147 pointsby fittingopposite7 hours ago20 comments
  • cjbarber5 hours ago
    It could be interesting to do the metric of intelligence per second.

    ie intelligence per token, and then tokens per second

    My current feel is that if Sonnet 4.6 was 5x faster than Opus 4.6, I'd be primarily using Sonnet 4.6. But that wasn't true for me with prior model generations, in those generations the Sonnet class models didn't feel good enough compared to the Opus class models. And it might shift again when I'm doing things that feel more intelligence bottlenecked.

    But fast responses have an advantage of their own, they give you faster iteration. Kind of like how I used to like OpenAI Deep Research, but then switched to o3-thinking with web search enabled after that came out because it was 80% of the thoroughness with 20% of the time, which tended to be better overall.

    • estsauver3 hours ago
      I think there's clearly a "Speed is a quality of it's own" axis. When you use Cereberas (or Groq) to develop an API, the turn around speed of iterating on jobs is so much faster (and cheaper!) then using frontier high intelligence labs, it's almost a different product.

      Also, I put together a little research paper recently--I think there's probably an underexplored option of "Use frontier AR model for a little bit of planning then switch to diffusion for generating the rest." You can get really good improvements with diffusion models! https://estsauver.com/think-first-diffuse-fast.pdf

      • refulgentis3 hours ago
        I'm very worried for both.

        Cerebras requires a $3K/year membership to use APIs.

        Groq's been dead for about 6 months, even pre-acquisition.

        I hope Inception is going well, it's the only real democratic target at this. Gemini 2.5 Flash Lite was promising but it never really went anywhere, even by the standards of a Google preview

        • nl3 hours ago
          Taalas is interesting. 16,000 TPS for Llama on a chip.

          https://taalas.com/

          • micw16 minutes ago
            On a very old model, it's more like 16.000 garbage words/s
        • ainch3 hours ago
          I don't think it's a good comparison given Inception work on software and Cerebras/Groq work on hardware. If Inception demonstrate that diffusion LLMs work well at scale (at a reasonable price) then we can probably expect all the other frontier labs to copy them quickly, similarly to OpenAI's reasoning models.
          • refulgentis3 hours ago
            Definitely depends on what you're buying, maybe some of the audience here was buying Groq and Cerebras chips? I don't think they sold them but can't say for sure.

            If you're a poor schmoke like me, you'd be thinking of them as API vendors of ~1000 token/s LLMs.

            Especially because Inception v1's been out for a while and we haven't seen a follow-the-leader effect.

            Coincidentally, that's one of my biggest questions: why not?

        • freeqaz3 hours ago
          You can call Cerebras APIs via OpenRouter if you specify them as the provider in your request fyi. It's a bit pricier but it exists!
          • andai2 hours ago
            I used their API normally (pay per token) a few weeks ago. Their Coding Plan appears to be permanently sold out though.
        • estsauver2 hours ago
          I am currently using their APIs on a paygo plan, I think it might just be a capacity issue for new sign ups.
        • behnamoh44 minutes ago
          Once again, it's a tech that Google created but never turned into a product. AFAIK in their demo last year, Google showed a special version of Gemini that used diffusion. They were so excited about it (on the stage) and I thought that's what they'd use in Google search and Gmail.
        • 7thpower3 hours ago
          What do you mean by Grow is dead since about 6 months ago? Not refuting your point, but I’m curious.
          • refulgentis3 hours ago
            No new model since GPT-OSS 120B, er maybe Kimi K2 not-thinking? Basically there were a couple models it normally obviously support, and it didn't.

            Something about that Nvidia sale smelled funny to me because the # was yuge, yet, the software side shut down decently before the acquisition.

            But that's 100% speculation, wouldn't be shocked if it was:

            "We were never looking to become profitable just on API users, but we had to have it to stay visible. So, yeah, once it was clear an Nvidia sale was going through, we stopped working 16 hours a day, and now we're waiting to see what Nvidia wants to do with the API"

    • bigbuppo4 hours ago
      Maybe make that intelligence per token per relative unit of hardware per watt. If you're burning 30 tons of coal to be 0.0000000001% better than the 5 tons of coal option because you're throwing more hardware at it, well, it's not much of a real improvement.
      • estsauver2 hours ago
        I think the fast inference options have historically been only marginally more expensive then their slow cousins. There's a whole set of research about optimal efficiency, speed, and intelligence pareto curves. If you can deliver even an outdated low intelligence/old model at high efficiency, everyone will be interested. If you can deliver a model very fast, everyone will be interested. (If you can deliver a very smart model, everyone is obviously the most interested, but that's the free space.)

