225 pointsby WaitWaitWha7 hours ago27 comments
  • Ms-Ja minute ago
    Here is another example of ICE directly working with Israeli Spyware companies.

    "What Is ICE Doing With This Israeli Spyware Firm?"

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/technology/software/what-is-ice-do...

    The abuse to us normal people has to stop before we really organize and fix things.

  • viraptor5 hours ago
    Since there's quite a few people here working at US companies with access to lots of user data, but they may not have decision making capacity, I just thought I'll link the Simple Sabotage Field Manual, out of context and for no reason at all https://www.cia.gov/static/5c875f3ec660e092cf893f60b4a288df/...

    If some data is shared with an external entity, it likely needs to be included in a few usual disclaimers, with at least a few meetings to clarify the exact wording and verification of the legal implications with the right dept and double check how it complies with others data protection rules, and don't forget the audit, and I think this contains a mistake so maybe let's investigate this issue first, and ...

    • account42an hour ago
      Might I suggest to instead reflect on why you are working in an industry that collects all this data.
    • 4 hours ago
      undefined
    • frumplestlatz4 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • elnatro4 hours ago
        Please, enlighten me a non-American, what laws allow shooting and killing civilians on broad light on the USA?
        • Paracompact3 hours ago
          Some people have absolutist takes on these sorts of things. If the stated purpose makes sense ("stop illegal immigration"), they will dismiss tragedies as routine accidents of an imperfect world. If they have no sense of when exceptions become intolerable and course-correction becomes necessary, then by definition, no amount of evidence will change their mind.
          • xp843 hours ago
            What if we believe that those shootings are completely unacceptable (probably criminal), but that “have no immigration enforcement and permanently halt deportations” is also unacceptable? The latter seems to be the solution being pushed by one party.

            Like always, the left’s problem is that their proposed solutions read like they were written by teenagers, based on emotions and dismissive of the reasons why their supposed “enemies” disagree with them.

            Most Americans would support having ICE operate perhaps even entirely with nonlethal weapons. That would be a smart thing to push for! And popular too. But the party line is instead “Abolish ICE.” And of course nobody (who isn’t pro-open-borders) trusts that there’s any Democratic plan besides look-the-other-way and maybe amnesty.

            • sham13 hours ago
              I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever actually heard someone give a reason why the US having open borders would be a bad thing. You are a country of immigrants, and your greatness was built upon that foundation.

              Yet now it's getting undone for seemingly no reason. But I hope that there would actually be one, so please enlighten me and the other commenters.

            • AlecSchueler3 hours ago
              > "have no immigration enforcement and permanently halt deportations” is also unacceptable? The latter seems to be the solution being pushed by one party.

              What party? What makes it "seem" that way? Could you link to anyone calling for this?

              • nosianu3 hours ago
                Those using memes along the lines of "nobody is illegal" (sometimes "on stolen land" is added)? This is a movement not limited to the US. Here in Europe there is a similar movement, using that same slogan. They don't want any borders or border enforcement at all.

                Merely for illustration, a single example: https://abc7.com/post/protests-expected-socal-part-nationwid...

                > Protesters were seen carrying flags, signs and spraying graffiti on nearby property, including on the U.S. Courthouse sign where it read "No one is illegal on stolen land".

                • kace91an hour ago
                  >"nobody is illegal"

                  This is completely orthogonal to the conversation, but I think you misunderstood that slogan. It does not mean “immigration rules must not be enforced”.

                  It means differentiating between a potentially illegal action (illegal entry/overstaying) and the person itself. You never talk about an illegal driver, or an illegal drinker, but people talk about illegal immigrants, with the implication that the person itself is illegal.

                  It’s subtle but it’s a step towards dehumanizing a person, or making infractions to their rights “count less” in the public eye.

                • AlecSchueler2 hours ago
                  The protest you linked wasn't calling for completely open borders. That's also not policy of either of the main parties in the US, as was implied above. I understand "no one is illegal" to be a counter to the use of language like "illegals" to describe the humans involved.
                  • nosianu2 hours ago
                    Why do you choose that single example, which I said was just that, and pretend my whole statement hinges on it?

                    You are either misinformed, willfully ignorant or lying, and I've had it with this discussion style.

                    Yes, people who use "no one is illegal" do also say "no more borders". Not every single one, clearly humans are diverse, but your statement is just false.

                    Here a UK example even combining the statements (as I said, the movement is not limited to the US). https://www.jstor.org/stable/community.11073215

                    Another example, also showing this is an older movement (2005): https://www.statewatch.org/media/documents/news/2005/apr/int... ("No Borders/No One Is Illegal campaigns")

                    • giaouran hour ago
                      Just because some people who say "no one is illegal" also say "no more borders," that does not automatically mean that the former implies the latter. If that were the case, we could paint everyone who agrees with Nick Fuentes on any point (including, in the extreme, "nice weather we're having today") as a antisemite. The old joke linking dietary choices to Nazism ("You know who else was a vegetarian? Hitler!") is meant to make light of this logical fallacy.

                      The grandparent post accurately captured what I have understood people to mean by "no one is illegal" -- it is meant to protest a dehumanizing way to describe a class of people.

                • cassepipe2 hours ago
                  Yes some leftists and anarchiste do. Do you really believe the Democrats support that motto ?

                  Don't you guys remind us about Obama being "the deporter in chief" every time you are given the occasion ?

            • schiem3 hours ago
              The irony of this comment is that deportations were higher under Biden than during Trump's first term, which makes it seem exactly like it was "written by teenagers, based on emotions." The administration with the highest deportation rate in the past 60 years was the 2nd Clinton administration.
            • duk3luk33 hours ago
              You are completely out of touch with what the immigration policy of the last democratic government (Biden 2020) was.

              It was aggressive, it was inhumane, and immigrants were killed despite a massive effort by people from "the left" to feed and clothe people who were detained in open fields or between two border fences without any care being provided by the US agencies detaining them.

              Maybe you are right that nobody who is right-leaning trusts that the US democratic party isn't pro border enforcement and anti immigration, but that's based purely on lies and propaganda.

            • Paracompact3 hours ago
              Years ago, I would have agreed with most of what you wrote. The left, like the right, reacts with emotion and absolutism. No one is above this, so I think it is very important that we frequently assess what would actually change our minds.

              Given the present tide of things, however, I think there's no amount of course-correction back toward the left that would prove excessive. My opinion on this will change as soon as the tide does, and e.g. a leftist president endorses indiscriminate murder of ICE agents, or something equally egregious to what we're seeing in the opposite direction.

              In a more ideological sense, though, I tend to despise the left/right continuum and think it is unhelpful for analysis.

              • throwawayqqq11an hour ago
                > a leftist president endorses indiscriminate murder of ICE agents

                Comparing the rhetoric today, this might never happen. There are qualitative differences between both political geoups, so grouping them together as a single horseshoe is 'unhelpful for analysis'.

