55 pointsby only-one17014 hours ago12 comments
  • quacked3 hours ago
    The two American political parties are so perfectly shielded by their own ideological blinders to avoid any possibility of national protectionism against offshoring and outsourcing that I don't think there will ever be any kind of movement against this.

    The conservative base is unfriendly to foreigners and foreign cultures, and claims to prefer American-made goods and services, but will immediately guillotine any internal party member who causes consumer prices to raise substantially--which they would have to do in order to support American workers creating products rather than our offshored counterparts. And the business owners and shareholders who love to outsource generally aren't true blue voters.

    The liberal base is in theory pro-union and pro-worker, but will immediately guillotine any internal party member who suggests economic discrimination in favor of native-born industries and workers.

    • stronglikedan3 hours ago
      In my opinion, it's because the two party divide has reached the point of extremism on both sides, and extremists act on emotion rather than logic or reason. Up until a couple of decades ago, they both did a good job of keeping their more extreme members out of sight and mind. Now they're embracing and amplifying them.
      • gorbachev3 hours ago
        It's not extremism. It's plain old American capitalism.

        Both parties are being funded by the same people, so both parties play ball with the same set of funders.

        • dakolli2 hours ago
          Its very obvious, imo they are going to have a hard time signing young men up to fight for this country when they inevitably make everyone so poor they beg anything, even a war.

          But...

          They'll use profits and greed to alienate the working class further and further, they'll try to get us to go fight wars to capture resources for the KKKapital owners. My prediction is the only war the American people will be willing to sign up to fight, is against those same KKKapital owners.

          Probably explains why they love bunkers so much, for the case where this whole experiment backfires on them.

          • _DeadFred_2 minutes ago
            “If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” ― Ulysses S. Grant
    • epolanski3 hours ago
      I really find the state of American (but not only) politics dreadful where everything is seen under the lenses of conservatives vs liberals.

      Most people I know, everywhere in the world have mixed views on most topics.

      Let alone the fact that ideologies tend to change, modern rights are way more populist and economically-socialist than they were 2 decades ago. See Poland, Hungary, Italy, etc, where governments make money fall on the poorest, on the elderly, etc ignoring their historical electorate (middle class).

      • quacked3 hours ago
        I agree, but the fact of the matter is that for voting purposes there are two "teams" in the US, and they vote and argue in public down pretty well-defined ideological lines. If you know the two or three most strongly-held moral-political beliefs of an American, it's highly likely that you can guess another 150 sociopolitical beliefs they at least profess to hold to their friends.
      • functionmouse3 hours ago
        You must understand, we're only allowed to vote for good cop or bad cop over here.
        • apercuan hour ago
          Bad cop and much much much worse cop. And somehow the latter got elected.
      • refulgentis3 hours ago
        People one-on-one have heterodox views, no one likes to think they just take it all wholesale from some amorphous ideology without a leader.

        If I could filter "conservatives are X and liberals are Y and it makes no sense" type thought, I would, because it's a driver of this impression.

    • yongjik2 hours ago
      Protectionism may work in some cases, but even when it works, it works by making things more expensive. People don't buy American cars because it's cheaper to make similar cars in Mexico. Fine, so let's force companies to make cars in America. It's now more expensive (otherwise we won't be importing from Mexico in the first place).

      You add more and more protectionism, it may get some jobs back, but the price is that things get more and more expensive. And not by a few percent, more like by 50% or more. (Just think of how much money an American worker needs to have an ordinary middle-class life compared to a Mexican worker.)

      Now consider how much people were angry over the Covid-era inflation and how it was a major factor in Trump coming back (and looks like it's going to be a major factor in Republicans losing the mid-term election this year). Nobody wants prices to go up. Americans say they want protectionism but what they want is a fairy tale protectionism where jobs comes back but prices magically stay stable. It cannot happen, and if the choice is between some other group of Americans in Michigan getting better jobs and you getting your SUV at a "reasonable" price, people will choose the latter. (I'm not digging at Americans - the same is going to happen everywhere.)

      It's basically "It's extremely hard to defeat capitalism at its own game." Nobody likes capitalism, but that doesn't mean you'll get popular by defying capitalism.

