64 pointsby chmaynard5 hours ago4 comments
  • ChocolateGod2 hours ago
    I'd like to see Linux gain support for actual memory compression, without the need to go through zram, similar to macOS/Windows.
    • homebreweran hour ago
      zram has been "obsolete" for years, I don't know why people still reach for it. Linux supports proper memory compression in the form of zswap

      https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Zswap

      • RealStickman_18 minutes ago
        I didn't realize zswap also uses in-memory compression. It might be a combination of poor naming and zram being continuously popular.
      • ChocolateGodan hour ago
        Because I'd rather compress ram when running low on memory rather than swapping to my disks. zram is also default on some distros (e.g. Fedora).
        • homebreweran hour ago
          Did you read the link? Additional disk swap is optional, and if for some reason you would still like to have one, it's easy to disable writeback, using just the RAM.

          And even if one enables zswap and configures nothing else, compressing RAM and only swapping out to disk under extreme pressure is still the default behavior.

    • JamesTRexxan hour ago
      I use zswap, which is a non-fixed intermediate layer between RAM and swap and worked great on my old laptop which had a max of 4GB RAM. Even use it now on my current 32GB laptop.

      Full compression would be nicer, but I'd also like to see ECC emulation (or alternative) as a cheaper alternative to the real hardware, although with current prices that might be less so.

  • FooBarWidget3 hours ago
    One pet peeve I have with virtual memory management on Linux is that, as memory usage approaches 100%, the kernel starts evicting executable pages because technically they're read-only and can be loaded from disk. Thus, the entire system grinds to a halt in a behavior that looks like swapping, because every program that wants to execute instructions has to load its instructions from disk again, only to have those instruction pages be evicted again when context switching to another program. This behavior is especially counter intuitive because disabling swap does not prevent this problem. There are no convenient settings for administrators for preventing this problem.

    It's good that we have better swapping now, but I wish they'd address the above. I'd rather have programs getting OOMKilled or throwing errors before the system grinds to a halt, where I can't even ssh in and run 'ps'.

    • Rygianan hour ago
      I suffer from the same behavior, ever since I moved from Ubuntu to Debian.

      An interactive system that does not interact (terminal not reactive, can't ssh in, screen does not refresh) is broken. I don't understand why this is not a kernel bug.

      On my system, to add insult to injury, when the system does come back twenty minutes later, I get a "helpful" pop-up from the Linux Kernel saying "Memory Shortage Avoided". Which is just plain wrong. The pop-up should say "sorry, the kernel bricked your system for a solid twenty minutes for no good reason, please file a report".

    • robinsonb52 hours ago
      Indeed. I think what's really needed is some way to mark pages as "required for interactivity" so that nothing related to the user interface gets paged out, ever. That, I think, would go at least some way towards restoring the feeling of "having a computer's full attention" that we had thirty years ago.
      • direwolf208 minutes ago
        An Electron app would mark its entire 2GB as required for interactivity. If you run 4 electron apps on an 8GB system you run out of memory.
      • akdev1l2 hours ago
        Seems the applications can call mlockall() to do this
    • nolist_policy2 hours ago
      Linux swap has been fixed on Chromebooks for years thanks to MGLRU. It's upstream since Linux 6.1 and you can try it with

        echo y >/sys/kernel/mm/lru_gen/enabled
    • man8alexd2 hours ago
      Actively used executable pages are explicitly excluded from reclaim. And if they are not used, why should they stay in memory when the memory is constrained? It is not the first time I have heard complaints about executable pages, but it seems to be some kind of common misunderstanding.

      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45369516

    • 1122332 hours ago
      Is there a way to make linux kernel schedule in a "batch friendly way"? Say I do "make -j" and get 200 gcc processes diong jobserver LTO link with 2GB RSS each. In my head, optimal way through such mess is get as many processes as can fit into RAM without swapping, run them to completion, and schedule additional processes as resources become available. A depth first, "infinite latency" mode.

      Any combination of cgroups, /proc flags and other forbidden knobs to get such behaviour?

      • direwolf207 minutes ago
        It's not possible for the kernel to predict the memory needs of a process unfortunately
        • man8alexda few seconds ago
          It is possible to measure process memory utilitsation and set appropriate cgroup limits.
    • worldsavior2 hours ago
      Program instructions size is small thus loading is fast, so no need to worry about that too much. I'd look on different things first.
      • twic2 hours ago
        Have you measured this, or is this just an opinion?
        • man8alexd2 hours ago
          Look into /proc/<PID>/status and /proc/<PID>/smaps
  • dist-epochan hour ago
    Both Canonical and Microsoft recommend enabling swap file for Ubuntu cloud images, even if you allocate plenty of RAM to the VM.