                That said, you cant fully rule out leftist led atrocities aswell and maybe thats the reason why the right is escalating in violent rhetoric, they want this as a self fullfilling prophecy to justify more violence.

                When Kirk was shot, all the "this needs to stop" commentary, as if it was an organized mass phenomenon, was sending shivers down my spine. We all know how the far right envisions stopping this 'mass' violence.

            • saubeidlan hour ago
              ICE as an institution is fundamentally evil.

              It's using immigration as a pretext to build an unaccountable group of thugs that disappear people into camps, murder political opponents and surveil the populace (as seen in OP). It's recruiting primarily from far-right militias, regularizing them into a paramilitary force of the regime.

              There is no justifiable reason to have them terrorize an entire city like they have been doing in Minneapolis.

              The brownshirts needed to be abolished in the 1920s, a pinky-swear they wouldn't do the thing they were designed to do wouldn't have been enough.

              The same applies to their modern equivalent.

            • cassepipe2 hours ago
              Then shouldn't you blame the party making a absolute shitshow of enforcing immigration out of incompetence and cruelty instead ? (and pressuring a state for its voters roll in the foolish attempt at meddlmeddling with the next election)

              If I want what I believe is a reasonable policy and the enforcers of that policy start doing the worst job ever, it is my duty to call them out, not to call out the opposing side for mostly imaginary reasons.

              Abolish ICE is not a unreasonable take. If the agents working in this agency have become some ultra politicized paramilitary, it makes sense to abolish it and create a new agency altogether.

            • actionfromafar3 hours ago
              ICE is being converted into a militia controlled by Trump. So keeping it around may be dangerous.
            • decremental3 hours ago
              [dead]
          • account42an hour ago
            And some people will use tragedies as am argument to just stop enforcing laws at all even when those tragedies are a direct result of people trying to interfere with that enforcement and would have never have happened when people opposing the laws acted in reasonable ways.
        • runsWphotons3 hours ago
          When an officer has reasonable suspicion that a civilian poses a threat to his life, he can shoot them. Once police start shooting they are trained to continue shooting until the target is incapacitated. That's the law. Whether the recent shootings you saw meet that standard is up for debate.
          • Cthulhu_2 hours ago
            Sure, there's procedures to arresting someone and when they are allowed to shoot, that's all fine. But the danger is that these procedures are not being followed, and that there are no consequences to it.

            That people get killed is a tragedy, but that the people that killed them do not get the proper training, guidance or consequences for their action is a problem.

          • giaouran hour ago
            Beyond the reasonable suspicion of a threat to their life, the officer must believe that: a) the threat is imminent, and b) the threat will reasonably be mitigated by the application of force. An officer cannot, for example, immediately shoot someone who plausibly promises to murder them in 36 hours.
          • donkeybeer2 hours ago
            Absolutely, likewise we should shoot ICE officers who come near us because we have strong precedent they are mentally unstable and prone to psychotic bouts of insensate violence. Since we have more than reasonable suspicion of threat to our life.
          • runsWphotons3 hours ago
            Also the officer should believe this threat is imminent.
          • cassepipe2 hours ago
            Sure but the first was arguably unreasonable and the second one was omg are you f@##%&@ kidding me, didn't you see the video about a peppered sprayed guy on his belly on the ground then not possibly brandishing with no gun since it had just been removed from him ?

            It's fine to make reasonable sounding comments but for the love of God, a bit honesty wouldn't kill you.

            "The party told you to ignore the evidence you see with your own ears and eyes*

          • rcakebread3 hours ago
            [flagged]
        • frumplestlatz3 hours ago
          [flagged]
          • jacquesm3 hours ago
            [flagged]
            • frumplestlatz3 hours ago
              I’d welcome a refutation of my points. Analogizing legal disagreement to participation in genocidal violence is both historically unserious and completely counterproductive to substantive discussion.

              If you believe any specific point I advanced is comparable to the NSDAP’s crimes, identify it. Substituting abuse for argument is thought-terminating.

              [edit]

              Since I'm hitting rate limits:

              > Here's a complete refutation of your argument: Pretti did not attempt to "de-arrest" anyone at any point. Nobody, not even ICE, DHS, the White House, or the FBI has argued this. Whoever told you this made it up. You should stop listening to whoever told you that. They are lying to you about this, and everything else they have told you is a lie too.

              timestamp 1:01

              https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2026/jan/26/second...

              The Guardian, not known for being a bastion of right-wing thought, states "Pretti steps in to defend them". "Stepping in to defend" during an active federal enforcement action is, by definition, physical interference. That conduct satisfies the elements of interfering with federal officers performing official duties.

              • duk3luk33 hours ago
                Here's a complete refutation of your argument: Pretti did not attempt to "de-arrest" anyone at any point. Nobody, not even ICE, DHS, the White House, or the FBI has argued this.

                Whoever told you this made it up. You should stop listening to whoever told you that. They are lying to you about this, and everything else they have told you is a lie too.

              • jacquesm3 hours ago
                [flagged]
      • amazingman3 hours ago
        We should be able to agree that no entity is authorized to violate the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 14th amendments of the constitution. Whatever immigration laws you want to see enforced, they do not supersede the constitution.
      • superb_dev3 hours ago
        It’s so hard to believe people posting in support of ICE aren’t trolls or bots. Are you watching them commit obscene crimes in broad daylight?
      • _DeadFred_3 hours ago
        Is that the 'police don't need to identify themselves and should wear face masks' or the 'you aren't allowed to film the police because it interferes with our trying to be a secret police force' laws?

        Or the 'you aren't doing anything illegal but the masked government agents don't like it so they are going to use your biometrics to harass you in whatever ways the feds can make your life more difficult' laws?

        • frumplestlatz3 hours ago
          18 U.S.C. § 111 (Assaulting/Impeding Officers): Prohibits forcibly assaulting, resisting, opposing, impeding, intimidating, or interfering with federal officers performing official duties.
          • elnatro2 hours ago
            Does that law allow killing them by shooting? I suppose that officers need to detain them, read their rights, and put them in court. That’s what I thought was the core of the American Law.
            • account4221 minutes ago
              If the officers involved had could reasonably believe that they posed an immediate lethal threat at the time, yes it does. Whether or not that was the case is for courts to figure out after things calm down and all facts have been gathered and not a valid reason to call for the shut down of entire agencies with the intent of stopping enforcement of laws you don't like.
          • donkeybeer2 hours ago
            Minnesota is a castle doctrine state. Minnesotans have the right to shoot at violent home invaders on their property.
          • cassepipe2 hours ago
            under penalty of death ?
      • jamboca3 hours ago
        i want to comment something violently hateful towards you. but at this point I feel bad for people like you. indeed you are already living out some twisted arc of the karmic cycle which results in your life and making this comment. i hope you find help eventually and i wish peace for you.
        • frumplestlatz3 hours ago
          If you believe I’m wrong, articulate why. Moral posturing doesn’t resolve disagreements; it escalates them.

