137 pointsby tylerdane7 hours ago13 comments
  • gerdesj4 hours ago
    In 1992ish I worked at RNEC Manadon (UK, Devon). I was asked by my boss to investigate this new www thing.

    I telnetted to the nearest VAX from my Win 3.1 PC. I then telnetted to the X.25 PAD and used that to go via the US to Switzerland and CERN. It looked just like gopher and WAIS to me and that's how I reported back - "it looks the same as gopher".

    When Tim BL invented www, html and that, browsers were telnet and graphics was a nonsense.

    • hackingonempty4 hours ago
      The experience was very different on a NeXT computer.

      WAIS was modeled after the built in DigitalLibrarian software. You would select a site in the upper pane, and enter a search term in the box in the middle, and a list of documents would come back in the bottom pane that you could double click and open. Very search engine like.

      Gopher was structured and I think Gemini today still sticks with the format. You load a site and the hierarchy of links appeared in a column browser up top and selected documents appeared in the bottom pane.

      WWW didn't seem like much in comparison because they were freeform documents without app level navigation support and there wasn't support for images or much formatting and people had not learned to make web pages so it was really hard to see the future of what it would grow to become.

      I'm not known for picking winners :-(

      • hinkley3 hours ago
        My early career was defined by showing up ten minutes late to several revolutions in a row.

        I had a friend who was the most junior developer on the Mosaic team and one day he took me to his office to show me a text document with an image in the middle of it. In theory I met Marc Andreesen and Eric Bina that day but I just wanted to go do something with my friend. I did not get it. At all. A year later my girlfriend had to re-explain it to me and then another few months later I applied to work there in a support role. I don't think she knew what to do with the level of enthusiasm I wasn't bringing to this opportunity.

        A year after that I'm sitting in a bar after a tech convention in Chicago, wearing my Mosaic t-shirt, and someone said, 'where did you get that shirt?' When I told them we were on the team, you'd have thought I'd said we were Madonna's backup band.

        I never entirely understood that "I'd rather be lucky than good" sentiment until my luck ran out, and now I know.

        • FpUser3 hours ago
          >"My early career was defined by showing up ten minutes late to several revolutions in a row."

          Ha, I missed so many great things. The most obvious was not to buy $10K worth of bitcoin when it just started.

          Luckily (or not) I am an easy going person and do not dwell on things.

          • MarcelOlsz43 minutes ago
            Hey at least you didn't aggressively "day trade" it all away with your idiot friends who moved in and tried to start a "fund". Good times.
          • hinkley2 hours ago
            I could have retired making early iPhone apps but I was already so burned out on how shitty mobile carriers were behaving that I just sat it out.
          • nurettin29 minutes ago
            In the beginning you didn't really buy BTC. You could mine a few off of your nvidia card in less than a week.

            I was focused on doing useless things like cracking md5 hashed passwords and didn't really believe you could pay for things with it.

            Regret on a different level.

      • jibal3 hours ago
        > people had not learned to make web pages

        Because there wasn't a widespread usable browser until Mosaic came along, 2 1/2 years after WWW.

      • donw3 hours ago
        Something that just occurred to me: RAGs are almost Gopher for AIs.
    • jcims4 hours ago
      I worked at an EDI company in the mid 90s. X.25 was the wild west. We had a router set up on it that would happily stand up a ppp session to anyone that knew the node name. No password, right on the core network lol.
      • icedchai3 hours ago
        It certainly was! I remember connecting to Tymnet and Sprintnet/Telenet as a teenager, probably around 1990 or 91. Someone on a local BBS gave me a username that let me connect to QSD and another European chat system. Someone on there had taken over the "system" account on a VAX and was giving out accounts that let you use it as PAD. This went on for weeks. The company must've freaked when they got their x.25 bill. Zero security in those days. The early Internet was just as bad.
    • qingcharles3 hours ago
      I got on the 'Net in 1993. The Web was very "meh". A lot of tutorials on how to write HTML, very little useful content yet. IRC and Usenet were where the action was.
      • flomo18 minutes ago
        Wired Magazine famously agreed with you. Usenet was where it was at then.

