recommendation for a non-brit would unfortunately be to avoid moving to anywhere that could be classified as Little England. I'm fortunate enough to live in the bubble that is the "UKs happiest city", and while you cant pretend racism / xenophobia are extinct here, people do stick up for eachother and mind their own businesses. The UK is great, even so for immigrants, its just finding those pockets of tolerance and kindness in an ever growing sea of shite. British people need to focus on rebuilding our strong local communities that were smashed by Thatcher, and then this too shall pass.

> EU governments

The UK left the EU a while ago. UK citizens traveling to the EU will require an ETIAS authorization which also comes with an app at the end of the year, but that's not live yet. The website that's been prepared so far does mention the ability to file online, though.

It doesn’t really seem like humorous hyperbole, though. It’s currently just factually incorrect. And it’s in your power to fix it, especially if you agree now in retrospect!

While this is a real problem and I do have relative who had this issue like this there are ways to get new UK passport without paying £600 or changing legal name in other country.

It's just take digging in government rules and arguing. As long as it's not the first UK passport it's doable.

Sure, but it was a change that was slipped through under the radar without any proper justification for it (the situation wasn't even clarified for dual nationals until quite close to the deadline).

> It's not unreasonable to ask for the British passport

Why? What legitimate purpose does this serve?

I've read the issue is that some countries require you to renounce your previous nationality to get citizenship, and people have taken advantage of not needing a British passport by lying about renouncing their British citizenship.

I've seen claims this technique was actually recommended by the British consulate, no idea if that's true.

ok, did not know that, every day is a school day!

This new rule might be problematic for those Northern Irish people who identify solely as Irish (as is their right under the Good Friday Agreement) and who only hold an Irish passport: unless things have changed since the DeSouza case [0], the UK Government and UK law treat everyone born in Northern Ireland (as long as at least one of their parents meets citizenship or residency requirements) as a British citizen, regardless of their opinions on the matter. The UK Government holds that this is compatible with the GFA because you can renounce your British citizenship; but you have to pay hundreds of pounds to do so.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_DeSouza

Which is funny because for years they'd gleefully charge you 30 quid to print one at the airport if you dared to turn up with only a PDF.

Just one more reason to boycott Ryanair

This is a common problem. I have it everywhere I go when I take my kids on holiday. Particularly ticket machines where you have to buy multiple tickets and can't add more than one to a transaction (Maltese buses are a good one).

I don't get the problem with my credit card. Might just be switching cards until you find one that isn't crap.

I'm guessing this is your card bouncing a repeat purchase from the same vendor with the same value

A year or two ago I had a similar issue booking to see a Broadway show in NYC... baffling because surely a large percentage of their custom is international tourists. It must have been some kind of temporary glitch, but we had to do something else in the end.

We assumed that they charge some kind of penalty fee if you do not show up via your phone number, and this (most likely 3rd party) system only works with UK numbers.

The scan phase is proof of liveness. Photo is a still image.

for visa, at least when I did it, multiple pictures and full sets of all fingerprints.

> There should always be web fallbacks for those opposed to smartphones or unable to use them.

And there is a web fallback. And it's right there on the page. Honestly, I think they did a pretty good job.

You can literally just use the online form. Have you actually tried using your search engine to query applying, and seeing just how easy it is to optionally apply online?

Over half of the world’s population is using an Android or iOS device. Most people visiting a country in the UK or have the means to afford a trip, most likely have a functioning mobile phone.

I find it somewhat amusing you think I’m “insane” for suggesting most of the modern world has a relatively accessible Android or iOS device to apply for a visa.

It's insane that multi trillion government would rely on a foreign private entity for something so simple yet critical. The only sane answer here is corruption.

Convenience. Do you travel with a laptop and open it to scan your boarding pass pdf also?

> if you enter a country whose citizenship you have you must always enter with the travel document or proof of citizenship of that country. no exceptions.

Completely untrue. I have done so perfectly legally.

>document is most likely a violation of the law.

A violation of what law?

> no exceptions. that is a global convention

Bullshit. Each country makes their own rules on this (being a sovereign country) and there is absolutely not a “global convention”

My native-Swedish friends all complain about the bureaucracy here, but it is so much more efficient than the British stuff.

Some of that, though, is a side-effect of the ubiquitous "Bank ID" identity tool - which suffers from the same dependency on Apple/Google that the article complains about. Given the current political climate I think the EU is going to have to figure something out to address this sort of thing.

> Silly system.

Frankly it strikes me as being rather silly to not have a British passport as a British citizen.

Yeah, I really don't get this complaint either.

I'm a dual US/UK citizen, and the US has always required citizens to present their US passport to enter the US. The UK is doing the same. It's not a big ask.

Most years I don't visit the UK. My european passport is far more useful to me.

Note that this is an active change to the status quo. Up to and including today I had no need for my UK passport when entering the UK on my Swedish passport. From tomorrow I cannot do that and there's no reasonable explanation given for why this must change.

Edit: And while obviously this is not a big deal for me financially, there are a bunch of pensioners in the 3 million Brits living abroad and for many of them the £100 fee is a significant and unnecessary outlay.

There is a link that says “I cannot use the app” and at the bottom of the page there is “Apply online instead” which takes you here, and you just press next:

https://apply-for-an-eta.homeoffice.gov.uk/apply/electronic-...