          [edit]

          Only one of us seems to be emotionally dysregulated to the point of "living in hell". You're awfully full of invective for someone that doesn't care. As for escalation, perhaps look to officer-involved shootings that were totally unnecessary and whose entire proximate cause was the same kind of hysteria-driven emotional dysregulation you're exhibiting here.

          I'm getting what I voted for, and to be honest, it's a breath of fresh air. There are adults running the country again, not emotional children, and I genuinely couldn't be happier.

          • jamboca2 hours ago
            firstly i dont dont care about you or what you have to think. second escalation is meaningless Lol what is this a boxing gym? we’re on an internet forum

            put simply ice is a violent private militia. and people like you won’t see it until they are knocking at your door. or never. goes back to my first point. you are already living in hell

            nvm this has to be bait Bye

      • BoredPositron3 hours ago
        If you think enforcing the laws is the problem you are ignorant.
      • mindslight3 hours ago
        And yet many more of us care about the centuries-old laws that ICE is violating.
      • hdgvhicv3 hours ago
        Hurrah for the Blackshirts
  • Ms-J4 minutes ago
    ICE will need to hit up Israel for that data.

    Israeli companies are constantly working on spyware and advertising technologies.

    Take a look at abominations such as the product Sherlock produced by Insanet:

    https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/16/insanet_spyware/

    https://cyberjustice.blog/2024/01/22/sherlock-the-terrifying...

    There are loads of others.

  • doctoboggan6 hours ago
    Hopefully this is a wakeup call to the software engineers and other employees at those companies - it's no longer a hypothetical future where the tools you are building might be abused, it's today.
    • account4215 minutes ago
      If you need to wait until the tools you build are being used for things you disagree with before seeing the problem with building those tools then you have already failed.
    • testfrequency4 hours ago
      If you’re not awake already, you support what’s happening.

      Blind, which I realize is a bit of the wild west, is full of racist anti-immigration/pro ICE hatred. Obviously, you can see where users work/worked, and it’s every company you could imagine.

      The sad reality is that a lot of people will do what they can to support racist agendas, possibly even motivate them to work at certain companies as it feels moralizing to their hateful beliefs.

      • andsoitis4 hours ago
        > you support what’s happening.

        I don’t know that things are that black and white.

        Do you feel the same about the billions of consumers who buy and use the products these companies make?

        • dns_snek3 hours ago
          No because employees are making the actual thing that inflicts harm while consumers' actions are completely diffused and many steps removed from the harm they cause. That's why ad-tech is so effective in the first place.

          Consumer pays $1.10 for a can of coke, $0.10 of that goes to ad-tech, the consumer watches some coke ads, ad-tech pays $0.05 to the publisher and the consumer receives $0.05 in benefits in the form of "free ad-supported content" (which they already paid $0.10 for).

          The only way for consumers to avoid this is to just stop spending money with any brand that advertises online, which is completely unrealistic and a much taller ask than asking employees to give up their deal with the devil (and work for just about anyone else except big tech).

          • reactordevan hour ago
            Replace “tech” in this scenario with “ammunition”.

            Does your argument still hold up?

            >”employees are making the actual thing that inflicts harm while consumers' actions are completely diffused and many steps removed from the harm they cause.”

            “employees are making the actual thing that inflicts harm while consumers' actions directly cause deadly harm.”

            I’m not arguing that we shouldn’t be voting with our wallets and supporting these people but your initial argument is flawed. They produce goods precisely because consumers buy them…

          • lukanan hour ago
            "The only way for consumers to avoid this "

            Or they could stop drinking coke? But I guess that is too much to ask.

            • account4213 minutes ago
              That's what gp said, except Coke isn't the only thing that funds the advertising industry - it's pretty much every product you can buy.
        • Paracompact3 hours ago
          There are degrees of culpability in any discussion. Generally, this is approximated by how much damage you individually are doing to your society compared to the alternative. You have to consume a lot of a company's products before your impact is comparable to working for them.
        • cucumber3732842an hour ago
          Black and white thinking is a large part of what got us here.
        • testfrequency4 hours ago
          Consumers less so.

          They are the victims, not the source.

          • amelius2 hours ago
            Fully agree.

            If you want to put the blame on consumers, at least show them on your adverts, product packaging, etc. all the morally abject methods used in the production of the product.

            If you hide it from them, all the blame is on you.

      • Diti4 hours ago
        With the sorry state the software industry is currently in, I’m not surprised that developers would sell their soul in exchange for the peace of mind of being able to pay rent and food. Working for those companies does not make people “do what they can to support racist agendas”.
        • ljman hour ago
          Perhaps to show the level of privilege I enjoy as a software engineer with some level of seniority, I have had zero problem resigning from a position (more than once in fact) because I objected to something my employer was doing. It's been enough for me to filter potential opportunities exclusively to tech-for-good concerns.

          Sure, I don't earn half a million a year total comp to kiss some billionaire's ass, but I still have a very comfortable lifestyle that is well above the median.

          • account429 minutes ago
            Yeah, the software is perhaps one of the industries where the "I got bills to pay" argument is the least justifiable. If your lifestyle can only be sustained by working for unethical companies then your lifestyle is unethical. You certainly don't need to sell your soul to FAANG to live a comfortable and happy life.
        • hackable_sand2 hours ago
          I can pay rent and feed myself without hurting people

          Everything else is an excuse

        • testfrequency4 hours ago
          Is this your way of sharing that you work at X or are open to hurting people in exchange for cash?

          Also, you can retain your morals and choose a career, it is optional to select where you work as it’s hopefully voluntary.

          • surgical_fire4 hours ago
            There's nothing voluntary when your options are homelessness and starvation. The bank won't accept your morals in lieu of money when accepting mortgage repayments.

            Thankfully I don't live in the US and I don't work for anything even remotely related to this. I don't know if I would have the fortitude in the current US job market (based on what I read here) to threat the well being of the wife and daughter by taking principled stances.

            • RGamma4 hours ago
              Dilapidating the world for an easy buck is gonna bite you and/or your kids eventually. We have reached technological sophistication where certain kinds of mistakes are not allowed if civilization as we know it is to survive.
              • surgical_fire3 hours ago
                When the bank reposseses the house because you are not paying the mortgage, this will bite you and your kids too.

                You can call it an "easy buck", and it is just coping. An easy way to make some poor schlemiel creating a miserable report with user location data during his sprint into a greedy bastard that is just enriching his bank account out of the suffering of plenty.

                • RGamma3 hours ago
                  Atomization enables this. Any number of individuals are individually weak against their employer/some org, but a big group of them can be quite powerful.

