171 pointsby theahura3 hours ago37 comments
  • MillionOClock2 hours ago
    I really hope someone from any of those companies (if possible all of them) would publish a very clear statement regarding the following question: If I build a commercial app that allows my users to connect using their OAuth token coming from their ChatGPT/Claude etc. account, do they allow me (and their users) to do this or not?

    I totally understand that I should not reuse my own account to provide services to others, as direct API usage is the obvious choice here, but this is a different case.

    I am currently developing something that would be the perfect fit for this OAuth based flow and I find it quite frustrating that in most cases I cannot find a clear answer to this question. I don't even know who I would be supposed to contact to get an answer or discuss this as an independent dev.

    EDIT: Some answers to my comment have pointed out that the ToS of Anthropic were clear, I'm not saying they aren't if taken in a vacuum, yet in practice even after this being published some confusion remained online, in particular regarding wether OAuth token usage was still ok with the Agent SDK for personal usage. If it happens to be, that would lead to other questions I personally cannot find a clear answer to, hence my original statement. Also, I am very interested about the stance of other companies on this subject.

    Maybe I am being overly cautious here but I want to be clear that this is just my personal opinion and me trying to understand what exactly is allowed or not. This is not some business or legal advice.

    • paxys2 hours ago
      I don't see how they can get more clear about this, considering they have repeatedly answered it the exact same way.

      Subscriptions are for first-party products (claude.com, mobile and desktop apps, Claude Code, editor extensions, Cowork).

      Everything else must use API billing.

      • dakolli2 minutes ago
        And at that point, you might as well use OpenRouter's PKCE and give users the option to use other models..

        These kinds of business decisions show how these $200.00 subscriptions for their slot/infinite jest machines basically light that $200.00 on fire, and how in general how unsustainable these business models are.

        Can't wait for it all to fail, they'll eventually try to get as many people to pay per token as possible, while somehow getting people to use their verbose antigentic tools that are able to inflate revenue through inefficient context/ouput shenanigans.

      • firloop2 hours ago
        The biggest reason why this is confusing is the Claude Agent SDK[0] will use subscription/oauth credentials if present. The terms update implies that there's some use cases where that's ok and other use cases (commercial?) where using their SDK on a user's device violates terms.

        [0] https://platform.claude.com/docs/en/agent-sdk/overview

        • theturtletalks2 hours ago
          Had the same question, comment below quotes their docs saying Agent SDK using oAuth token is also not allowed.
        • 2 hours ago
          undefined
      • MillionOClock2 hours ago
        You are talking about Anthropic and indeed compared to OpenAI or GitHub Copilot they have seemed to be the ones with what I would personally describe as a more restrictive approach.

        On the other hand OpenAI and GitHub Copilot have, as far as I know, explicitly allowed their users to connect to at least some third party tools and use their quotas from there, notably to OpenCode.

        What is unclear to me is whether they are considering also allowing commercial apps to do that. For instance if I publish a subscription based app and my users pay for the app itself rather than for LLM inference, would that be allowed?

      • theturtletalks2 hours ago
        What if you wrap the service using their Agent SDK?
        • 2 hours ago
          undefined
      • Imustaskforhelp19 minutes ago
        Quick question but what if I use claude code itself for the purpose?

        https://github.com/rivet-dev/sandbox-agent/tree/main/gigacod... [I saw this inShow HN: Gigacode – Use OpenCode's UI with Claude Code/Codex/Amp] (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46912682)

        This can make Opencode work with Claude code and the added benefit of this is that Opencode has a Typescript SDK to automate and the back of this is still running claude code so technically should work even with the new TOS?

        So in the case of the OP. Maybe Opencode TS SDK <-> claude code (using this tool or any other like this) <-> It uses the oauth sign in option of Claude code users?

        Also, zed can use the ACP protocol itself as well to make claude code work iirc. So is using zed with CC still allowed?

        > I don't see how they can get more clear about this, considering they have repeatedly answered it the exact same way.

        This is confusing quite frankly, there's also the claude agent sdk thing which firloop and others talked about too. Some say its allowed or not. Its all confusing quite frankly.

    • artdigital2 hours ago
      That’s very clearly a no, I don’t understand why so many people think this is unclear.

      You can’t use Claude OAuth tokens for anything. Any solution that exists worked because it pretended/spoofed to be Claude Code. Same for Gemini (Gemini CLI, Antigravity)

      Codex is the only one that got official blessing to be used in OpenClaw and OpenCode, and even that was against the ToS before they changed their stance on it.

      • adastra222 hours ago
        Is Codex ok with any other third party applications, or just those?
        • artdigital32 minutes ago
          By default, assume no. The lack of any official integration guide should be a clear sign. Even saying that you reverse-engineer Codex for apps to pretend to be Codex makes it clear that this is not an officially endorsed thing to do
        • theLiminatoran hour ago
          Interested to know this too
      • croesan hour ago
        But why does it matter which program consumes the tokens?
        • blackoil2 minutes ago
          They'll own entire pipeline interface, conduit, backend. Interface is what people get habitual to. If I am a regular user of Claude Code, I may not shift to competitor for 10-20% gains in cost.
        • esafakan hour ago
          They must be getting something out of it, because we sure aren't.
          • gardnr38 minutes ago
            Cory Doctorow has a word for this..
            • whatsupdog2 minutes ago
              It's enshittification - for those who didn't know.
            • esafak3 minutes ago
              They think their position is strong enough to lock users in. I'm not so sure.
        • KingMob11 minutes ago
          Presumably because their flat rate pricing is based off their ability to manage token use via their first-party tools.

          A third-party tool may be less efficient in saving costs (I have heard many of them don't hit Anthropic LLMs' caches as well).