        But to be clear, 1000 tokens/second is WAY better. Anthropic's Haiku serves at ~50 tokens per second.

    • volodia4 hours ago
      We agree! In fact, there is an emerging class of models aimed at fast agentic iteration (think of Composer, the Flash versions of proprietary and open models). We position Mercury 2 as a strong model in this category.
      • estsauver2 hours ago
        Do you guys all think you'll be able to convert open source models to diffusion models relatively cheaply ala the d1 // LLaDA series of papers? If so, that seems like an extremely powerful story where you get to retool the much, much larger capex of open models into high performance diffusion models.

        (I can also see a world where it just doesn't make sense to share most of the layers/infra and you diverge, but curious how you all see the approach.)

    • josephg4 hours ago
      Yeah I agree with this. We might be able to benchmark it soon (if we can’t already) but asking different agentic code models to produce some relatively simple pieces of software. Fast models can iterate faster. Big models will write better code on the first attempt, and need less loop debugging. Who will win?

      At the moment I’m loving opus 4.6 but I have no idea if its extra intelligence makes it worth using over sonnet. Some data would be great!

      • estsauver2 hours ago
        For what it's worth, most people already are doing this! Some of the subagents in Claude Code (Explore, I think even compaction) default to Haiku and then you have to manually overwrite it with an env variable if you want to change it.

        Imagine the quality of life upgrade of getting compaction down to a few second blip, or the "Explore" going 20 times faster! As these models get better, it will be super exciting!

    • dmichulkean hour ago
      Useful for evaluating people as well
    • nubg4 hours ago
      Interesting perspective. Perhaps also the user would adopt his queries knowing he can only to small (but very fast) steps. I wonder who would win!
  • volodia4 hours ago
    Co-founder / Chief Scientist at Inception here. If helpful, I’m happy to answer technical questions about Mercury 2 or diffusion LMs more broadly.
    • gok13 minutes ago
      Do you use fully bidirectional attention or is it at all causal?
    • nowittyusername3 hours ago
      How does the whole kv cache situation work for diffusion models? Like are there latency and computation/monetary savings for caching? is the curve similar to auto regressive caching options? or maybe such things dont apply at all and you can just mess with system prompt and dynamically change it every turn because there's no savings to be had? or maybe you can make dynamic changes to the head but also get cache savings because of diffusion based architecture?... so many ideas...
      • volodia3 hours ago
        There are many ways to do it, but the simplest approach is block diffusion: https://m-arriola.com/bd3lms/

        There are also more advanced approaches, for example FlexMDM, which essentially predicts length of the "canvas" as it "paints tokens" on it.

    • nl3 hours ago
      I had a very odd interaction somewhat similar to how weak transformer models get into a loop:

      https://gist.github.com/nlothian/cf9725e6ebc99219f480e0b72b3...

      What causes this?

      • volodia3 hours ago
        This looks like an inference glitch that we are working on fixing, thank you for flagging.
    • kristianp4 hours ago
      How big is Mercury 2? How many tokens is it trained on?

      Is it's agentic accuracy good enough to operate, say, coding agents without needing a larger model to do more difficult tasks?

      • volodia4 hours ago
        You can think of Mercury 2 as roughly in the same intelligence tier as other speed-optimized models (e.g., Haiku 4.5, Grok Fast, GPT-Mini–class systems). The main differentiator is latency — it’s ~5× faster at comparable quality.

        We’re not positioning it as competing with the largest models (Opus 4.5, etc.) on hardest-case reasoning. It’s more of a “fast agent” model (like Composer in Cursor, or Haiku 4.5 in some IDEs): strong on common coding and tool-use tasks, and providing very quick iteration loops.