I hope you take my feedback with an open mind as I don't mean anything personal. Your article is an example of people who look at things through their own lens rather than the general one.

I'm certain 95% of the population would be using Apple or Android, and the instructions on the Gov UK site are made for the majority, not for the edge cases.

My comment falls exactly within that, for most people, they define email as Gmail or Outlook. There are people who use Proton, iCloud, or personal domain emails, but the instructions will always mention what the average person would know and identify.

> 89 year old you would absolutely appreciate it

Not just 89 year old you. Also, you on a bad day when you were ill/had 5 hours of sleep/were distracted.

Interacting with other governments feels like a minefield designed to catch you out, in comparison.

It's a bug when you're neither 5 nor 89 or have used it 10 times before...

Look, I know it's a hard problem, and GDS have a lot of talented, smart people. I appreciate making something work for both an 18 year old and an 89 year old is a hard requiement.

IMHO there is nothing wrong with having those help docs easily available so you can read at your leisure, rather than being 'forced' to wade through it each time

Perhaps we can agree to disagree that it's not a 'bug' based on the Government's general approach to how it treats its citizens and what it deems as a requirement (as compared to eg the Netherlands/Germany which is a bit more 'it's not our fault you're stupid', 'go read the docs!')

No, the GDS should definitely replace all services on gov.uk to be only accessible via MCP. "Claude, I've logged into PayPal via oAuth, now renew my passport" /s

    Pages are snappy, terse, consistent, clear and unsurprising

This is a fantastic summary. Also, when you switch to gov.uk after using literally any other modern website, it's always surprising how fast it is.

You're trying to paint me as someone who hates the whole gov.uk experience - which is not what I wrote or implied

I'm allowed to be frustrated and to criticise it - I'm a tax-paying British citizen.

> is just enclowning yourself with a partisan and non-sequitous point.

It's sequitous and highly relevant as GDS is part of the Government. Your comment just reads like a reflexive defensive reply by someone who can't stand any criticism of something they personally like.

Imagine you go into a shop to buy a newspaper every day. And every day, the shop owner explains to you what a newspaper is, what it usually contains, how much it costs, and how to read it

Is that excellent interaction design and good customer service? (edit: not a rhetorical question fwiw)

yeah, but I got the impression that the EU is very much doing it as a retaliation to the US and UK doing it. Tho they could have limited it to just those countries.

> UK customs shits in you shoes?? WTF!

>> EU customs also shits in your shoes

Which was all started by the US' ESTA back in 2009, which I believe now costs $40.

I wish countries would stop trying to be cute with names like ESTA, KETA, ETA, etc and call it what it is: an evisa. These countries lie and say "don't worry bro you don't need a visa bro. Just ride that plane bro. it's free bro.", then you find out there's some government portal that runs 9-5 local time five days a week (holidays off) and requires a $X fee every submission with a chance of failing for a random reason. And it can take days for a response to come.

And people will say "it's not a visa bro. You just need to upload your photo, personal info, pay a fee, and they'll get back to you in a few days to tell you whether you're allowed in." Indonesia and India have identical processes with 5 minute turnaround times. Know what they call them? E-Visas. And if you're not eligible for an evisa, you go get a normal one.

It's tedious because you search for whether a country needs a visa, and results will say "nope", but it turns out if you're from specific nationalities that get visa free travel (but not all), you don't need a visa, but you need some random application for something named with a random combination of letters. And if you don't know that specific name, a shallow search might say you're fine.

Just quit the BS. Call it an evisa. And countries that call their process evisas handle them cheaper, faster, and more easily than ESTA or whatever other scam/visa workaround other countries have.

I've never been rejected yet, but it's a pain in the ass needing to do a deep search, thinking I'm fine since no visa is required, then finding out 3 days before my flight while browsing travel forums there is some secret application I need to submit and their webpage is slow and buggy as hell.

He's not going to visit there, either.

A visa is entirely different. EU citizens of course don't need a visa to visit the UK (or the US, or Canada). The UK always had some special border shenanigans (not in the Schengen, etc etc), even for travelers with EU passports, but demanding an advance application with an associated fee is a new level of ridiculousness.

There's the voice of a person who has never missed a flight because passport control was fucked...

W3C are dragging their feet on WebNFC: https://github.com/w3c/web-nfc/issues/355, which prevents the talking "to the NFC in your passport" flow from being fully implementable in a website (hence requiring you to install an App). Not sure what the current state of this issue is, or if this github issue represents the latest developments in it, but AFAIK it is one of the MAJOR blockers for a fully web-based flow.

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Not really. It doesn't just take a single photo of your face. It takes a scan of it i.e. multiple shots. That requires something a little more complicated than a PHP app from the 90s.

Yes it's aggressive but you'll have fewer problems on the app so why the hell wouldn't they push you through it?

My ticket is complicated :-/

yeah, true...

but then I'm not on social media^[1]. Gave up on those things way before social media fatigue became en vogue.

I was just frustrated with the whole app experience. Some people had a smoother experience, which is fine. Mine was terrible, and I'm sure my parents would not have been able to use this at all.

[1] I am still on LI... which is something I want to give up next.