          Would you be willing to pay more for your plan, to subsidize the use of third-party tools by others?

          ---

          Note, afaik, Anthropic hasn't come out and said this is the reason, but it fits.

          Or, it could also just be that the LLM companies view their agent tools as the real moat, since the models themselves aren't.

    • eleventyseven2 hours ago
      It is pretty obviously no. API keys billed by the token, yes, Oauth to the flat rate plans no.

      > OAuth authentication (used with Free, Pro, and Max plans) is intended exclusively for Claude Code and Claude.ai. Using OAuth tokens obtained through Claude Free, Pro, or Max accounts in any other product, tool, or service — including the Agent SDK — is not permitted and constitutes a violation of the Consumer Terms of Service.

      • MillionOClock2 hours ago
        If you look at this tweet [1] and in particular responses under it, it still seems to me like some parts of it need additional clarification. For instance, I have seen some people interpret the tweet as meaning using the OAuth token is actually ok for personal experimentation with the Agent SDK, which can be seen as a slight contradiction with what you quoted. A parent tweet also mentioned the docs clean up causing some confusion.

        None of this is legal advice, I'm just trying to understand what exactly is allowed or not.

        [1] https://x.com/trq212/status/2024212380142752025?s=10

        • adastra222 hours ago
          Read the actual ToS. What you describe is NOT allowed.
          • eclipxean hour ago
            That tweet is from a product leader on Claude Code itself...
            • kahnclusions41 minutes ago
              A tweet is not a ToS.
              • AlotOfReading28 minutes ago
                Then they should speak to legal about fixing the ToS before making public statements about their intentions with it. It won't look good to show up at arbitration and have to explain why your public comms contradict your ToS.
      • 2 hours ago
        undefined
      • croesan hour ago
        What flatrate?

        Pro and Max are both limited

    • SeanAnderson2 hours ago
      I think you're just trying to see ambiguity where it doesn't exist because the looser interpretation is beneficial to you. It totally makes sense why you'd want that outcome and I'm not faulting you for it. It's just that, from a POV of someone without stake in the game, the answer seems quite clear.
    • ashikns2 hours ago
      > OAuth authentication (used with Free, Pro, and Max plans) is intended exclusively for Claude Code and Claude.ai.

      I think this is pretty clear - No.

    • kovek31 minutes ago
      Does https://happy.engineering/ need to use the API keys or can use oauth? It's basically a frontend for claude-cli.
      • kzahel17 minutes ago
        It doesn't even touch auth right?

        " Usage policy

        Acceptable use Claude Code usage is subject to the Anthropic Usage Policy. Advertised usage limits for Pro and Max plans assume ordinary, individual usage of Claude Code and the Agent SDK"

        That tool clearly falls under ordinary individual use of Claude code. https://yepanywhere.com/ is another such tool. Perfectly ordinary individual usage.

        The tos are confusing because just below that section it talks about authentication/credential use.

      • resonious16 minutes ago
        If it's a wrapper that invokes the `claude` binary then I believe it's fine.
    • laksjhdlka2 hours ago
      Anthropic has published a very clear statement. It's "no".
    • itissid2 hours ago
      One set of applications to build with subscription is to use the claude-go binary directly. Humanlayer/Codelayer projects on GitHub do this. Granted those are not ideal for building a subscription based business to use oathu tokens from Claude and OpenaAI. But you can build a business by building a development env and gating other features behind paywall or just offering enterprise service for certain features like vertical AI(redpanada) offerings knowledge workers, voice based interaction(there was a YC startup here the other day doing this I think), structured outputs and workflows. There is lots to build on.
    • azuanrb2 hours ago
      Usually, it is already stated in their documentation (auth section). If a statement is vague, treat it as a no. It is not worth the risk when they can ban you at any time. For example, ChatGPT allows it, but Claude and Gemini do not.

      https://developers.openai.com/codex/auth

      • MillionOClock2 hours ago
        Maybe I am missing something from the docs of your link, but I unfortunately don't think it actually states anything regarding allowing users to connect and use their Codex quota in third party apps.
        • s-lambert2 hours ago
          https://x.com/thdxr/status/2013010664776683644

          I can't find anything official from OpenAI, but they have worked with the OpenCode people to support using your ChatGPT subscription in OpenCode.

        • adastra222 hours ago
          From TFA: “OAuth authentication (used with Free, Pro, and Max plans) is intended exclusively for Claude Code and Claude.ai. Using OAuth tokens obtained through Claude Free, Pro, or Max accounts in any other product, tool, or service — including the Agent SDK — is not permitted and constitutes a violation of the Consumer Terms of Service.”
          • MillionOClock2 hours ago
            The comment you are responding to is about ChatGPT/Codex, not Claude.
          • raincole2 hours ago
            They're not asking if Claude forbids it. They're asking if OpenAI (Codex, specifically) allows it.
    • OGEnthusiast2 hours ago
      [dead]
  • paxys2 hours ago
    I don't think it's a secret that AI companies are losing a ton of money on subscription plans. Hence the stricter rate limits, new $200+ plans, push towards advertising etc. The real money is in per-token billing via the API (and large companies having enough AI FOMO that they blindly pay the enormous invoices every month).
    • mirzap43 minutes ago
      They are not losing money on subscription plans. Inference is very cheap - just a few dollars per million tokens. What they’re trying to do is bundle R&D costs with inference so they can fund the training of the next generation of models.

      Banning third-party tools has nothing to do with rate limits. They’re trying to position themselves as the Apple of AI companies -a walled garden. They may soon discover that screwing developers is not a good strategy.