                  If many were to sacrifice their morals out of financial pressure easily (the control over which is in increasingly few hands) the path the US is treading becomes pretty deterministic... We've seen it in the movies and read it in the books.

                  You guys seem to need collective action and civil disobedience.

                  Then again.. maybe the will for collective action comes only after the repossessions...

                  • surgical_fire2 hours ago
                    > You guys

                    One of the reasons I chose to move to Europe is because I value the mininal safety nets and labor protections on this side of the pond. Yes, I make less money and pay more taxes but I believe this is how society should work, I reject the hyper individualism that ignores any sort of collective.

                    But I am also not naive. Expecting individuals to take the burden for decisions way beyond their control is silly. It takes immense fortitude to threaten the well being of those dear to you based on principle, when the only outcome is your own suffering (the company will likely find another employee right away anyway).

                    • jacquesm2 hours ago
                      The best way to evaluate any society is to look at what happens to people without power in the system. Inmates, illegals, the poor and children.
            • testfrequency4 hours ago
              You chose the most absolute and extreme predicament possible to cast your “money is money” belief.

              You do realize this is what most criminals of the world just so happen to say as well, right?

              Where is the line?

              • surgical_fire4 hours ago
                There's nothing extreme in what I said, it is actually how the world we live in works.

                It's an extremely unfair system based on coercion - you are beaten down into submission by the implicit threat that without work you won't be able to make ends meet.

                Maybe you have a family that can support you financially. Maybe you already own the place where you live and could save up money over an extended period that you can weather a storm. If you are in these situations, that's great, but it is also an extremely privileged position to be in.

                • account425 minutes ago
                  Absolutely no one with the skills to work in the software industry is in a position where working for unethical mega-corporations or literally starving are their only options.
            • umanwizard4 hours ago
              Okay, I'll accept your point for those software engineers that have a choice between working at an immoral company or "homelessness and starvation".

              Thankfully, that isn't most of them. Despite the job market not being as good as it used to be, the vast majority of software engineers in the US could still find another job to pay the bills before becoming homeless and starving.

              • surgical_fire3 hours ago
                If that's the case, great then. I did work for a company I find morally objectionable in the past (i.e.: evil), and I eventually found my way out.

                At the time I was still paying rent and needed employment to keep my visa. I also had little savings, and an ill parent that depended on me. I certainly couldn't take the principled stance of "fuck this, I'm out".

                My point is that if you are in the position to take a principled stance, good for you. Maybe you already own your home, maybe you had time to accumulate savings, maybe you can do a few interviews and land a less evil job even in the current market (and perhaps a pay cut won't be a massive blow in you life). All that is awesome, but also a position of relative privilege.

                Prescribing principled stance as universal without recognizing this is just cruelty though.

                • Kim_Bruning2 hours ago
                  I sympathize with your situation, and I'm not calling you a monster. But "I had no choice, I had people depending on me" is the exact reasoning that has enabled every atrocity carried out by ordinary people; it's the banality of evil.

                  None of the individual acts seem evil. Conducting a census isn't evil. Collating the data isn't evil. Arresting people with the wrong papers isn't necessarily evil. Driving a train isn't evil. Operating a switch isn't evil. Processing paperwork isn't evil.

                  Look what's proposed now: Adtech has the data, this would feed into ICE systems leading to arrests, flights are conducted, and people get put into prison camps like CECOT where they have no recourse and where people are already talking about forced labor.

                  So no, I'm not saying to these folks "you're literally causing Auschwitz". That's a famous Vernichtungslager, and that's not true yet.

                  But people getting locked up in Concentrationslager or Arbeitslager (like historically : Mittelbau-Dora, Flossenbürg, Mauthausen, and Monowitz). I think we're getting there.

                  I guess the question is: at which point do you decide maybe to wear extra layers or skip a meal instead? We're not there yet. The chain has many links. Eternal vigilance is needed to make sure they don't actually link up.

                  (ps. Imagine if I was posting this in 2024! Can I exchange this timeline for another please? )

                  • jacquesm2 hours ago
                    > That's a famous Vernichtungslager, and that's not true yet.

                    But it may well become true soon.

                  • surgical_firean hour ago
                    I understand quite well. The banality of evil is a thing because most people have actual very little power to enact meaningful change. Risking yourself for the well being of complete strangers is commendable, but often has an obscene cost for the individual.

                    I reject that societal and systemic issues can be fixed by individual action, unless as an individual you are extremely powerful (and the ones that are typically are the ones causing the societal and systemic harm).

                    As an common man you can do small things. Do a lousy job when processing the paperwork of evil. Malicious cooperation to the powers that be. Small acts of charity. That sort of thing.

                    Systemic change can only be achieved through collective action. Easier said than done.

                    The world is cursed. Life is tough even at the best of times. The system as it is ensures compliance through coercion and threats.

                    I honestly believe we would agree more than disagree on the current state of things. I just reject the approach that individual action is a way out of this sort of mess.

                    • Kim_Bruningan hour ago
                      My father keeps asking me why I don't I ever apply to $BIGCO and earn more money. I certainly have the ability, he says.

                      But I ask him, "But would you work for Lex Luthor?"

                      He doesn't have a good comeback to that.

                      Anyway, I (mostly, hopefully) try to make my small corner of the world a happy place. And I hope everyone else does for theirs.

        • AlecSchueler3 hours ago
          > With the sorry state the software industry is currently in, I’m not surprised that developers would sell their soul in exchange for the peace of mind of being able to pay rent and food

          You really think adtech is the way to avoid starving on the street? There are a hell of a lot of jobs between entry level and adtech dev that could give you the same basic peace of mind.

        • watwut4 hours ago
          There was never shortage of developers who "would sell their soul" for higher salary in conditions where job with slightly lower salary was easily available. I really do not think we have to pretend to our selves that if one of us does it, it is because he/she is poor and the kids would starve.

          Also, layers are resining from positions in doj they find unethical. It is not like the jobs for them were easier to find.

      • satvikpendem4 hours ago
        Blind is like 4chan, not representative of the vast majority of software engineers but rather their own self contained bubble. I wouldn't use Blind as exemplary of anything in this case.
        • rkomorn3 hours ago
          I spent enough time in FAANG and adjacent to realize that some of the senior engineers and directors around me held 4chan/Blind-like beliefs.

          Some of those folks were cultural leaders in the orgs I belonged to. Some even passed for nice people.

      • 3 hours ago
        undefined
    • tokyobreakfast6 hours ago
      But those tools buy Teslas and $8 donuts and cardboard apartments in trendy neighborhoods for people too young to understand how money works.
      • badbird36 hours ago
        Quite the high horse you got there
        • tokyobreakfast5 hours ago
          Considering there are hundreds or thousands of users on this site who have taken cash—either directly or indirectly—in exchange for building the world's most egregious examples of privacy-abusing software that were formerly only memes in 80s sci-fi movies. Yet they choose to focus their energy on getting upset over things they don't understand and can't control—like immigration enforcement.