      • quacked43 minutes ago
        Well, of course, I agree with you. That's why I said I don't think it would happen.

        I personally wouldn't mind a world where consumer goods were much, much more expensive and difficult to acquire, even though it would mean that my life would feel harder and less wealthy than it does now.

        What I don't understand is whether or not there's any path to take besides watching the country gently sail along the sunset path into oblivion. Is that it? We gave away the keys to the country's wealth generation mechanism, and now we're at the mercy of the global economy to do whatever it wants? I don't want to compete with foreign firms who can hire foreign labor to compete with me and sell on my territory, but do I simply have no choice?

      • jerkstatean hour ago
        I think you need to look at the data before making assertions like this.

        > People don't buy American cars

        53% of cars sold in the US are assembled in the US versus 18% assembled in Mexico.

        > things get more and more expensive. And not by a few percent, more like by 50% or more.

        The total cost of manufacturing wages only account for 5-15% of the MSRP of a vehicle. So moving manufacturing from an expensive country to a cheap country only changes the price by maybe 10% due to the impact of wages.

      • eigenman38 minutes ago
        Things may get more expensive, but if more Americans can live a middle class life even accounting for the inflation of consumer goods I think that is a good tradeoff.
      • xyzzy123an hour ago
        I think all of your points are valid and I can't really see any part if your argument that isn't at least directionally correct. But then I'm left wondering:

        Why is protectionism working for China?

    • gamblor9562 hours ago
      liberal base is in theory pro-union and pro-worker, but will immediately guillotine any internal party member who suggests economic discrimination in favor of native-born industries and workers.

      Well, yes, because discrimination on the basis of where someone was born is illegal. The American liberal base is, and has always been, fine with economic discrimination in favor of those in America (without regard to where they were born or their residency status).

      • happytoexplainan hour ago
        There is a stereotype that conservatives are "less fine" with outsourcing than liberals. I'm not saying it's strictly true, but it's a very strongly embedded stereotype if it's not true.

        Also, you're resigning the biggest part of the conversation (immigration and residency policy and enforcement, especially with regards to employment) to an implication in a parenthetical?

    • lenerdenator3 hours ago
      > The conservative base is unfriendly to foreigners and foreign cultures, and claims to prefer American-made goods and services, but will immediately guillotine any internal party member who causes consumer prices to raise substantially--which they would have to do in order to support American workers creating products rather than our offshored counterparts.

      Currently, the head of the party is raising and lowering tariffs at will, so I don't quite think this holds anymore.

      • apawloski2 hours ago
        Agree. It is harder to manufacture in America when the party leader breaks critical parts of your supply chain with rapid and unpredictable tariff changes. It is impossible to lower consumer prices on a good by raising taxes on it.

        This is not even mentioning the astounding corruption of a president and his family personally and directly benefiting from these tariffs threats.

        Does the party not understand the realities of this? Do they understand and are just lying about it because they're afraid of the leader? Afraid of admitting that they're wrong? I believe people are usually rational but I do not understand a rationalization where choosing to harm American manufacturers and consumers on the whims of a visibly corrupt leader is good, actually.

      • wat100003 hours ago
        He is able to do so only to the extent that he can convince them that prices aren't rising, or he's not causing it.
        • lenerdenator3 hours ago
          He's able to do that.
          • wat100003 hours ago
            For now. It remains to be seen how long it will last.
    • rayiner3 hours ago
      Excellent analysis.
    • 3 hours ago
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  • llmslave3 hours ago
    I worked there a long time ago. Indian VPs were taking kickbacks from consulting firms to hire their devs, it was an open secret. Whole divisions of the company are 95% Indian.

    I wont expose the group here, but there's a broad network of technology directors from Amex, that have all been hiring and promoting eachother for 20 years. Very tight nit networks of nepotism, in some cases, brother and sister working together

    All that really matters is the Amex brand, and so all the tech was considered back office, and unimportant.

    Also, once a company enters some kind of monopoly status, very little matters in the quality of their product.

    • bagacrapan hour ago
      Amex has less than 10% worldwide market share and is a distant 4th behimd unionpay, visa, mc. I don't see the monopoly here.