      They are not 10× better than Codex; on the contrary, in my opinion Codex produces much better code. Even Kimi K2.5 is a very capable model I find on par with Sonnet at least, very close to Opus. Forcing people to use ONLY a broken Claude Code UX with a subscription only ensures they loose advantage they had.

      • rjh2915 minutes ago
        > "just a few dollars per million tokens"

        Google AI Pro is like $15/month for practically unlimited Pro requests, each of which take million tokens of context (and then also perform thinking, free Google search for grounding, inline image generation if needed). This includes Gemini CLI, Gemini Code Assist (VS Code), the main chatbot, and a bunch of other vibe-coding projects which have their own rate limits or no rate limits at all.

        It's crazy to think this is sustainable. It'll be like Xbox Game Pass - start at £5/month to hook people in and before you know it it's £20/month and has nowhere near as many games.

      • KingMob4 minutes ago
        > They are not losing money on subscription plans. Inference is very cheap - just a few dollars per million tokens. What they’re trying to do is bundle R&D costs with inference so they can fund the training of the next generation of models.

        You've described every R&D company ever.

        "Synthesizing drugs is cheap - just a few dollars per million pills. They're trying to bundle pharmaceutical research costs... etc."

        There's plenty of legit criticisms of this business model and Anthropic, but pointing out that R&D companies sink money into research and then charge more than the marginal cost for the final product, isn't one of them.

    • fulafel21 minutes ago
      Depends on how you do the accounting. Are you counting inference costs or are you amortizing next gen model dev costs. "Inference is profitable" is oft repeated and rarely challenged. Most subscription users are low intensity users after all.
    • sambull2 hours ago
      The secret is there is no path on making that back.
      • JimmaDaRustla2 hours ago
        My crude metaphor to explain to my family is gasoline has just been invented and we're all being lent Bentley's to get us addicted to driving everywhere. Eventually we won't be given free Bentley's, and someone is going to be holding the bag when the infinite money machine finally has a hiccup. The tech giants are hoping their gasoline is the one that we all crave when we're left depending on driving everywhere and the costs go soaring.
        • eruan hour ago
          Why? Computers and anything computer related have historically been dropping in prices like crazy year after year (with only very occasional hiccups). What makes you think this will stop now?
          • shykesan hour ago
            Commodity hardware and software will continue to drop in price.

            Enterprise products with sufficient market share and "stickiness", will not.

            For historical precedent, see the commercial practices of Oracle, Microsoft, Vmware, Salesforce, at the height of their power.

            • hugmynutus16 minutes ago
              > Commodity hardware and software will continue to drop in price.

              The software is free (citation: Cuda, nvcc, llvm, olama/llama cpp, linux, etc)

              The hardware is *not* getting cheaper (unless we're talking a 5+ year time) as most manufacturers are signaling the current shortages will continue ~24 months.

          • adrianNan hour ago
            Cars have also been dropping in price.
          • walterbellan hour ago
            Recent price trends for DRAM, SSDs, hard drives?
            • aftbitan hour ago
              Short term squeeze, because building capacity takes time and real funding. The component manufacturers have been here before. Booms rarely last long enough to justify a build-out. If AI demand turns out to be sustained, the market will eventually adapt by building supply, and prices will drop. If AI demand turns out to be transient, demand will drop, and prices will drop.
          • CamperBob229 minutes ago
            In the GP's analogy, the Bentley can be rented for $3/day, but if you want to purchase it outright, it will cost you $3,000,000.

            Despite the high price, the Bentley factory is running 24/7 and still behind schedule due to orders placed by the rental-car company, who has nearly-infinite money.

        • echelonan hour ago
          I like this analogy.

          I also think we're, as ICs, being given Bentleys meanwhile they're trying to invent Waymos to put us all out of work.

          Humans are the cost center in their world model.

        • rizky05an hour ago
          [dead]
      • snihalanian hour ago
        how do I understand what is the sustainable pricing?
    • mattasan hour ago
      The question I have: how much are they _also_ losing on per-token billing?
      • imachine1980_an hour ago
        From what I understand, they make money per-token billing. Not enough for how much it costs to train, not accounting for marketing, subscription services, and research for new models, but if they are used, they lose less money.

        Finance 101 tldr explanation: The contribution margin (= price per token -variable cost per token ) this is positive

        Profit (= contribution margin x cuantity- fix cost)

    • Someone12342 hours ago
      I agree; unfortunately when I brought up that they're losing before I get jumped on demanding me to "prove it" and I guess pointing at their balance sheets isn't good enough.
    • dcre27 minutes ago
      Why do you think they're losing money on subscriptions?
      • Yossarrian2223 minutes ago
        Because they're not saying they are making a profit
        • mikeg818 minutes ago
          That doesn’t mean that the subscription itself is losing money. The margin on the subscription could be fine, but by using that margin to R&D the next model, the org may still be intentionally unprofitable. It’s their investment/growth strategy, not an indictment of their pricing strategy.
    • croesan hour ago
      But why does it matter which program you use to consume the tokens?

      The sounds like a confession that claude code is somewhat wasteful at token use.

      • airstrikean hour ago
        No, it's a confession they have no moat other than trying to hold onto the best model for a given use case.

        I find that competitive edge unlikely to last meaningfully in the long term, but this is still a contrarian view.

        More recently, people have started to wise up to the view that the value is in the application layer

        https://www.iconiqcapital.com/growth/reports/2026-state-of-a...

    • hannasman hour ago
      Honestly I think I am already sold on AI, who is the first company that is going to show us all how much it really costs and start enshitification? First to market wins right?
  • archeantus2 hours ago
    Not according to this guy who works on Claude Code: https://x.com/trq212/status/2024212378402095389?s=20

    What a PR nightmare, on top of an already bad week. I’ve seen 20+ people on X complaining about this and the related confusion.