          No, my conscience is clean.

        • hsbauauvhabzb6 hours ago
          It’s worth pointing out that a non-insignificant subset of tech workers know the impacts and still don’t give a fuck though.
          • hsbauauvhabzb5 hours ago
            @anoym - There isn’t something inherently bad about working for law enforcement or national security agencies as long as what you’re doing cannot be used now or in the future unethically. But too be honest I think this is a ‘don’t hate the player’ type things, if palantir didn’t exist, another company would take its place - privacy legislation is the only thing that prevents it, not relying on ethics of the masses.
            • lan3212 hours ago
              > legislation is the only thing that prevents it

              I strongly agree. There's even the argument to be made that if no legislation exists, even if you're anti X, you might get incentivized to build a company for X just so it's not a fan of X at the helm of the top company for X.

              Blaming it on the employees is pointless. It's the law that should dictate what's allowed and what isn't and if the lawmaking or enforcement isn't working you probably want some "good" people in those companies.

            • IhateAI5 hours ago
              All Law enforcement and Nat Sec of the United States is inherently unethical, or at minimum tied to ethically questionabke tactics. We have the highest incarceration rates in the world, death penalties ect. Our Military isnt exactly ethical in its missions, pretty much since WW2

              You're basically saying "There isnt anything inherently wrong about working for the 4th Reich"

              • fauchletenerum4 hours ago
                This is a childishly simplistic view of the world
                • cess114 hours ago
                  What complexity is it you'd like to add?
                  • golem143 hours ago
                    For instance, the local cops checking in on grandma, or those checking in on a troubled child are really not the bad guys. You WANT them when you need them.

                    Not all LEOs are brown shirts, In my experience, few are, but they give the lot a bad rap.

                    Treating LEOs uniformly as evil is just counterproductive

                    • donkeybeer2 hours ago
                      Yes but I don't have a definitive map of who are the good ones, so we must treat it as a life or death situation and suitably defend ourselves in an interaction with any of them.
                    • cess113 hours ago
                      Why would I want cops doing that instead of social workers or teachers doing it?

                      No one becomes a cop because they want to be nice and help vulnerable people. Some might say they did but that is some coping technique. Being a cop involves exerting violence towards people who are vulnerable and desperate, and to become one you have to be fine with this. Some would say that this alone is enough to deem a person ethically dubious.

                      Even if one would accept the premise that society requires some degree of organised violence towards its members, one would also have to handle the question of accountability. Reasonably this violence should be accountable in relation to the victims of it, and police institutions inherently are not.

                      I think that we should also note that the other person above used "childishly" to denote something negative, apparently they don't think of kids as the light of the world and childish as something fun and inspiring. This is something that makes me quite suspicious of their morals.

              • hsbauauvhabzb2 hours ago
                No, I’m not ‘basically’ saying that. Stop putting words in my mouth.
          • SpicyLemonZest5 hours ago
            Is it worth pointing out? It seems counterproductive to respond to a call to action by sarcastically complaining about the people being called to action.
            • tokyobreakfast5 hours ago
              The call is coming from inside the house.
              • SpicyLemonZest5 hours ago
                As effective calls to action often do! It's almost tautological when I say it this way, but if you want people working in ad tech to oppose ICE you have to convince them it's good for people working in ad tech to oppose ICE.

                Perhaps the conflict is that you just want to make people who work in ad tech feel bad, and don't care whether or not they enable ICE? That's fine, I suppose, there's industries I feel the same way about. But then we don't have much to talk about and I'm not sure what you hope to gain from being here. To me opposing ICE is very important - I think tobacco companies are pretty bad too, but if ICE sent out a request for cartons of cigarettes I'd shovel praise on them for declining.

                • CalRobert3 hours ago
                  That’s the voice part of exit, loyalty, voice is it not?
                • danaris4 hours ago
                  > you have to convince them it's good for people working in ad tech to oppose ICE.

                  Yes—and one of the tools we have for that is shunning.

                  If enough of us who are appalled and disgusted by the state of things, and the people who willingly lend themselves to creating said state, make our disgust with those people known, it can lead to some of them choosing to act differently, because they care about being thought well of by their fellow techies.

                  • SpicyLemonZest4 hours ago
                    I agree with what you're saying, but shunning has to be selective to be effective. People have to believe that you won't shun them if they avoid the terrible things you're trying to stop. It's too much to simultaneously beef with ICE, adtech in general, Tesla, $8 donuts, and anyone who lives in a trendy neighborhood.
          • anonym296 hours ago
            A lot of them are even proud of being the loyal partners of the US intelligence community, which includes DHS and ICE.
        • deaux5 hours ago
          Hey there, I quit a job over similar concerns, knowing it would lead to a >70% decrease in comp. Without a significant nest egg or wealth, whether personal or through family.

          Now let me say the same: But those tools buy Teslas and $8 donuts and cardboard apartments in trendy neighborhoods for people too young to understand how money works.

          There, now there's no longer a high horse concern.

          • rl34 hours ago
            >...I quit a job over similar concerns, knowing it would lead to a >70% decrease in comp. Without a significant nest egg or wealth, whether personal or through family.

            Hey, thanks for doing the right thing.

          • jacquesm3 hours ago
            Thank you!

            It takes real courage and it costs to have principles. And just like I detest those that fall for the money I have insane respect for those that stand up.

        • 5 hours ago
          undefined
    • niek_pas5 hours ago
      NARRATOR: It wasn’t.
    • cucumber3732842an hour ago
      >Hopefully this is a wakeup call to the software engineers and other employees at those companies

      No, it won't be. Except perhaps to too few to make a difference. The money is too good.

    • salawat4 hours ago
      It wasn't a hypothetical future back in the time of DoubleClick.

      In the words of the XO from the Alfa class submarine to his CO in The Hunt for Red October: "You've killed us, you ass."

    • mrtksn3 hours ago
      What makes you believe that software engineers are against the stuff happening? This new movement is defined by male loneliness and other sad traits that are quite common among people whom life passes in front of a computer. Curtis Yarvin, one of the masterminds of this new age is a software developer himself.

      I would argue that whatever is happening now is part of the revenge of the nerds once the nerds remain unsatisfied despite the material possessions they acquired as software ate the world.

      People deeply disconnected from the real world, seeing numbers and thinking with numbers without understanding the underlying realities of those numbers is a trait of any low touch system that developers and other IT professionals operate within.

      Just yesterday apparently when asked Trump said "it's just two people" that were executed by ICE and steered the conversation when he was pushed to elaborate.

      Probably from tech perspective ICE is incredibly well working, in tech world you can take away the livelihood of thousands of people by a single line of a code that changes an algorithm that bans someone or re-sorts the search results. Someone loses their Youtube account they built for years due to algorithm misfiring, someone loses their developer account on an App Store and can't even get a reason for it.