        Internet commercialization wasn't really on until 1994. Then anyone could get dial-up IP, they could put ads on their webpages, and etc.

      • razingeden3 hours ago
        I remember that. I had almost zero interest in www until geocities came along and then …it was something else to compose and publish a “website”

        The whole thing was atrocious but at least introduced me to the concept.

        In fact, I had to spend like three days downloading Netscape to try it out because I didn’t even have a graphical browser yet.

  • fsloth6 hours ago
    Fun fact: Erwise[0] was the first _graphical_ browser developed by a group of students in Helsinki University of Technology with Sir Berners Lee. Sadly there was no funding in Finland available at the time and they had to abandon the project and most of the group ended up working at Tekla, contributing to a bunch of cool AEC CAD technology (Tekla is now a Trimble subsidiary).

    [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwise

  • tylerdane7 hours ago
    Direct link to the browser: https://worldwideweb.cern.ch/browser/
    • Kim_Bruning6 hours ago
      Did you notice you can click anywhere in the text and edit it?

      Something was lost along the way.

      (Nowadays you need a separate wiki engine on a site to be able to do that)

      • dadoum4 hours ago
        F12, Console, type

            document.designMode = 'on'
        • dadoum4 hours ago
          (it is slightly different though, as links cannot be followed)
          • creddit15 minutes ago
            F12, Console, type document.designMode = 'off'
        • wesammikhail4 hours ago
          I had no idea. You just blew my mind
      • karlgkk5 hours ago
        > (Nowadays you need a separate wiki engine on a site to be able to do that)

        No you don’t. These browser simply PUTs the request and your web server simply edits the document. Versioning is optional, of course.

      • krapp6 hours ago
        Do we know that they didn't have some backend code handing the editing?

        I don't think a web where every page is globally editable by default would be a good idea, but I can't imagine at all how it would work without a backend, unless all of the changes are just local. But that seems pointless.

        • zabzonk5 hours ago
          > But that seems pointless.

          Making notes for your own consumption?

        • shakna5 hours ago
          Being able to change stylesheets, disable or enhance various JavaScript scripts, add notes and annotations, and other things, is exactly the idea of a user agent.

          The user makes a request, and then does whatever they like with the answer. Not just whatever is sensible, but whatever they want to do.

          If that concept somehow became accepted again... I think the accessible web might well become a solved problem, rather than an endless slog.

          • idiotsecant4 hours ago
            In what way is that not currently possible? All browsers I know of you can edit whatever you want in any page you download
            • shakna2 hours ago
              You'll need to do a bit of work to make it the way it used to be. Editing any text on a page, or having your changes save persistently, needs a bit of a... Framework, to keep things together, rather than being the expected mode of interaction.

              Sure, I can add a p to the tree. But if I refresh, its gone. I'll probably need plugins to keep my own stylesheets and JS changes around.

        • Kim_Bruning5 hours ago
          HTTP has PUT and DELETE for a reason ;-)
        • actionfromafar5 hours ago
          Upload the file when you are done, perhaps?
  • keepamovin2 hours ago
    I love what the CERN team did here visually with the NeXT UI. Rebuilding a historical browser inside a modern one is a fun rabbit hole, but man, it is the same technical wall to hit every time: iframes.

    You build this beautiful retro UI, you wire up the address bar, and then you try to load a modern site and just hit a wall of CORS, X-Frame-Options, and CSP blocks. Which, tho is probably precisely things should work. Otherwise people arbitrarily iframe the open web opening up a massive clickjacking-pocalypse. It makes total sense for security....sigh.

    But I sitll wanted a way to get around it to capture that 90s nostalgia (tho NeXT and this browser were actually from the late 80s), the real open web inside a retro recreation not just a crippled, iframe-blocked imitation. Or "everything links to archive org" stuff.

    To make that work, I had to make a custom embedder API. It basically pipes a fully isolated remote Chromium instance right into the retro shell through an iframe in a custom element. The engine is real, and it respects the native security boundaries because the browser is physically isolated, but it wears that heavy 90s UI so you get the 90s feel.