    • azuanrb2 hours ago
      No, it is prohibited. They're just updating the docs to be more clear about their position, which haven't changed. Their docs was unclear about it.
      • stingraycharlesan hour ago
        Yes, it was always prohibited, hence the OpenCode situation one or two months ago.
    • mh226631 minutes ago
      woof, does Anthropic not have a comms team and a clear comms policy for employees that aren’t on that comms team?
    • JimmaDaRustlaan hour ago
      Incorrect, the third-party usage was already blocked (banned) but it wasn't officially communicated or documented. This post is simply identifying that official communication rather than the inference of actual functionality.
  • atlgator15 minutes ago
    AI is the new high-end gym membership. They want you to pay the big fee and then not use what you paid for. We'll see more and more roadblocks to usage as time goes on.
  • ddxv2 hours ago
    The pressure is to boost revenue by forcing more people to use the API to generate huge numbers of tokens they can charge more for. LLMs are becoming common commodities as open weight models keep catching up. There are similarities with pirating in the 90s when users realize they can ctrl+c ctrl+v to copy a file/model and you don't need to buy a cd/use their paid API.
    • chii2 hours ago
      And that is how it should be - the knowledge that the LLM trained on should be free, and cannot (and should never be) gatekept behind money.

      It's merely the hardware that should be charged for - which ought to drop in price if/when the demand for it rises. However, this is a bottleneck at the moment, and hard to see how it gets resolved amidst the current US environment on sanctioning anyone who would try.

      • nucleative2 hours ago
        Is there no value in how the training was done such that it's accessible via inference in a particularly useful way?
        • chii34 minutes ago
          That value is there, but google has decided to give it away as public knowledge (ala, their transformer paper).

          And i would also argue that the researchers doing this are built on shoulders of other public knowledge - things funded by public institutions with taxpayer money.

  • ChaitanyaSai25 minutes ago
    OK I hope someone from anthropic reads this. Your API billing makes it really hard to work with it in India. We've had to switch to openrouter because anthropic keeps rejecting all the cards we have tried. And these are major Indian banks. This has been going on for MONTHS
    • woutr_be5 minutes ago
      It’s the same here in Hong Kong. I can’t use any of my cards (personal or corporate) for OpenAI or Anthropic.

      Have to do everything through Azure, which is a mess to even understand.

  • edg500018 minutes ago
    Their model actually doesn't have that much of a moat if at all. Their agent harness also doesn't, at least not for long. Writing an agent harness isn't that difficult. They are desperately trying to stay in power. I don´t like being a customer of this company and am investing lots of my time in moving away from them completely.
    • avaer14 minutes ago
      They are obviously losing money on these plans, just like all of the other companies in the space.

      They are all desperately trying to stay in power, and this policy change (or clarification) is a fart in the wind in the grand scheme of what's going on in this industry.

  • vicchenai2 hours ago
    The economic tension here is pretty clear: flat-rate subscriptions are loss leaders designed to hook developers into the ecosystem. Once third parties can piggyback on that flat rate, you get arbitrage - someone builds a wrapper that burns through $200/month worth of inference for $20/month of subscription cost, and Anthropic eats the difference.

    What is interesting is that OpenAI and GitHub seem to be taking the opposite approach with Copilot/OpenCode, essentially treating third-party tool access as a feature that increases subscription stickiness. Different bets on whether the LTV of a retained subscriber outweighs the marginal inference cost.

    Would not be surprised if this converges eventually. Either Anthropic opens up once their margins improve, or OpenAI tightens once they realize the arbitrage is too expensive at scale.

    • sambull2 hours ago
      these subscriptions have limits.. how could someone use $200 worth on $20/month.. is that not the issue with the limits they set on a $20 plan, and couldn't a claude code user use that same $200 worth on $20/month? (and how do i do this?)
      • somenameformean hour ago
        I'd agree on this. I ended up picking up a Claude Pro sub and am very less than impressed at the volume allowance. I generally get about a dozen queries (including simple follow up/refinements/corrections) across a relatively small codebase, with prompts structured to minimize the parts of the code touched - and moving onto fresh contexts fairly rapidly, before getting cut off for their ~5 hour window. Doing that ~twice a day ends up getting cut off on the weekly limit with about a day or two left on it.

        I don't entirely mind, and am just considering it an even better work:life balance, but if this is $200 worth of queries, then all I can say is LOL.

      • ac29an hour ago
        The usage limit on your $20/month subscription is not $20 of API tokens (if it was, why subscribe?). Its much much higher, and you can hit the equivalent of $20 of API usage in a few days.
        • scwoodalan hour ago
          So I’m not allowed to use the $20 plan and max out its limits?
          • alexandre_m13 minutes ago
            Max out on their terms, not yours.

            Their bet is that most people will not fill up 100% of their weekly usage for 4 consecutive weeks of their monthly plan, because they are humans and the limits impede long running tasks during working hours.

          • ac2916 minutes ago
            You can max it out via first party clients only.

            I dont like it either, but its not an unreasonable restriction.

  • saganus2 hours ago
    Thariq has clarified that there are no changes to how SDK and max suscriptions work:

    https://x.com/i/status/2024212378402095389

    ---

    On a different note, it's surprising that a company that size has to clarify something as important as ToS via X

    • tick_tock_tick2 hours ago
      > On a different note, it's surprising that a company that size has to clarify something as important as ToS via X

      Countries clarify nation policy on X. Seriously it feels like half of the EU parliament live on twitter.