        • xanth3 hours ago
          Are you dogfooding it on simple tasks? If so what do you use it for regularly and what do you avoid?
        • nayroclade3 hours ago
          Is the approach fundamentally limited to smaller models? Or could you theoretically train a model as powerful as the largest models, but much faster?
    • techbro923 hours ago
      Do you think you will be moving towards drifting models in the future for even more speed?
      • volodia3 hours ago
        Not imminently, but hard to predict where the field will go
    • CamperBob24 hours ago
      Seems to work pretty well, and it's especially interesting to see answers pop up so quickly! It is easily fooled by the usual trick questions about car washes and such, but seems on par with the better open models when I ask it math/engineering questions, and is obviously much faster.
      • volodia4 hours ago
        Thanks for trying it and for the thoughtful feedback, really appreciate it. And we’re actively working on improving quality further as we scale the models.
  • vicchenaian hour ago
    The iteration speed advantage is real but context-specific. For agentic workloads where you're running loops over structured data -- say, validating outputs or exploring a dataset across many small calls -- the latency difference between a 50 tok/s model and a 1000+ tok/s one compounds fast. What would take 10 minutes wall-clock becomes under a minute, which changes how you prototype.

    The open question for me is whether the quality ceiling is high enough for cases where the bottleneck is actually reasoning, not iteration speed. volodia's framing of it as a "fast agent" model (comparable tier to Haiku 4.5) is honest -- for the tasks that fit that tier, the 5x speed advantage is genuinely interesting.

  • dvt6 hours ago
    What excites me most about these new 4figure/second token models is that you can essentially do multi-shot prompting (+ nudging) and the user doesn't even feel it, potentially fixing some of the weird hallucinatory/non-deterministic behavior we sometimes end up with.
    • volodia4 hours ago
      That is also our view! We see Mercury 2 as enabling very fast iteration for agentic tasks. A single shot at a problem might be less accurate, but because the model has a shorter execution time, it enables users to iterate much more quickly.
    • lostmsu2 hours ago
      Regular models are very fast if you do batch inference. GPT-OSS 20B gets close to 2k tok/s on a single 3090 at bs=64 (might be misremembering details here).
  • rancar2an hour ago
    My attempt with trying one of their OOTB prompts in the demo https://chat.inceptionlabs.ai resulted in: "The server is currently overloaded. Please try again in a moment."

    And a pop-up error of: "The string did not match the expected pattern."

    That happened three times, then the interface stopped working.

    I was hoping to see how this stacked up against Taalas demo, which worked well and was so fast every time I've hit it this past week.

  • nylonstrung4 hours ago
    I'm not sold on diffusion models.

    Other labs like Google have them but they have simply trailed the Pareto frontier for the vast majority of use cases

    Here's more detail on how price/performance stacks up

    https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/mercury-2

    • volodia4 hours ago
      I’d push back a bit on the Pareto point.

      On speed/quality, diffusion has actually moved the frontier. At comparable quality levels, Mercury is >5× faster than similar AR models (including the ones referenced on the AA page). So for a fixed quality target, you can get meaningfully higher throughput.

      That said, I agree diffusion models today don’t yet match the very largest AR systems (Opus, Gemini Pro, etc.) on absolute intelligence. That’s not surprising: we’re starting from smaller models and gradually scaling up. The roadmap is to scale intelligence while preserving the large inference-time advantage.

    • nylonstrung2 hours ago
      I changed my mind: this would be perfect for a fast edit model ala Morph Fast Apply https://www.morphllm.com/products/fastapply

      It looks like they are offering this in the form of "Mercury Edit"and I'm keen to try it

    • ainch3 hours ago
      This understates the possible headroom as technical challenges are addressed - text diffusion is significantly less developed than autoregression with transformers, and Inception are breaking new ground.
      • nylonstrung2 hours ago
        Very good point- if as much energy/money that's gone into ChatGPT style transformer LLMs were put into diffusion there's a good chance it would outperform in every dimension
  • dmixan hour ago
    I tried Mercury 1 in Zed for inline completions and it was significantly slower than Cursors autocomplete. Big reason why I switched backed to Cursor(free)+Claude Code
  • ilaksh5 hours ago
    It seems like the chat demo is really suffering from the effect of everything going into a queue. You can't actually tell that it is fast at all. The latency is not good.