      I have to say I was relieved when my Amex card issuer switched to visa because owning an Amex is a pita. I think they build their business on various rewards programs, the brand itself is garbage in my eyes.

    • jst1fthsdys7 minutes ago
      [dead]
  • lanstin3 hours ago
    If this was about a useful part of the economy rather than financialized credit access, I would care. Paying 10x to US residents to provide a better Amex experience really doesn’t incentivize anything that is long term useful. Now when materials scientists and skilled scientific technicians are fired from US based jobs, well that is a problem. The economy in the US has fallen prey to the demands of irreality based capital which is seeking, not profit, not good products and healthy trade, but seeking to extract capital and to erect legislative barriers to Adam Smith style competition (between innovative small businesses striving to find an innovative way to push product utility up a bit). If you can’t brag about the good your job is doing for people, life, or history, try again.
    • bagacrapan hour ago
      Credit cards alter the power dynamic between customer and merchant, especially in a world where so much commerce is remote. I appreciate protection against fraudulent merchant activity, as well as the ease of use relative to alternatives (who likes carrying cash or a checkbook?). Not having to pay for a month is nice but not the reason I use credit cards.
  • givemeethekeys3 hours ago
    Let this be a lesson. If you're dumb enough to say "how high?" when they ask you to jump, you will always get steamrolled. Always!

    This poor fellow talks about what happened to him as if it's something new. This form of outsourcing has been exploited ever since the internet became fast enough!

    If anything, it's possible that AI will result in all those Indian offices being shut down.

    Don't work harder than your boss. Find a leader who is worth following.

  • democracy2 hours ago
    Is amex still alive? The worst company I dealt with - both professionally for data integration and personally took me a year to make them fix their own mistakes and close my accounts.
  • josefritzishere2 hours ago
    Outside of corporate cards I've never seen an AMEX in the real world.
    • missedthecuean hour ago
      Are you in Europe or something? It's the most popular credit card among Gen Z and Millennials. 1% of US GDP goes through Delta co-branded Amex cards.
      • bagacrapan hour ago
        US data, total transactions:

        Visa: $3 trillion, 52% Mastercard: $1.4 trillion, 24% American Express: $1.1 trillion, 19% Discover: 0.3$ trillion, 5%

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  • OutOfHere3 hours ago
    Between AI and outsourcing, desk jobs in the US can risk disappearing altogether. Do not count on them, and do not expect you to be owed anything. Go in every day knowing that day can be your last day there, and you will be at peace. Find your own alternate paths.
    • cmxchan hour ago
      Can’t offshore cleared government work.
  • functionmouse4 hours ago
    It seems our enemies are making a mistake.
  • spwa43 hours ago
    That pretty much describes Indian work culture/ethic. Let's say "aggressive" work hours, and you just let your manager claim whatever he wants and agree with it, against everyone. "Yes", "Yes, sir".

    And then, yeah, when the time comes that the work needs to be delivered, odds of it actually being done, let's say 50/50 at best.

    Does your manager even want to know the truth? Mine does, but that's only the case because I changed managers 4 times before I found one that I can reasonably believe tells the truth to his superiors.

  • throwaway9201023 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • OutOfHere3 hours ago
      There is racism all around in America -- every race effectively has some bias to hire its own. To some limited extent they don't.

      The way I think about it is that if they don't want to hire me, it means I am not offering them enough value to bypass any bias.

    • 3 hours ago
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  • epolanski3 hours ago
    That's how capitalism works, eventually everything gets moved where it's more efficient.

    Obviously, time and time again has proven that outsourcing is not always more efficient.

    • recursivedoubts3 hours ago
      So then that's not how capitalism works, is it?
      • democracy2 hours ago
        It's not math, it's pressure down the chain of command - you had to be outsourcing or at least trying to. Same as now - you have to be trying to "AI" and report improvements as this is what everyone wants to hear.
      • epolanski3 hours ago
        Why wouldn't it?
      • jen203 hours ago
        It is, if you add the word "perceived" to the original post.
      • mcphage2 hours ago
        American capitalism doesn’t worry about long timescales, beyond a year or two.