59 pointsby JumpCrisscross5 hours ago8 comments
  • mcny3 hours ago
    > At Amirkabir University of Technology in Tehran, students dressed in black shouted “Long Live the Shah,” a reference to Reza Pahlavi, the exiled son of Iran’s last monarch, who has emerged as a leader of the recent protests.

    This is unfortunate and gives the regime a chance to say "see, these people are puppets of the monarchy".

    I feel like the people who want a monarchy installed are trying to fish in troubled waters.

    • ifwinterco2 hours ago
      Not puppets of the monarchy per se but at least some of them may be puppets of foreign actors who are backing the monarchy.

      Honestly very hard to say, I don’t know what to believe about the Iran situation. I think it’s pretty much impossible to get a good understanding of it from a western country

      • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
        > Honestly very hard to say

        It really isn't. Inflation at a fraction of Iran's prompts governments to change in any democracy.

    • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
      > gives the regime a chance to say "see, these people are puppets of the monarchy"

      Regime isn't the messaging target. Foreign actors are. And rightly or wrongly, desperate people will choose the icons they have, and the set to choose from is generally those that are helping and those the current regime despises. The first set is scarce. So we're left with the second.

    • ukblewis3 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • thomassmith653 hours ago
        The points are valid, but why the personal insults?

        Re: the grandparent comment.

        "Javid Shah" is one of the main chants of the recent protests. It's not particularly specific. Reza Pahlavi is the main figurehead of the opposition. He's a likely candidate to preside over a transitional government if this new revolution succeeds.

        The regime's positioning is largely irrelevant now. The people are liable to adopt the opposite position simply because they see the regime as their enemy.

  • blell3 hours ago
    This article glows.
  • alephnerd4 hours ago
    FYI - in Persianate Islam (Shia and Sunni), the 40th day of mourning is extremely important, which is called Arbaeen, Chehelom, Chawlisan, or Qirq depending on the region. This is when mourners will conduct a procession.

    It has been roughly 40 days since the massacres began, and something similar happened in 1979 during the revolution, which was largely sparked during the mourning period (chehelom) for the Qom Massacre.

    The cynic in me feels that this must have been recognized by policymakers given how critical the motif of martyrdom is in Persianate culture as Ali Shariati, Ahmed Fardid, and Jalal Al-e-Ahmad - the three pillars of modern Iranian philosophy and culture, as well as the Shia undertones of the 1979 Revolution - have elucidated.

    Edit: can't reply

    > This just shows how bad the situation for our philosophy and culture have become in the last century...

    Yep.

    I don't agree with their beliefs, but you cannot decouple a large portion of modern Iran from Shariati/Fardid/Al-e-Ahmad's motifs, which themselves are largely derived from Iqbal and Heidegger.

    • yolkedgeek4 hours ago
      > Ali Shariati, Ahmed Fardid, and Jalal Al-e-Ahmad - the three pillars of modern Iranian philosophy and culture

      This just shows how bad the situation for our philosophy and culture have become in the last century...

      I really wouldn't call these charlatans "pillars of modern Iranian philosophy and culture"

      • browie3 hours ago
        That's just an opinion, not an argument. It adds nothing valuable to this discussion. If you want to criticize, can you point to specific things and explain your reasoning? It might be useful, to make an actual point. Or whatever.
    • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
      Is there a good book on “the three pillars of modern Iranian philosophy” that could serve as an overview to someone unfamiliar?
      • alephnerd4 hours ago
        The main primary sources I'd say are:

        1. "Occidentosis: A Plague from the West" by Jalal Al-e-Ahmad

        2. "Red Shi'ism vs. Black Shi'ism" by Ali Shariati

        3. "Martyrdom: Arise and Bear Witness" by Ali Shariati

        4. "The Purification of the Soul" by Ahmed Fardid

        Most modern Iranian Shia philosophy is largely a synthesis of Heiddiger and Muhammad Iqbal ("Saare Jahan Se Aacha, Hindustan Humara"), as these Iranian philosophers were largely from Khorasan and Dari speaking so most were acquaintances with Iqbal, who popularized Heiddiger's thought across Persianate society.

        Basically, if you synthesize Heidigger's concept of authenticity with the Persianate motif of martyrdom with a dose of Persianate chauvinism and Shia theology, you have what became Khomeinism.

        It's basically Maoism but with the Marxist-Leninist and Confucian undertones replaced with Shia and Persianate undertones.

        I also can't help but notice how both Mao/Li/Chen and Shariati/Fardid/Al-e-Ahmad were all members of the rural elite who faced dislocation when immigrating to urban society in the early 20th century.

        Edit: can't reply

        > Are there specific translations you’d call out

        We had English translations at Widener Library [0]. There might be similar ones online. Idk, I don't want to get on a list.

        > Wait, is this Farsi? I think I can parse it with my rough knowledge of Hindi

        Muhammad Iqbal was both an Indian freedom fighter, the creator of the Pakistan movement, and one of the first modern Persianate scholars.