    Assuming that's what is causing this. They might show some kind of feedback when it actually makes it out of the queue.

    • volodia4 hours ago
      Thank you for your patience. We are working to handle the surge in demand.
  • serjester3 hours ago
    There's a potentially amazing use case here around parsing PDFs to markdown. It seems like a task with insane volume requirements, low budget, and the kind of thing that doesn't benefit much from autoregression. Would be very curious if your team has explored this.
  • nowittyusername3 hours ago
    Nice, I'm excited to try this for my voice agent, at worst it could be used to power the human facing agent for latency reduction.
    • volodia3 hours ago
      Would love to hear about your experience. Send us an email.
  • tl2do6 hours ago
    Genuine question: what kinds of workloads benefit most from this speed? In my coding use, I still hit limitations even with stronger models, so I'm interested in where a much faster model changes the outcome rather than just reducing latency.
    • layoric5 hours ago
      I think it would assist in exploiting exploring multiple solution spaces in parallel, and can see with the right user in the loop + tools like compilers, static analysis, tests, etc wrapped harness, be able to iterate very quickly on multiple solutions. An example might be, "I need to optimize this SQL query" pointed to a locally running postgres. Multiple changes could be tested, combined, and explain plan to validate performance vs a test for correct results. Then only valid solutions could be presented to developer for review. I don't personally care about the models 'opinion' or recommendations, using them for architectural choices IMO is a flawed use as a coding tool.

      It doesn't change the fact that the most important thing is verification/validation of their output either from tools, developer reviewing/making decisions. But even if don't want that approach, diffusion models are just a lot more efficient it seems. I'm interested to see if they are just a better match common developer tasks to assist with validation/verification systems, not just writing (likely wrong) code faster.

    • cjbarber5 hours ago
      I've tried a few computer use and browser use tools and they feel relatively tok/s bottlenecked.

      And in some sense, all of my claude code usage feels tok/s bottlenecked. There's never really a time where I'm glad to wait for the tokens, I'd always prefer faster.

    • volodia3 hours ago
      There are few: fast agents, deep research, real-time voice, coding. The other thing is that when you have a fast reasoning model, you spend more effort on thinking in the same latency budget, which pushed up quality.
    • corysama3 hours ago
      Coding auto-complete?
    • irthomasthomas6 hours ago
      multi-model arbitration, synthesis, parallel reasoning etc. Judging large models with small models is quite effective.
    • quotemstr4 hours ago
      Once you make a model fast and small enough, it starts to become practical to use LLMs for things as mundane as spell checking, touchscreen-keyboard tap disambiguation, and database query planning. If the fast, small model is multimodal, use it in a microwave to make a better DWIM auto-cook.

      Hell, want to do syntax highlighting? Just throw buffer text into an ultra-fast LLM.

      It's easy to overlook how many small day-to-day heuristic schemes can be replaced with AI. It's almost embarrassing to think about all the totally mundane uses to which we can put fast, modest intelligence.

  • chriskanan4 hours ago
    I can see some promise with diffusion LLMs, but getting them comparable to the frontier is going to require a ton of work and these closed source solutions probably won't really invigorate the field to find breakthroughs. It is too bad that they are following the path of OpenAI with closed models without details as far as I can tell.
  • mhitza5 hours ago
    Comment retracted. My bad, missed some details.
    • selcuka4 hours ago
      I think your comment is a bit unfair.

      > no reasoning comparison

      Benchmarks against reasoning models:

      https://www.inceptionlabs.ai/blog/introducing-mercury-2

      > no demo

      https://chat.inceptionlabs.ai/

      > no info on numbers of parameters for the model

      This is a closed model. Do other providers publish the number of parameters for their models?

      > testimonials that don't actually read like something used in production

      Fair point.

      • volodia4 hours ago
        Just to clarify one point: Mercury (the original v1, non-reasoning model) is already used in production in mainstream IDEs like Zed: https://zed.dev/blog/edit-prediction-providers

        Mercury v1 focused on autocomplete and next-edit prediction. Mercury 2 extends that into reasoning and agent-style workflows, and we have editor integrations available (docs linked from the blog). I’d encourage folks to try the models!