    • adastra222 hours ago
      FYI a Twitter post that contradicts the ToS is NOT a clarification.
    • 2 hours ago
      undefined
    • sawjet2 hours ago
      What's wrong with using X?
      • minimaxir2 hours ago
        In the case you are asking in good faith, a) X requires logging in to view most of its content, which means that much of your audience will not see the news because b) much of your audience is not on X, either due to not having social media or have stopped using X due to its degradation to put it generally.
        • raincolean hour ago
          I'm not signed in but I can view the above linked tweet just fine.

          Plus it's not a real clarification in anyway. It's just PR. Even if it's posted on Mastodon or Github or anywhere, I highly doubt you can use it to defend yourself if you get banned from violating their ToS.

          • croesan hour ago
            You can’t view answers and the tweet threat. You need to know every single tweet. You can’t open the politician‘s feed so you have to know that there is a tweet and which it is to get information.
        • hedora2 hours ago
          c) it is controlled by a direct competitor and can bury / promote your customer communication at will.
          • minimaxiran hour ago
            Elon has enough sense not to cross that particular bridge.
            • dpkirchner23 minutes ago
              He was quick to ban links to Mastodon when it was on the rise, I'm not sure why he'd treat SpaceX/xAI competitors any differently.
      • saganus2 hours ago
        Not bad per se but how much legal weight does it actually carry?

        I presume zero.. but nonetheless seems like people will take it as valid anyway.

        That can be dangerous I think.

  • theahura3 hours ago
    From the legal docs:

    > Authentication and credential use

    > Claude Code authenticates with Anthropic’s servers using OAuth tokens or API keys. These authentication methods serve different purposes:

    > OAuth authentication (used with Free, Pro, and Max plans) is intended exclusively for Claude Code and Claude.ai. Using OAuth tokens obtained through Claude Free, Pro, or Max accounts in any other product, tool, or service — including the Agent SDK — is not permitted and constitutes a violation of the Consumer Terms of Service.

    > Developers building products or services that interact with Claude’s capabilities, including those using the Agent SDK, should use API key authentication through Claude Console or a supported cloud provider. Anthropic does not permit third-party developers to offer Claude.ai login or to route requests through Free, Pro, or Max plan credentials on behalf of their users.

    > Anthropic reserves the right to take measures to enforce these restrictions and may do so without prior notice.

    • spullara2 hours ago
      why wouldn't they just make it so the SDK can't use claude subs? like what are they doing here?
      • adastra222 hours ago
        When your company happens upon a cash cow, you can either become a milk company or a meat company.
  • jes51992 hours ago
    there’s a million small scale AI apps that just aren’t worth building because there’s no way to do the billing that makes sense. If anthropic wanted to own that market, they could introduce a bring-your-own-Claude metaphor, where you login with Claude and token costs get billed to your personal account (after some reasonable monthly freebies from your subscription).

    But the big guys don’t seem interested in this, maybe some lesser known model will carve out this space

    • avaer7 minutes ago
      This is going to happen. Unfortunately.

      I shudder to think what the industry will look like if software development and delivery becomes like Youtubing, where the whole stack and monetization is funneled through a single company (or a couple) get to decide who gets how much money.

    • MillionOClockan hour ago
      I am a bit worried that this is the situation I am in with my (unpublished) commercial app right now: one of the major pain points I have is that while I have no doubt the app provides value in itself, I am worried about how many potential users will actually accept paying inference per token...

      As an independent dev I also unfortunately don't have investors backing me to subsidize inference for my subscription plan.

      • Imustaskforhelp8 minutes ago
        I recommend kimi. It's possible for people to haggle with it to get cheap for the first month and as such try out your project and best part of the matter is that kimi intentionally supports api usage in any of their subscribed plan and they also recently changed their billing to be more token usage based like others instead of their previous tool calling limits

        It's seriously one of the best models. very comparable to sonnet/opus although kimi isn't the best in coding. I think its a really great solid model overall and might just be worth it in your use case?

        Is the use case extremely coding intensive related (where even some minor improvement can matter for 10-100x cost) or just in general. Because if not, then I can recommend Kimi.

    • herbturboan hour ago
      >> there’s a million small scale AI apps that just aren’t worth building because there’s no way to do the billing that makes sense

      Maybe they are not worth building at all then. Like MoviePass wasn’t.

  • tiffanyh2 hours ago
    In enterprise software, this is an embedded/OEM use case.

    And historically, embedded/OEM use cases always have different pricing models for a variety of reasons why.

    How is this any different than this long established practice?

    • ziml772 hours ago
      It's not, but do you really think the people having Claude build wrappers around Claude were ever aware of how services like this are typically offered.
  • solresol2 hours ago
    I got banned for violating terms of use apparently, but I'm mystified as to what I rule I broke, and appealing just vanishes into the ether.
  • lsaferite41 minutes ago
    That page is... confusing.

    > Advertised usage limits for Pro and Max plans assume ordinary, individual usage of Claude Code and the Agent SDK.

    This is literally the last sentence of the paragraph before the "Authentication and credential use"

  • sanexan hour ago
    Going to keep using the agents sdk with my pro subscription until I get banned. It's not openclaw it's my own project. It started by just proxying requests to claude code though the command line, the sdk just made it easier. Not sure what difference it makes to them if I have a cron job to send Claude code requests or an agent sdk request. Maybe if it's just me and my toy they don't care. We'll see how the clarify tomorrow.
  • theptip2 hours ago
    I think this is shortsighted.

    The markets value recurring subscription revenue at something like 10x “one-off” revenue, Anthropic is leaving a lot of enterprise value on the table with this approach.

    In practice this approach forces AI apps to pay Anthropic for tokens, and then bill their customers a subscription. Customers could bring their own API key but it’s sketchy to put that into every app you want to try, and consumers aren’t going to use developer tools. And many categories of free app are simply excluded, which could in aggregate drive a lot more demand for subscriptions.