    Any thoughts on that?

    • IshKebaban hour ago
      Yeah because Linux's memory management is quite poor and running out of RAM without swap will often mean a hard reboot. Swap definitely helps a lot, even if it doesn't fully solve the problem.

      To be honest I don't know why it's such an issue on Linux. Mac and Windows don't have this issue at all. Windows presumably because it doesn't over-commit memory. I'm not sure why Mac is so much better than Linux at memory management.

      My eventual solution was to just buy a PC with a ton of RAM (128 GB). Haven't had any hard reboots due to OOM since then!

      • NekkoDroida minute ago
        > To be honest I don't know why it's such an issue on Linux. Mac and Windows don't have this issue at all. Windows presumably because it doesn't over-commit memory

        To be fair, my Windows system grinds to a halt (not really, but it becomes very noticably less responsive in basically anything) when JetBrains is installing an update (mind you I only have SSDs with all JetBrains stuff being on an NVMe). I don't know what JetBrains is doing, but it consistently makes itself noticable when it is updating.

      • direwolf205 minutes ago
        My experience is different. Running out of RAM without swap will cause the most memory–hungry process to die, whereupon systemd restarts it. Running out of RAM with swap causes thrashing and you can't serve any requests or ssh logins. Someone has to press the reset button then.
  • iberator3 hours ago
    Another useless feature into Linux kernel. Who uses swap space nowadays?! Last time I used swap on Linux device was around Pentium 2 era but in reality closer to 486DX era
    • ch_1232 hours ago
      I ran Linux without swap for some years on a laptop with a large-for-the-time amount of RAM (about 8GB). It _mostly_ worked, but sudden spikes of memory usage would render the system unresponsive. Usually it would recover, but it in some cases it required a power cycle.

      Similarly, on a server where you might expect most of the physical memory to get used, it ends up being very important for stability. Think of VM or container hosts in particular.

      • GCUMstlyHarmls2 hours ago
        I dont get why anti-swap is so prevalent in Linux discussions. Like, what does it hurt to stick 8-16-32gb extra "oh fuck" space on your drive.

        Either you're going to never exhaust your system ram, so it doesn't matter, minimally exhaust it and swap in some peak load but at least nothing goes down, or exhaust it all and start having things get OOM'd which feels bad to me.

        Am I out of touch? Surely it's the children who are wrong.

        • direwolf205 minutes ago
          Swap causes thrashing, making the whole system unusable, instead of a clean OOM kill
        • manuel_w2 hours ago
          The pro-swap stance has never made sense to me because it feels like a logical loop.

          There’s a common rule of thumb that says you should have swap space equal to some multiple of your RAM.

          For instance, if I have 8 GB of RAM, people recommend adding 8 GB of swap. But since I like having plenty of memory, I install 16 GB of RAM instead—and yet, people still tell me to use swap. Why? At that point, I already have the same total memory as those with 8 GB of RAM and 8 GB of swap combined.

          Then, if I upgrade to 24 GB of RAM, the advice doesn’t change—they still insist on enabling swap. I could install an absurd amount of RAM, and people would still tell me to set up swap space.

          It seems that for some, using swap has become dogma. I just don’t see the reasoning. Memory is limited either way; whether it’s RAM or RAM + swap, the total available space is what really matters. So why insist on swap for its own sake?

          • viraptoran hour ago
            You're mashing together two groups. One claims having swap is good actually. The other claims you need N times ram for swap. They're not the same group.

            > Memory is limited either way; whether it’s RAM or RAM + swap

            For two reasons: usage spikes and actually having more usable memory. There's lots of unused pages on a typical system. You get free ram for the price of cheap storage, so why wouldn't you?

          • man8alexd2 hours ago
            This rule of thumb is outdated by two decades.

            The proper rule of thumb is to make the swap large enough to keep all inactive anonymous pages after the workload has stabilized, but not too large to cause swap thrashing and a delayed OOM kill if a fast memory leak happens.