      The tech world is very used to operate in a fascist high efficiency environment that enshittifies everything that touches but keeps improving on some selected KPI. Maybe they wish it doesn't happen but they are not going to sacrifice higher numbers for the lives of a few people. Welcome to the highly efficient(according to selected KPI) new world order.

      I know you don't like to hear that as this is a place for IT people but the governance of online platforms is quite fascist across the board. People are banned, shadow banned or rate limited when don't behave or don't say the right stuff. Preserving order and increasing engagement is above everything, even those who claim that they came to make "speech free again" quickly turned into just changing what speech to be allowed.

      Anything controversial that is attracting negativity is hidden away unless it is feeding the narrative of the platform, then it is actively promoted.

      Therefore, I don't think that IT workers have any remorse or any problem with this new reality. Its the reality they built and most are loving it.

      The medium is the message but the medium was built bit by bit by IT professionals in a span of 20 years.

    • riazrizvi5 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • prophesi5 hours ago
        Not OP, but I think the way ICE enforces immigration in the USA has a lot of issues. The bar is too low for people granted the right to utilize lethal force to join, they aren't revoked of the same civilian rights to privacy we give to public enforcers of the law, aren't required to wear bodycams because of their reliance in hiring more people before they can abide by what the law requires, and so on.
      • intermerda5 hours ago
        What an incredibly shitty comment which is wrong on so many levels. You are the type of person who believes that Oskar Schindler should have been shot to death for breaking the "law" rather than being celebrated.
        • jacquesm3 hours ago
          I'll be happy to bet he has no idea who that is and why supporting the Nazi's as long as they're doing your bidding is a bad idea.
      • trhway5 hours ago
        ICE doesn't follow the law. It breaks it.

        Its main mode of operation is fish-net-style catching brown people on the streets and making them sign voluntary deportation. That allows to bypass any court orders and any requirements of the law (like hearing, lawyer, etc).

        Edit: to the commenter below:

        >I care because my children are approaching the workforce and I want their opportunities to open up to them

        do you really want your children to work in strawberry fields in CA in 100+ degrees weather? That is the opportunities which mostly get open when you remove the migrants, legal or illegal, that ICE is targeting.

        • riazrizvi4 hours ago
          I'm a brown immigrant, the process to get into the US legally was long. I trust US institutions to have good intent, but like all institutions they fail at times. The mandate is to remove 25 million illegal migrants. I reject the hostile posture that people are taking based on negatively biased information, which in my view, further reassures me they are acting in Americans' best interest. I care because my children are approaching the workforce and I want their opportunities to open up to them, unlike I've witnessed in the tech industry where unscrupulous businesses have happily replaced American workers with labor that is desperate. You can't convince me that the negative bias toward ICE isn't in large part, funded and astroturfed by elements in the business lobby that don't care about unemployed citizens and residents, and further drafted by those who have jobs so can afford to not care.
          • danek_szy3 hours ago
            If you want job opportunities to open up to your children, perhaps you should invest in parenting that teaches them good values (like hard work and good attitude), education and sense of agency in place of hoping some government agency will kidnap and deport enough immigrants (many of which are legal, like you btw) for market to offer enough demand for them. The above point about „quality” of jobs „taken” by the immigrants is also very valid…
            • riazrizvi3 hours ago
              You believe jobs are being taken and handed to deserving illegal immigrants because they have a better work ethic. I believe they are because investors are seeking ever greater returns no matter the cost to other others or even the long term sustainability of those very returns. This is the basis of our different positions.
          • creatonez4 hours ago
            Deporting 25 million people using a terrorist militia is mass ethnic cleansing. Period. Has nothing to do with the job market, it is a basic historical reality.
          • jacquesm3 hours ago
            Do you honestly believe that when they're done with the illegal immigrants they're not going to come for the 'brown people in general'?
            • enaaem2 hours ago
              They will come after “domestic terrorists”.
      • blurbleblurble5 hours ago
        "It is an interesting and somewhat macabre parlor game to play at a large gathering of [hackernews readers]: to speculate who in a showdown would go Nazi."

        https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/

      • saubeidl4 hours ago
        Enforcing racial purity laws is abuse? Why are you impeding the Gestapo, a federal law enforcement agency? Why do you hate law and order, dirty anarchist?
        • jacquesm3 hours ago
          These are sad and dangerous times, you really should append the /s these because there are way too many people on HN who would take your comment and say 'he's one of us!'.
    • hikkerl6 hours ago
      Would you also consider it to be abuse if such tools were used to identify, locate, and apprehend perpetrators of less-controversial crimes (assault, pedophilia, theft, murder)?
      • int0x296 hours ago
        Get a warrant. The federal government should not be "soliciting vendors" for my location.

        I love how the accounts defending ICE are always brand new.

        • hikkerlan hour ago
          Reasonable comments engaging in discussions on HN are frequently downvoted and flagged by the hivemind, causing the account to be shadow banned (ie. any comment is immediately 'dead', invisible to others).

          I make a new account at least every week to get around this. This is my only account. Don't like it? Encourage your comrades to engage in good faith and tolerate perspectives that they personally disagree with.

          • donkeybeeran hour ago
            What? Where's the bad faith? You made a really dumb argument and got a simple factual response. And you still failed to engage with that response instead making up imaginary persecution.
        • learingsci4 hours ago
          I love how people don’t filter new users and then complain the new users say heretical things like “federal laws should be either enforced or changed”, a heresy that was consensus opinion during the Obama years when a consensus on policy matters was convenient.
          • j-pb4 hours ago
            German here, with little stakes in your shitshow. At no point during the obama years did I think:

            "Wow this looks just like the rise of the nazis!"

            Which was covered extensively during my history classes.

            Why did you even have all the school schootings if you don't use that stupid second ammendmend thing you have? This is the tyranical government you've all been waiting for.

            • franga20004 hours ago
              It seems like the first half of the 2nd ammendment isn't taught in schools, just the "I can has assault rifle" part.
            • habinero3 hours ago
              You can really tell which states actually fund their education programs by who understands this and who does not.
              • jacquesm3 hours ago
                It's a disease and it is spreading, fast.
      • sham16 hours ago
        I'm not the poster you replied to, but absolutely. Now personally I don't believe that this data should exist in the first place, but using it for law enforcement purposes is just very shilling and even worse than its "normal" use. I would think that someone with a fresh burner account would agree.
      • jacquesm3 hours ago
        You seem to be a bit scared of doing this all under your own name, comrade. But don't worry, we know exactly who you are.
        • maldev3 hours ago
          The dude asked a question and you're basically trying to intimidate him. Not only that, but your profile clearly says you aren't even American. Maybe you should focus on your own politics, or things you understand, and not try to threaten people. I personally, am glad we have this, so I don't experience what I do when I go to Europe, and get a bunch of illegal Africans terrorizing people in front of police. Or let alone the no go zones.