    If Anthropic is worried about quota, seems they could set lower caps for third-party subscription usage? Still better than forcing API keys.

    (Maybe this is purely about displacing other IDE products, rather than a broader market play.)

    • herbturboan hour ago
      I think they are smart making a distinction between a D2C subscription which they control the interface to and eat the losses for vs B2B use where they pay for what they use.

      Allows them to optimize their clients and use private APIs for exclusive features etc. and there’s really no reason to bootstrap other wannabe AI companies who just stick a facade experience in front of Anthropic’s paying customer.

      • edg500014 minutes ago
        > eat the losses

        Look at your token usage of the last 30 days in one of the JSON files generated by Claude Code. Compare that against API costs for Opus. Tell me if they are eating losses or not. I'm not making a point, actually do it and let me know. I was at 1 million. I'm paying 90 EUR/m. That means I'm subsidizing them (paying 3-4 times what it would cost with the API)! And I feel like I'm a pretty heavy user. Although people running it in a loop or using Gas Town will be using much more.

    • bluegatty2 hours ago
      There's no decision to be made here, it's just way too expensive to have 3rd parties soak up the excess tokens, that's not the product being sold.

      Especially as they are subsidized.

    • techpression33 minutes ago
      That’s not true, the market loves pay per use, see ”cloud”. It outperforms subscriptions by a lot, it’s not ”one-off”. And your example is not how companies building on top tend to charge, you either have your own infrastructure (key) or get charged at-cost + fees and service costs.

      I don’t think Anthropic has any desire to be some B2C platform, they want high paying reliable customers (B2B, Enterprise).

  • 8cvor6j844qw_d6an hour ago
    Not surprised, its the official stance by Anthropic.

    I'm more surprised by people using subscription auth for OpenClaw when its officially not allowed.

  • oger7 minutes ago
    So here goes my OpenClaw integration with Anthropic via OAuth… While I see their business risk I also see the onboarding path for new paying customers. I just upgraded to Max and would even consider the API if cost were controllable. I hope that Anthropic finds a smart way to communicate with customers in a constructive way and offers advice for the not so skilled OpenClaw homelabbers instead of terminating their accounts… Is anybody here from Anthropic that could pick up that message before a PR nightmare happens?
  • vldsznan hour ago
    At this point, are there decent alternatives to Anthropic models for coding that allow third-party usage?
    • Imustaskforhelp5 minutes ago
      Kimi is amazing for this. They offer API usage as well iirc if you buy their subscription.
    • syntaxingan hour ago
      OpenAI have been very generous in their plans in terms of token and what you use it with. Is Codex better or as good as Opus for coding? No. Is it a decent alternative? Very.
  • scwoodal2 hours ago
    Why does it matter to Anthropic if my $200 plan usage is coming from Claude Code or a third party?

    Doesn’t both count towards my usage limits the same?

    • bluegatty2 hours ago
      If you buy a 'Season's Pass' for Disneyland, you cant 'sublet' it to another kid to use on the days you don't; It's not really buying a 'daily access rate'.

      Anthropic subs are not 'bulk tokens'.

      It's not an unreasonable policy and it's entirely inevitable that they have to restrict.

      • scwoodalan hour ago
        I’m not subletting my sub to anyone. I’m the only one using the third party harness.

        I’m using their own SDK in my own CLI tool.

        • Unearned5161an hour ago
          It’s not a literal sublet to someone else, it’s subletting your tokens to another tool.

          At its core it’s a tragedy of commons situation. Using a third party tool like OpenClaw is augmenting your usage far beyond what was anticipated when the subscription plan was made.

          Same deal for unlimited storage on drive until people started abusing it.

          • scwoodalan hour ago
            My Claude sub isn’t unlimited.

            I didn’t set the limits on the plan; change those if it’s a problem, not irritate your customer base.

      • croesan hour ago
        It’s still me going to Disneyland, I just take a different route
      • JimmaDaRustlaan hour ago
        Disingenuous analogy.

        It's more buying a season pass for Disneyland, then getting told you can't park for free if you're entering the park even though free parking is included with the pass. Still not unreasonable, but brings to light the intention of the tool is to force the user into an ecosystem rather.

        • bluegattyan hour ago
          It's not a disingenuous analogy ... whatever it is.

          But 'you can't park even though the ticket includes parking' is not an appropriate analogy because 3rd party use is definitely not intended. They did not 'state one thing' and the 'disallow it'.

          This is a pretty straight forward case of people using their subscription for 'adjacent' use, and Anthropic being more explicit about it.

          There's nothing fancy going on here.

    • minimaxir2 hours ago
      Any user who is using a third-party client is likely self-selected into being a power user who is less profitable.
    • digdugdirk2 hours ago
      They don't get as much visibility into your data, just the actual call to/from the api. There's so much more value to them in that, since you're basically running the reinforcement learning training for them.
    • hackingonemptyan hour ago
      Increasing the friction of switching providers as much as possible is part of their strategy to push users to higher subscription tiers and deny even scraps to their competitors.
    • operatingthetan2 hours ago
      Probably because the $20 plan is essentially a paid demo for the higher plans.
    • zb3an hour ago
      They're losing money on this $200 plan and they're essentially paying you to make you dependent on Claude Code so they can exploit this (somehow) in the future.
      • psoundy37 minutes ago
        When using Claude Code, it's possible to opt out of having one's sessions be used for training. But is that opt out for everything? Or only message content, such that there could remain sufficient metadata to derive useful insight from?
      • esafakan hour ago
        It's a bizarre plan because nobody is 'dependent' on Claude Code; we're begging to use alternatives. It's the model we want!
        • alexandre_m22 minutes ago
          You’re not really paying for the model, you’re paying for the tool, the ecosystem, and the application layer around it.