      • mhitza4 hours ago
        You are right edited my post (twice actually). Missed the chat first time around (though its hard to see it as a reasoning model when chain of thought is hidden, or not obvious. I guess this is the new normal), and also missed the reasoning table because text is pretty small on mobile and I thought its another speed benchmark.
        • selcuka10 minutes ago
          I tried their chat demo again, and if you set reasoning effort to "High", you sometimes see the chain of thought before the answer (click the "Thought for n seconds" text to expand it).

          That being said, the chain is pretty basic. It's possible that they don't disclose the full follow-up prompt list.

    • pants24 hours ago
      Reading such obvious LLM-isms in the announcement just makes me cringe a bit too, ex.

      > We optimize for speed users actually feel: responsiveness in the moments users experience — p95 latency under high concurrency, consistent turn-to-turn behavior, and stable throughput when systems get busy.

  • exabrial3 hours ago
    I believe Jimmy Chat is still faster by an order of magnitude…
    • poly2it3 hours ago
      What does Jimmy Chat have to do with diffusion models?
  • lprimeisafk4 hours ago
    It fails the car wash test
    • emi2k014 hours ago
      The test:

      > The car wash is 100m away from my house. Should I walk or drive?

      I didn't find a way to share the conversation, so here it is the full response in `medium` settings:

      ---

      Walking 100 m is a very short distance—roughly a minute or two at a normal pace. In most situations, walking will be quicker overall because you avoid the time needed to get into the car, start it, and find parking. It also saves fuel and is better for the environment.

      *Consider these factors before deciding:*

      | Factor | Walking | Driving | |--------|---------|---------| | *Time* | ~1–2 min (plus a few seconds to step out) | ~1 min driving, plus ~1–2 min to get in/out and park | | *Energy/Fuel* | None | Uses a small amount of fuel | | *Weather* | Comfortable if dry & mild | Better if it’s raining, very hot, or icy | | *Physical ability* | Easy for most people | Not needed for such a short trip | | *Car availability* | Not required | Must have a car nearby and be willing to use it | | *Environmental impact* | Zero emissions | Small emissions |

      *Recommendation:* If the weather is pleasant and you don’t need the car for anything else right away, walking is the simplest, fastest, and most eco‑friendly choice. Drive only if you’re dealing with inclement weather, have heavy items to carry, or need the car immediately after the wash.

      Do you have any specific constraints (e.g., rain, heavy bags, time pressure) that might affect the decision?

      • rtfeldman3 hours ago
        If a stranger asks me, "Should I walk or drive to this car wash?" then I assume they're asking in good faith and both options are reasonable for their situation. So it's a safe assumption that they're not going there to get their car washed. Maybe they're starting work there tomorrow, for example, and don't know how pedestrian-friendly the route is.

        Is the goal behind evaluating models this way to incentivize training them to assume we're bad-faith tricksters even when asking benign questions like how best to traverse a particular 100m? I can't imagine why it would be desirable to optimize for that outcome.

        (I'm not saying that's your goal personally - I mean the goal behind the test itself, which I'd heard of before this thread. Seems like a bad test.)

        • zamalek3 hours ago
          > I need to get my car washed; should I drive or walk to the car wash that is 100m away?

          > Walking 100 m is generally faster, cheaper, and better for the environment than driving such a short distance. If you have a car that’s already running and you don’t mind a few extra seconds, walking also avoids the hassle of finding parking or worrying about traffic.

  • davistreybig2 hours ago
    This is unbelievably fast
  • dw5ight3 hours ago
    this looks awesome!!
  • MarcLore4 hours ago
    [dead]
  • dhruv30064 hours ago
    I am little underwhelmed by anything diffusion at the moment - they didn't really deliver.
    • quotemstr4 hours ago
      What isn't these days? I've found it pointless to get upset about it.
      • dhruv30064 hours ago
        We need a new architecture - i wonder what ilya is cooking.
  • arjie4 hours ago
    Please pre-render your website on the server. Client-side JS means that my agent cannot read the press-release and that reduces the chance I am going to read it myself. Also, day one OpenRouter increases the chance that someone will try it.