        Back during that era, most Persian scholarship was centered amongst the South Asian community. Additionally, educated Koshur and Paharis (irrespective of religion) from that era were heavily Persianate in outlook (eg. Even Koshur Hindus back then would consider studying a BA Persian as an alternative to a BA Sanskrit).

        As such, Iqbal's works were very common amongst the madrassa-turned-western educated Iranian intelligentsia of the early 20th century.

        [0] - https://library.harvard.edu/collections/middle-eastern-colle...

        • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
          Are these texts accessible to someone without a lot of context for Persian culture? (Are there specific translations you’d call out?)

          > Saare Jahan Se Aacha, Hindustan Humara

          Wait, is this Farsi? I think I can parse it with my rough knowledge of Hindi.

  • Herring4 hours ago
    Good luck to them. None of the Arab Spring revolutions have gone well. 0/6
    • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
      > None of the Arab Spring revolutions have gone well

      None of the Arab-Spring populations had democratic rule since, arguably, Carthage. Iran is different [1].

      More importantly, Iran was recently a secular society. It has memory of education and freedom. Many Arab countries have been fundamentalist for their entire modern eras.

      (To be clear, every first democracy arose from the ashes of a string of fallen autocrats. I'm arguing for Iran being different from Egypt, Tunisia or Gaza.)

      [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_classical_Iran

      • regularization3 hours ago
        Iran had a parliament until they wanted Iran to control its own oil, whence the US and UK overthrew Mossadegh. They had ayatollah Borujerdi wreck the democracy. Also Kashani who helped oust Mossadegh, and then later supported Khomeini.

        The US recently worked to oust the secular leader of Syria to replace him with an ISIS leader. Actually al-Sharaa was on the US wanted terrorist list, only removed three months ago. Many such stories.

        • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
          Sure. Not sure what about any of that says Iranians are incapable of governing themselves as a democracy.
      • clot273 hours ago
        Crass bullshit. Democracy wont survive in iran until the govt want their oil to be depleted by western war hungry demons. We truly live in hell
        • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
          > Democracy wont survive in iran until the govt want their oil to be depleted by western war hungry demons

          Yet somehow Brazil, Mexico, India and hosts of other non-European-origin-majority resource-rich democracies exist.

          That said, maybe the limiting factor on democracy is agency. If a culture blames outside forces for all of its woes, there is nothing it can–within that worldview–do to self improve. So it won't. If, on the other hand, it separates the factors it can control from those it can't (and nobody can control all of the factors, that's just reality), it has a hope.

          • clot272 hours ago
            CIA meddles in elections of practically all 3 of those countries and none of them are openly anti America. If you are liberal bourgeoise democracy you cant be anti america, thats the standard set by epstienite empire, doesnt seem much freedom of choice is given to them? When was the last time america did a coup in those countries and killed their leader?

            No one wants their country to be controlled by child eating pedophiles. Its funny when those funding genocide in gaza lecture other cultures about agency

          • Herring2 hours ago
            Yeah if anything the US is the real victim here, we constantly have to go cleaning up things over there at great expense.
    • mmasu4 hours ago
      maybe the fact that Persians != Arabs will improve their odds. Recent uprisings had more luck (i.e. Bangladesh), even if it’s too early to fully assess their success
    • nickff4 hours ago
      The status quo in Iran isn’t going well either; the economy is terrible and getting worse, and the government is slaughtering its own citizens.
      • throwaway274484 hours ago
        > the economy is terrible and getting worse

        we could always stop punishing the people of Iran for their government...

        • nickff3 hours ago
          And the government could stop murdering people.
        • regularization3 hours ago
          Right, a clearer way of saying this, as you do, is the West imposed crippling sanctions just prior to all of this, as Trump sends aircraft carriers to the Gulf.
          • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
            > a clearer way of saying this, as you do, is the West imposed crippling sanctions

            The world doesn't revolve around the West. Nobody in America caused the IRGC to engineer a water crisis. Nobody asked for them to murder students in an internet-connected age, like the single thing you do not do if you want to calm things down.

            Sanctions have made Iranians poorer. But so has their gerontocratic theocracy pursuing autarky and misguided nuclear ambitions at any cost. Khamenei can't hold open elections because he knows he'd lose.

        • ukblewis3 hours ago
          Right and we could allow that government to continue to murder tens of thousands of it’s innocent civilians, build proxy armies that are larger than all the armies of Europe to kill all the Jews, to murder all of their minorities and anyone that remotely scares them while they build nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles that they could use to murder Americans in the east coast, I mean they so scream “Death to America!” at all of their pro Islamic regime rallies … Or was that not what you meant?
          • clot273 hours ago
            Building nukes is good, they should get some Get this idea of killing all jews out, no one buys it. Its good atleast some major country is anti israel and capable of attacking the settler colonial apartheid state. Death to America is based and normal given what america has done to their country.
    • logicchains3 hours ago
      The Tunisian revolution was a success.
  • redwood4 hours ago
    Brave heroes.
  • clot273 hours ago
    good luck just dont become western slaves
  • arkis224 hours ago
    [flagged]