          Sonnet 4.6 in CC doesn’t behave the same way as Sonnet 4.6 in Antigravity.

  • akulbe2 hours ago
    Is this a direct shot at things like OpenClaw, or am I reading it wrong?
    • mapontosevenths2 hours ago
      Opencode as well. Folks have been getting banned for abusing the OAuth login method to get around paying for API tokens or whatever. Anthropic seems to prefer people pay them.
      • serf2 hours ago
        its not that innocent.

        a 200 dollar a month customer isn't trying to get around paying for tokens, theyre trying to use the tooling they prefer. opencode is better in a lot of ways.

        tokens get counted and put against usage limits anyway, unless theyre trying to eat analytics that are CC exclusive they should allow paying customers to consume to the usage limits in however way they want to use the models.

        • mapontosevenths2 hours ago
          > they should allow paying customers to consume to the usage limits in however way they want to use the models.

          I think I agree, but it's their business to run however they like. They have competition if we don't like it.

        • fastball2 hours ago
          A $200/m max subscriber using OpenCode and not wanting to use API keys with pay-per-token pricing is very clearly trying to get around paying for tokens.
          • sambull2 hours ago
            Is there any limits to that users 200/month? Why should they not be able to use the limits to the extent from other tools?

            If openclaw chews my 200/month up in 15 days... I don't get more requests for free

    • baconner2 hours ago
      For sure, yes. They already added attempts to block opencode, etc.
  • 2 hours ago
    undefined
  • slopinthebag2 hours ago
    how can they even enforce this? can't you just spoof all your network requests to appear like it's coming from claude code?

    in any case Codex is a better SOTA anyways and they let you do this. and if you aren't interested in the best models, Mistral lets you use both Vibe and their API through your vibe subscription api key which is incredible.

    • Uehreka2 hours ago
      > how can they even enforce this?

      Many ways, and they’re under no obligation to play fair and tell you which way they’re using at any given time. They’ve said what the rules are, they’ve said they’ll ban you if they catch you.

      So let’s say they enforce it by adding an extra nonstandard challenge-response handshake at the beginning of the exchange, which generates a token which they’ll expect on all requests going forward. You decompile the minified JS code, figure out the protocol, try it from your own code but accidentally mess up a small detail (you didn’t realize the nonce has a special suffix). Detected. Banned.

      You’ll need a new credit card to open a new account and try again. Better get the protocol right on the first try this time, because debugging is going to get expensive.

      Let’s say you get frustrated and post on Twitter about what you know so far. If you share info, they’ll probably see it eventually and change their method. They’ll probably change it once a month anyway and see who they catch that way (and presumably add a minimum Claude Code version needed to reach their servers).

      They’ve got hundreds of super smart coders and one of the most powerful AI models, they can do this all day.

      • slopinthebag2 hours ago
        the internet has hundreds of thousands of super smart coders with the most powerful ai models as well, I think it's a bit harder than you're assuming.

        you just need to inspect the network traffic with Claude code and mimic that

        • Uehreka42 minutes ago
          OK sure, but you’d better hope Claude Code gets it right on the first try, or that’s $200 down the drain. Also, what if the detection mechanism involves a challenge-response that happens once a week? Or randomly a couple times a month? Or after 15 minutes of use from a new public IP? Or arbitrarily if you ask it to code something with a particular topic?

          There are lots of ways they could be doing this. And remember again, if they get you, they don’t have to tell you how they got you (so you might not be able to even glean information in return for the $200 you’d be losing).

          Sure the internet has hundreds of thousands of super smart coders, but the subset who are willing to throw money and credit cards down the drain in order to maintain a circumvention strategy for something like this is pretty low. I’m sure a few people will figure it out, but they won’t want to tell anyone lest Anthropic nerf their workaround, so I doubt that exploits of this will become widespread.

          And if you’re Anthropic, that’s probably good enough.

          • johnfn5 minutes ago
            Then just run Claude Code in a PTY and proxy requests in and out?
        • raincolean hour ago
          If your service's traffic is literally indistinguishable from Claude Code, then all it can do is what Claude Code does. Then why are the users going to choose your service instead of Claude Code?
          • slopinthebagan hour ago
            Maybe because the UI doesn't flicker? There's a lot you can do to improve the UI for starters, and then the harness around the agent could also be improved upon, as long as the prompts are the same.
      • stangucan hour ago
        easily "bypassable", trust me :)
    • paxys2 hours ago
      Pretty easy to enforce it - rather than make raw queries to the LLM Claude Code can proxy through Anthropic's servers. The server can then enforce query patterns, system prompts and other stuff that outside apps cannot override.
    • cjpartridge2 hours ago
      And once all the Claude subscribers move over to Codex subscriptions, I'd bet a large sum that OpenAI will make their own ToS update preventing automated/scripted usage.
    • baconner2 hours ago
      They can't catch everything but they can make your product you're building on top of it non viable when it gets popular enough to look for, like they did with opencode.
      • slopinthebag2 hours ago
        at least with open code you can just use a third party plugin to authenticate
    • 2 hours ago
      undefined
    • tbrownaw2 hours ago
      > how can they even enforce this?

      I would think that different tools would probably have different templates for their prompts?

    • techpression30 minutes ago
      We don’t enforce speed limits, but it sucks when you get caught.

      OpenAI will adjust, their investors will not allow money to be lost on ”being nice” forever, not until they’re handsomely paid back at least.

