Trump's creation: A Europe that spends more on defense but can stand up to US(www.politico.eu)
7 pointsby saubeidl3 hours ago3 comments
  • andsoitis3 hours ago
    Sometimes, you resort to a stick (threats, disparagement, etc.) rather than a carrot, to get your friends to be more self-reliant and mature.

    It makes them stronger and then you can apply your energies to other matters.

    • sylware2 hours ago
      But they are kind of forced to buy US defense equipement, that to have US tatical nukes (any significant invasion army will be nuked).
    • mytailorisrich3 hours ago
      This is all a very well crafted campaign of manufacturing consent of the people in Europe to give up more sovereignty yo the EU and make the EU involved in, and controlling, defence matters. Noticr how Von Der Leyen is speaking about defence and defence strategy as a matter of course without anyone questioning it although it is a major shift that is happening. The scale of manipulation is incredible and so is how the people are swallowing it all hook, line, and sinker without a noise (the silence of the lambs takes a new dimension).
      • saubeidl2 hours ago
        Sure, the EU has crafted a campaign where JD Vance comes to Munich and tells us the US is abandoning us.

        How perfidious of them! Enlisting the US executive in their evil plans!

        The conspiratorial thinking on display here is unreal.

        • mytailorisrich2 hours ago
          It seems very clear that the EU and EU leaders had that plan for a long time but that was always a hard sell to the public (even played a part in the Brexit referendum). Ukraine and the current US administration are used tactically to sell the plan to the public.

          It is being very naive and gullible not to see that.

          Re. JD Vance, I think he actually hit the nail on the head and that's why the reactions from the EU and EU leaders were so strong to attack and discredit him.

          • saubeidl2 hours ago
            I wish we had done this 30 years ago, but EU leaders were weak cowards that had no such plans until they finally had to face reality.

            We either get torn apart between the major powers or we become a major power ourself. To deny this simple fact is suicidal and I do not wish to be pulled to ruin with you.

            • mytailorisrich2 hours ago
              Claiming that a course of action is the only way and that there is no alternative, and that opposing it is being an enemy, a traitor, or "suicidal", is an age old trick, too.

              In this case, claiming that giving up on our countries as sovereign states must happen to compete against China or the US is an obvious oxymoron and rather insane.

              • saubeidlan hour ago
                I welcome you to suggest an alternative. Just saying there is one is not enough. How do you envision, idk, Lithuania surviving between Russia and the US?

                (I would also invite you to look up the meaning of the term oxymoron, because I do not see how it even fits the sentence here.)

                • mytailorisrich30 minutes ago
                  I don't see how the US are an existential threat to Lithuania. Anyway my point is that Lithuania does not survive by committing suicide, which is what disappearing in a federal Europe is... and that's where the oxymoron and fallacy lie.
    • saubeidl3 hours ago
      The problem is, once you use a stick, they might become self-reliant, but they might not want to be your friends anymore.
      • andsoitis3 hours ago
        Possibly.

        On the other hand, it is reasonable to argue that the alternative has been tried for decades and didn't work. Moreover, since the stakes have gotten so much higher with China's ascendency, it is worth the risk.

        When you keep on giving money to a friend to help them, they never learn to stand on their own feet. It creates a dependency not of true friendship, but of subservience.

        • saubeidl2 hours ago
          It pushes your former friend to align closer with China, making it a geopolitical own goal...
          • andsoitis2 hours ago
            Risk worth taking. The EU and China have vastly different political, economic, and social orientation, so while they might align more closely on some things, I think America and the EU will always be much closer to each other.
            • saubeidl2 hours ago
              The same can be said for the EU and the US - what do they have in common in the areas you mentioned?
    • cindyllm3 hours ago
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  • geenkeuse3 hours ago
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