            • tremon2 hours ago
              That's not useful as a rule of thumb, since you can't know the size of "all inactive anonymous pages" without doing extensive runtime analysis of the system under consideration. That's pretty much the opposite of what a rule of thumb is for.
              • man8alexdan hour ago
                You are right, it is not a rule of thumb, and you can't determine optimal swap size right away. But you don't need "extensive runtime analysis". Start with a small swap - a few hundred megabytes (assuming the system has GBs of RAM). Check its utilization periodically. If it is full, add a few hundred megabytes more. That's all.
                • ZoomZoomZoom13 minutes ago
                  It's not like it's easy to shuffle partitions around. Swap files are a pain, so you need to reserve space at the end of the table. By the time you need to increase swap the previous partition is going to be full.

                  Better overcommit right away and live with the feeling you're wasting space.

                  • man8alexd8 minutes ago
                    Exactly opposite. Don't use swap partitions, and use swap files, even multiple if necessary. Never allocate too much swap space. It is better to get OOM earlier then to wait for unresponsive system.
                  • direwolf204 minutes ago
                    Hast thou discovered our lord and savior LVM?
          • dspillettan hour ago
            > There’s a common rule of thumb that says you should have swap space equal to some multiple of your RAM.

            That rule came about when RAM was measured in a couple of MB rather than GB, and hasn't made sense for a long time in most circumstances (if you are paging our a few GB of stuff on spinning drives your system is likely to be stalling so hard due to disk thrashing that you hit the power switch, and on SSDs you are not-so-slowly killing them due to the excess writing).

            That doesn't mean it isn't still a good idea to have a little allocated just-in-case. And as RAM prices soar while IO throughput & latency are low, we may see larger Swap/RAM ratios being useful again as RAM sizes are constrained by working-sets aren't getting any smaller.

            In a theoretical ideal computer, which the actual designs we have are leaky-abstraction laden implementations of, things are the other way around: all the online storage is your active memory and RAM is just the first level of cache. That ideal hasn't historically ended up being what we have because the disparities in speed & latency between other online storage and RAM have been so high (several orders of magnitude), fast RAM has been volatile, and hardware & software designs or not stable & correct enough such that regular complete state resets are necessary.

            > Why? At that point, I already have the same total memory as those with 8 GB of RAM and 8 GB of swap combined.

            Because your need for fast immediate storage has increased, so 8-quick-8-slow is no longer sufficient. You are right in that this doesn't mean you need 16-quick-16-slow is sensible, and 128-quick-128-slow would be ridiculous. But no swap at all doesn't make sense either: on your machine imbued with silly amounts of RAM are you really going to miss a few GB of space allocated just-in-case? When it could be the difference between slower operation for a short while and some thing(s) getting OOM-killed?

            • man8alexd30 minutes ago
              Swap is not a replacement for RAM. It is not just slow. It is very-very-very slow. Even SSDs are 10^3 slower at random access with small 4K blocks. Swap is for allocated but unused memory. If the system tries to use swap as active memory, it is going to become unresponsive very quickly - 0.1% memory excess causes a 2x degradation, 1% - 10x degradation, 10% - 100x degradation.
          • Balinaresan hour ago
            Another factor other commenters haven't mentioned, although the article does bring it up: you may disable swap and you will still get paging behavior regardless, because in a pinch the kernel will reclaim pages that are mmapped to files. Most typically binaries and librairies. Which means the process in question will incur a map page read next time it schedules. But of course you're out of memory, so the kernel will need to page out another process's code page to make room, and when that process next schedules... Etc.

            This has far worse degradation behavior than normal swapping of regular data pages. That at least gives you the breathing space to still schedule processes when under memory pressure, such as whichever OOM killer you favor.

            • man8alexd42 minutes ago
              Binaries and libraries are not paged out. Being read-only, they are simply discarded from the memory. And I'll repeat, actively used executable pages are explicitly excluded from reclaim and never discarded.
          • t-3an hour ago
            The reason you're supposed to have swap equal in size to your RAM is so that you can hibernate, not to make things faster. You can easily get away with far less than that because swap is rarely needed.
            • dspillettan hour ago
              > so that you can hibernate

              The “paging space needs to be X*RAM” and “paging space needs to be RAM+Y” predate hibernate being a common thing (even a thing at all), with hibernate being an extra use for that paging space not the reason it is there in the first place. Some OSs have hibernate space allocated separately from paging/swap space.