    • charcircuit2 hours ago
      You could tell by the prompt being used.
  • Rapzid2 hours ago
    Their moat is evaporating before our eyes. Anthropic is Microsoft's side piece, but Microsoft is married with kids to OpenAI.

    And OpenAI just told Microsoft why they shouldn't be seeing Anthropic anymore; Gpt-5.3-codex.

    RIP Anthropic.

  • mccoyb2 hours ago
    OpenAI has endorsed OAuth from 3rd party harnesses, and their limits are way higher. Use better tools (OpenCode, pi) with an arguably better model (xhigh reasoning) for longer …
    • wyrean hour ago
      I am looking forward to switching to OpenAI once my claude max account is banned for using pi....
  • adastra222 hours ago
    What is the point of developing against the Agent SDK after this change.
  • TechSquidTVan hour ago
    My alt Google accounts were all banned from Gemini access. Luckily Google left my main account alone. They are all cracking down.
  • drivebyhooting2 hours ago
    How does this impact open router?

    Can’t this restriction for the time being be bypassed via -p command line flag?

    • minimaxir2 hours ago
      OpenRouter uses the API and does not use any subscription auth.
  • aydyn2 hours ago
    Sonnet literally just recommended using a subscription token for openclaw. Even anthropic's own AI doesn't understand its own TOS.
    • minimaxir2 hours ago
      Sonnet was not trained with this information and extremely-recent-information-without-access-to-a-Web-Search-tool is the core case of hallucination.
  • hedora2 hours ago
    Oh crap. I just logged into HN to ask if anyone knew of a working alternative to the Claude Code client. It's lost Claude's work multiple times in the last few days, and I'm ready to switch to a different provider. (4.6 is mildly better than 4.5, but the TUI is a deal breaker.)

    So, I guess it's time to look into OpenAI Codex. Any other viable options? I have a 128GB iGPU, so maybe a local model would work for some tasks?

    • simpleusername2 hours ago
      QWEN models are quite nice for local use. Gemini 3 Pro is much better than Codex IMO.
  • zb3an hour ago
    This confirms they're selling those subscriptions at a loss which is simply not sustainable.
    • Gigachadan hour ago
      They probably are but I don’t think that’s what this confirms. Most consumer flat rate priced services restrict usage outside of the first party apps, because 3rd party and scripted users can generate orders of magnitude more usage than a single user using the app can.

      So it makes sense to offer simple flat pricing for first party apps, and usage priced apis for other usage. It’s like the difference between Google Drive and S3.

      • zb3an hour ago
        I get your point - they might count on the user not using their full quota they're officially allowed to use (and if that's the case, Anthropic is not losing money). But then still - IF the user used the whole quota, Anthropic loses.. so what's advertised is not actually honest.

        For me, flat rates are simply unfair either ways - if I'm not using the product much, I'm overpaying (and they're ok with that), otherwise it magically turns out that it's no longer ok when I actually want to utilize what I paid for :)

        • Gigachad16 minutes ago
          At any rate, they offer the option to be billed exactly on your usage via the API. But if you tell the average person the service costs $x/million tokens they will have no idea how much that actually costs, they won't know what a token is or how much their employees are likely to use. While $30/user/month is something they can easily budget for and get approved.
  • vcryan2 hours ago
    You can use Claude CLI as a relay - yes, it needs to be there -but its not that different than use the API
  • sandeepkd2 hours ago
    Not really sure if its even feasible to enforce it unless the idea is to discourage the big players from doing it.
  • j452 hours ago
    That's too bad, in a way it was a bit of an unofficial app store for Anthropic - I am sure they've probably looked at that and hopefully this means there's something on it's way.
  • anvevoicean hour ago
    [dead]
  • exabrial2 hours ago
    The number one thing we need is cheap abundant decentralized clean energy, and these things are laughable.

    Unfortunately neither political party can get all of the above.

    • minimaxir2 hours ago
      Are you implying that no one would use LLM SaaSes and everyone would self-host if energy costs were negligible?

      That is...not how it works. People self-hosting don't look at their electricity bill.

      • hedoraan hour ago
        I was stuck on the part where they said neither party could provide cheap abundant decentralized clean energy. Biden / Obama did a great job of providing those things, to the point where dirty coal and natural gas are both more expensive than solar or wind.

        So, which two parties could they be referring to? The Republicans and the Freedom Caucus?

        • exabrialan hour ago
          Bro… re read your comment.
  • mkw50532 hours ago
    And I just bought my mac mini this morning... Sorry everyone
    • eleventyseven2 hours ago
      You know that if you are just using a cloud service and not running local models, you could have just bought a raspberry pi.
      • mkw50532 hours ago
        Yeah. I know it’s dumb but it’s also a very expensive machine to run BlueBubbles, because iMessage requires a real Mac signed into an Apple ID, and I want a persistent macOS automation host with native Messages, AppleScript, and direct access to my local dev environment, not just a headless Linux box calling APIs.
        • hedoraan hour ago
          My M2 macbook pro runs qwen fine, and so will any mac mini with maxed out ram.
          • mkw5053an hour ago
            The only immediately available was the base 16GB version
      • an hour ago
        undefined
      • renewiltord2 hours ago
        Harder to get at the Apple ecosystem. I have an old Macbook that just serves my reminders over the internet.
        • beoberha2 hours ago
          who knows when Apple decides to enter the game, but they will absolutely crush the personal agent market when they do.
          • hedoraan hour ago
            Apple has been doing personal agents for a while. They're crushing it so hard they must be tired of winning at this point.

            For instance, the other day, the Siri button in maps told me it couldn't start navigation because it didn't know where it was. It was animating a blue dot with my real time position at the same time.

            Don't get me started about the new iOS 26 notification and messaging filters. Those are causing real harm multiple times a day.