          I'm glad, to have spend most of my career in the government to stop these people coming in and terrorists. Which is why I can report, the US has a very low terror rate, especially when you look at foreign extremists, unlike other parts of the world.

          • jacquesm3 hours ago
            > Not only that, but your profile clearly says you aren't even American. Maybe you should focus on your own politics, or things you understand, and not try to threaten people.

            I'm not threatening anybody, I'm just pointing out that in the aggregate anonymity does not exist as told by TFA whereas the GP seems to believe it holds some weight. The only reason you are able to write your comment is simply because I'm not hiding.

            You on the other hand are.

            > I personally, am glad we have this, so I don't experience what I do when I go to Europe, and get a bunch of illegal Africans terrorizing people in front of police. Or let alone the no go zones.

            Funny, that hasn't happened to me yet. What also hasn't happened to me yet is that I got shot in the face at a protest.

            But: you are part of the problem, you believe you are part of the solution. The fact that you believe that you are part of the solution but you're not proud enough of it to do so under your own name tells the whole story. It's the equivalent of the mask of those ICE goons.

            https://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide/

            https://jacquesmattheij.com/trackers/

            > I'm glad, to have spend most of my career in the government to stop these people coming in and terrorists. Which is why I can report, the US has a very low terror rate, especially when you look at foreign extremists, unlike other parts of the world.

            That has something to do with two oceans and nothing at all with your efforts.

            • an hour ago
              undefined
            • maldev2 hours ago
              [flagged]
              • defrost2 hours ago
                > Also, unless you're violating your visa and breaking American laws. You wouldn't have gotten shot in the face at a protest in America.

                The women shot in the face by an ICE agent was not "violating her visa", nor was she violating American laws by being halted for a short time across a single lane with traffic passing her by.

                She was given conflicting instructions by two agents, and was within her rights to leave as she did, slowly, carefully, when she was shot through the front and then through a side window by the same agent.

                > I proudly stop terrorists, I proudly help law enforcement

                These particular agents were a clown show textbook example of how not to behave .. you should be not be proud to associate with them.

                As for American law - it's falling apart from the top: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/morning-memo/the-trump-doj-has...

                The people shooting US citizens in the face and in the back are repeatedly in violation of judges orders.

                • maldev2 hours ago
                  So, the government did an investigation. And assuming you're talking about the lady who tried to run over the cops, he had to go the hospital and had some pretty serious injuries. Just don't fight the cops, we have millions of law enforcement interactions everyday. And they all go well. But if you try to run over the police. They can defend themselves. Not only that, but if someone tried to run me over, I could also do the same act under the law. This is profoundly within our laws, and a right of self preservation. I know other countries, may not have the rights we do when it comes to this. But i'm glad to live where I do, where anyone can carry, and anyone can defend themselves and their life, without having to pray for someone to come and do it for them.

                  Also, please keep in mind, the majority of Americans, do believe that, hence the president, who campaigned on this. Getting the popular vote, and winning one of the most successful campaigns and the most votes in the history of our country.

                  • throwawayqqq11an hour ago
                    Since i cant reply to your flagged comment above, ill do it here.

                    > And I gotta ask, you think it's just two oceans, and what your experience is in the intelligence community field? Are you just assuming without knowing the inner workings?

                    This depicts the distribution of refugees caused by iraq and afghan wars. Which, to remind you, were proudly based on lies.

                    > https://www.unhcr.org/news/press-releases/iraqis-afghans-and...

                    > As a region, Europe received 75 percent of all asylum applications although the United States remained the single largest recipient country with an estimated 13 percent of all applications

                    Are you still proud making the world a better place? Maybe you are too busy fighting terrorists to reply.

                    • maldevan hour ago
                      Are you implying that refugees are terrorists? Also, according to any refugee agreement, you go to the first country of safe harbor. Not across the world. Why can’t they go back now, make Iraq great?

                      Also, they arnt killing Americans anymore are they? We gave them everything we could. But the afghan army chose to just do drugs and do nothing and now their women can’t go to school and don’t have rights again.

                  • defrost2 hours ago
                    > So, the government did an investigation

                    Not the state government, and the federal government is in the midst of not a investigation under the pretence of having one.

                    > But if you try to run over the police.

                    She did not. It's very clear that she did not.

                    Also .. ICE agents .. not "the police" - these were immigration agents overstepping their bounds.

                    See stories about breaking multiple judges orders.

                    • maldev2 hours ago
                      > Not the state government, and the federal government is in the midst of not a investigation under the pretence of having one.

                      So, the state government, has zero purview over the federal government. And immigration and interstate issues are under the domain of the federal government. They can't do an investigation, because there's probably LES(Law Enforcement Sensitive), or other sensitive government information. We have courts, and we have multiple branches of government. There's been zero charges, the executive defended and backed up the officer. The judicial hasn't done anything, because we can assume there's nothing to do. And there's a few members in the legislature pushing for it, but nothings coming, because he did nothing wrong.

                      Not only that, but if he did, the state government, could also try to prosecute the ICE officer. But, they arn't. The governor, and everyone else with power to prosecute and make a trial, under multiple jurisdictions, either are defending the officer, or not doing anything about what they think is a murderer, when they have the power. The governer can go and order the arrest of the ICE officer. So, either everyone, both sides, are all in on it. Or, he didn't do anything wrong.

                      > > But if you try to run over the police. > She did not. It's very clear that she did not.

                      I think she did, the government thinks she did. And so does alot of other people. And they have alot more information than we do.

                      And ICE is still law enforcement, they have law enforcement powers. They are doing their job, and arresting people, who are here illegally. You don't magically wind up in America somehow without papers. You choose to come here, choose to break the laws. If I chose to go over the another country, and break their laws, I would be kicked out. You can look at Mexico, and they deport old Americans all the time. So does Thailand, kicking out a ton of British and American expats who abuse the system, and break the laws.

                • hikkerlan hour ago
                  [flagged]
              • jacquesm2 hours ago
                > I proudly stop terrorists, I proudly help law enforcement, and I proudly serve my country to make it the best in the world.

                And you're proudly delusional.

                But that's fine, stick your head in the sand and continue, you are so invested in this that the thought that you might be on the wrong side seems to scare you into flinging abuse and digging in deeper.

                The USA is not 'the best in the world', not by a long shot. Witness the turd sitting in the half demolished White House that you serve.

                > Anyways, I will be submitting a tip personally

                Haha, so you are now threatening to take revenge on someone you've never met because they're calling you out for exactly that sort of thing. I don't think I could have asked for harder proof.

                WTF dude, have you entirely lost it?