            • Balinaresan hour ago
              I do wish there was a way to reserve swap spaces for hibernation that don't contribute to the virtual memory. Else by construction the hibernation space is not sufficient for the entire virtual memory space, and hibernation will fail when the virtual memory is getting full.
          • ch_1232 hours ago
            You're implying that people are telling you to set up swap without any reason, when in fact there are good reasons - namely dealing with memory pressure. Maybe you could fit so much RAM into your computer that you never hit pressure - but why would you do that vs allocating a few GB of disk space for swap?

            Also, as has been pointed out by another commenter, 8GB of swap for a system with 8GB of physical memory is overkill.

            • tremonan hour ago
              I'm also in the GP's camp; RAM is for volatile data, disk is for data persistence. The first "why would you do that" that needs to be addressed is why volatile data should be written to disk. And "it's just a few % of your disk" is not a sufficient answer to that question.
              • 112233an hour ago
                > RAM is for volatile data, disk is for data persistence.

                Genuinely curious where this idea has come from. Is it something being taught currently?

              • ch_123an hour ago
                Because of cost - particularly given the current state of the RAM market. In order to have so much memory that you never hit memory spikes, you will deliberately need to buy RAM to never be used.

                Note that simply buying more RAM than what you expect to use is not going to help. Going back to my post from earlier, I had a laptop with 8GB of RAM at a time where I would usually only need about 2-4GB of RAM for even relatively heavy usage. However, every once in a while, I would run something that would spike memory usage and make the system unresponsive. While I have much more than 8GB nowadays, I'm not convinced that it's enough to have completely outrun the risk of this sort of behaviour re-occuring.

        • ch_1232 hours ago
          I think it's some kind of misplaced desire to be "lightweight" and avoid allocating disk space that cannot be used for regular storage. My motivation way back when for wanting to avoid swap was due to concerns about SSD wear issues, but those have been solved for a long time ago.
        • man8alexd2 hours ago
          8-16-32gb of swap space without cgroup limits would get the system into swap thrashing and make it unresponsive.
      • solstice2 hours ago
        I had a similar experience with Kubuntu on a xps13 from 2016 with only 8GB of RAM and the system suddenly freezing so hard that a hard reboot was required. While looking for the cause, I noticed that the system had only 250 MB of swap space. After increasing that to 10 GB there have been no further instances of freezing so far.
    • Titan21892 hours ago
      We use it in production. Workloads with unpredictable memory usage (32Mb to 4Gb per process), but we also want to start enough processes to saturate the CPU. Before we configured & enabled swap we were either sitting at low CPU utilisation or OOM
    • wongarsu2 hours ago
      It's unloved on Linux because using Linux under memory pressure sucks. But that's not a good reason to abandon improvements. Even more so with the direction RAM prices are headed
      • gf000an hour ago
        It sucks for interactive use only. It could be solved in user space (see the other comment with cgroups), it just isn't.
      • man8alexd2 hours ago
        It sucks without proper cgroup limits because swap makes OOM slower to trigger. Either set the cgroup limits or make the swap small.
        • ChocolateGod2 hours ago
          This requires additional setup from the user, the default setup should just "work".
          • man8alexdan hour ago
            There are different definitions of "just work".
    • SCdF2 hours ago
      You should still use swap. It's not "2x RAM" as advice anymore, and hasn't been for years: https://chrisdown.name/2018/01/02/in-defence-of-swap.html

      tl;dr; give it 4-8GB and forget about it.

      • ch_1232 hours ago
        I've heard "square root of physical memory" as a heuristic, although in practice I use less than this with some of my larger systems.
        • man8alexd2 hours ago
          The proper rule of thumb is to make the swap large enough to keep all inactive anonymous pages after the workload has stabilized, but not too large to cause swap thrashing and a delayed OOM kill if a fast memory leak happens.
          • boomlinde34 minutes ago
            That's not so much a rule of thumb as an assessment you can only make after thorough experimentation or careful analysis.
            • man8alexd25 minutes ago
              You don't need "horough experimentation or careful analysis". Just keep free swap space below few hundred megabytes but above zero.
              • boomlinde19 minutes ago
                "Keep swap space below few hundred megabytes but above zero" is a good example of a rule of thumb.

                "Make the swap large enough to keep all inactive anonymous pages after the workload has stabilized, but not too large to cause swap thrashing and a delayed OOM kill if a fast memory leak happens" is not.

    • krautsaueran hour ago
      I rely on it heavily. Have you tried zram swap?
    • sl-12 hours ago
      It is still useful for many workloads, I use it in work and on my own machines