    If you want to mess around with a different flavor of 90s nostalgia that can actually surf the modern web, I put up a live version here: https://win9-5.com/demo. Sound on for the retro modem dial-up elevator music. The non-graybeards may never have experienced the modem's mating call in the wild.

  • hackingonempty4 hours ago
    It has been about 16 years since I fired up my old NeXTStation Color where I had a copy of 1.0 or a late beta.

    The last time I tried about the only site that worked was useit.com, former home of Nielsen Norman UX experts ;-)

  • 6 hours ago
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  • lysace6 hours ago
    It's a javascript-based imitation, much like all of those js-based imitations of various Windows versions.

    The original source code isn't really involved, which is a shame, since it is actually available.

    IMHO this should have been (something along the lines of) GNUstep + TimBL's original code (mirror: https://github.com/cynthia/WorldWideWeb) + Emscripten + getting Emscripten to work with ObjC. Now, that would have been cool.

    This is the most commented HN posting on this from that time (2019):

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19249373

  • jibal3 hours ago
    > The WWW project does not take responsability

    I guess that let them off the hook for incorrect spelling. :-)

  • mistrial93 hours ago
    network users at that time already had software for ftp and other common tools. Gopher sort of linked logically to an ftp idea. Mosaic was often introduced in the same sentence as "uses a format called HTML" .. Mosaic seemed interesting but also it was obvious that pages in that format would have to become popular, to make more of them. There wasn't a big reason to switch your daily software to Mosaic since stable apps were better for their existing uses. It was a very rare thing to have access to a NeXT machine (maybe not on YNews).

    From my point of view it was Netscape that made a big splash, a year+ later, with a lot of publicity and good graphic design. Mosaic itself was an awkward demo with an interesting nerdy story.

  • java-man6 hours ago
    All the links should point to the 1989 internet instead of "Not Found"

    :-)

  • jmclnx6 hours ago
    Interesting, for some reason I thought lynx was the first browser. I thought I read that a while ago.

    But it makes sense it is a GUI browser since it was developed on a NeXT

    • wahern6 hours ago
      WorldWideWeb didn't originally support inline images, and while using a graphical toolkit rendered pages more like Lynx, albeit with the ability to vary fonts. Lynx wasn't the first WWW browser, but came along shortly after, a year or so after WorldWideWeb, and is the oldest browser still maintained. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_web_browser#Ear...

      I'm having trouble pinning down when WorldWideWeb got inline image support, but based on https://www.w3.org/History/1991-WWW-NeXT/Implementation/Feat... I'm guessing sometime between 1992 and 1994, when there are screenshots with inline images, so maybe after Lynx was published.

      • WillAdams6 hours ago
        • wahern2 hours ago
          WorldWideWeb could display images, but originally only in a separate window when you clicked on them, similar to the way audio, PDFs, and other multimedia worked (and sometimes still work). The wording of one of the people involved seems to confirm this:

          > How was I to know that I was passing an historical milestone, as the one above was the first picture of a band ever to be clicked on in a web browser!"

          Source: https://musiclub.web.cern.ch/bands/cernettes/firstband.html

      • dunham6 hours ago
        It's been a very long time, but my recollection was the Mosaic did images first, and it was non-standard. (The beginning of the end.) I might be thinking of some other feature though.

        I was also disappointed that the editing went away after the first browser. (There was "Amaya" which had editing, but it was a research thing and not a commonly used browser.)

    • hinkley3 hours ago
      IIRC, Viola also got scooped by Mosaic, which was the first browser most people used, before you could buy one shrinkwrapped at a store.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ViolaWWW

      There was also OmniWeb on the Next machine, but there weren't a lot of NeXT machines around.

      Mosaic was the first browser to support images because HTML didn't support images and Marc Andreesen and Eric Bina sat in a coffee shop on campus while Marc talked himself into going rogue and making his own tag while Eric didn't talk him out of it (source, Eric Bina, ACM lecture at UIUC ca 1995)

  • 4 hours ago
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