                • 2 hours ago
                  undefined
        • hikkerlan hour ago
          >But don't worry, we know exactly who you are.

          Wow, we're doing anti-semitic dog whistles in here now?

      • hsbauauvhabzb6 hours ago
        That implies a crime was committed. I think you’ll find people on HN fairly unsupportive of population wide surveillance. Getting a warrant from a judge is far better than ICE doing what they’re currently doing.
        • tokyobreakfast6 hours ago
          Unless of course that population wide surveillance pays $150k+/yr, with unlimited free snacks and gym membership, then all bets are off.
        • ryan_lane5 hours ago
          > I think you’ll find people on HN fairly unsupportive of population wide surveillance

          Lately I'm not sure that's the case.

      • 6 hours ago
        undefined
      • 6 hours ago
        undefined
  • stephantul6 hours ago
    This has bean a long time coming. This is a stark reminder that you should consider who the future stewards of whatever you are building might be.

    We built a vast surveillance network under the guise of servings ads and making money, and lost track of how this power could be abused by an entity not aligned with our own values.

    • ianbutler6 hours ago
      Don't lump me in that "we". I did no such thing. I know exactly how it could be abused and have spent 12 years intentionally not working for companies that perpetuate it.
      • stephantul5 hours ago
        Well I guess I mean the pubic in general. I also don’t necessarily mean willfully creating technology that can be abused.

        For example, we all stood by when we let Twitter and other US-based social media become the main way politicians communicate with the public. This has, in my opinion, had disastrous consequences on how they communicate and actively blocks politicians from achieving consensus.

        This is to say that you don’t need to have actively worked on something.

        • ianbutler5 hours ago
          I think that expecting the public to reason through the myriad n-order effects that were going to happen from the whiplash of technology in the last 30 years is a little much.

          However, I think a lot of people in tech could and did see those consequences coming and were pretty vocal about it. So, I don't think we all did stand by, we exercised what limited power we had. I don't want to seem accusatory here and I don't mean it harshly, but maybe you just didn't see the folks who have talked about problems like this.

          We also as individuals [without billions] have fairly limited capacity to directly act against these things. I donate a fair bit to the EFF for instance and I've sent outreach to representatives multiple times over the years for specific bills and when its possible I vote against surveillance.

          • stephantul3 hours ago
            You are right, I do acknowledge their efforts but did not do so here, which I should have.

            I don't necessarily mean to berate the public, but rather the politicians, who saw that they could use social media/big tech for their own personal gain, and the media, who went along with the narrative that putting all our public communication into privately owned platforms was good for democracy. And maybe our own governments and institutions (speaking from a EU perspective) for dropping the ball in protecting us.

            I think Evgeny Morozov's 2010-ish writing was prophetic in this regard.

    • potamic2 hours ago
      There was a narrative here earlier that I'd rather trust Google/Apple with my data than any other company or any government. The end result is the same in the end. When it comes to privacy, the only thing that works is zero trust.
    • fauchletenerum4 hours ago
      From day one everyone who worked on these ad-tech surveillance systems knew they had the capability for abuse. They were built to come as close as possible to the legal limits of surveillance and in several notable cases crossed that line. This isn't a surprise to anyone
      • tosapple3 hours ago
        The way I understand it, which may be dated: is that if it's automated or robotic it doesn't qualify as an "unreasonable search or seizure".
    • IhateAI5 hours ago
      It was always intended to be used that way, the programmatic advertising industry is a product of US Nat Sec.
    • s53006 hours ago
      [dead]
  • bilekas5 hours ago
    > Against that backdrop, ICE’s assertion that it is considering privacy expectations appears designed to reassure both policymakers and potential vendors that the agency is aware of the controversy surrounding commercial surveillance data.

    We can't seriously believe that this agency has any sense of respect for privacy right? They literally are going around thinking they don't need judicial warrants. I mean nobody's going to stop them using the purchased data however they want, but don't lie and say you'll be good with the privacy and care of the data.

    https://apnews.com/article/ice-arrests-warrants-minneapolis-...

    • trhway5 hours ago
      >They literally are going around thinking they don't need judicial warrants.

      Noem at the Senate hearing : "Well, habeas corpus is a constitutional right that the president has to be able to remove people from this country, and suspend their right to ..."

      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46832512

  • whatever15 hours ago
    It’s quite obvious that all of these seemingly paranoid about privacy, were not that paranoid after all.

    For the software builders the conclusion is that we should not store ANY identifiable data.

    • dmantis4 hours ago
      Exactly.

      While trying to degoogling, removing most proprietary software and use sandboxing for everything that's still needed as proprietary, you would often hear that stupid pro-surveillance thesis: "oh, what's wrong in someone trying to show you relevant things in the internet to buy by your interests?".

      Maybe now some people would think about it. That giving someone's leverage over youself is a ticking bomb until the actually scary people will use it as an advantage. That's humanity 101.

      Same about non-encrypted emails, cloud AI providers, SMS/real-identity based auth and 2fa, telemetry. The industry is full of trash and has to be revived from VC garbage.

    • michaelsshaw3 hours ago
      Please do not stop using our product. Download this proprietary app. You can't (legally) know what it does. Please download and execute it. Please don't google the FSF or EFF. Please.
  • kleiba4 hours ago
    I heard the new division of ICE that is implementing these investigations is called Government Ethics, Security & Transparency Agency for Public Operations, with some kind of acronym I couldn't quite hear.
  • Apreche6 hours ago
    This is why you must block all ads always. No exceptions.
    • entuno2 hours ago
      I've argued for a long time that adblocking isn't just a quality of life thing, it's an essential security control for browsing the Internet in the same way that patching your system and running malware protection is. I didn't expect it to be protecting your physical security quite so soon..

      This sort of thing should also help put the "adblocking is unethical" argument to bed.

    • Larrikin5 hours ago
      Do one better, block ads and give them false data on your profile using a solution like Ad Nauseam.
      • armadyl5 hours ago
        Ad Nauseam unironically gives ad networks massively more information and data points to track you than if you just straight up blocked the ads.
    • YetAnotherNick6 hours ago
      It's not about blocking ads, but blocking tracking. If you connect to internet you are being tracked even though you block known tracking URLs.

      e.g. Hacker news uses no tracking url but uses Cloudflare which tracks the user across sites for things like bot detection.

      • anonym295 hours ago
        • obsequiosity4 hours ago
          The prominent link there not protected by https redirects to the wikipedia page for "uphill battle"...who and why about that redirect is the question being posed perhaps but how alarmist do we want to be?
        • michaelsshaw3 hours ago
          I love your URL!
    • globalnode4 hours ago
      Not sure that blocks device ID tracking through timing metrics for example. You can turn off java but then you become a beacon of suspicious activity.
  • yanhangyhy3 hours ago
    It is really hard to understand that this is a country that our nation’s media and KOLs have vigorously whitewashed for decades. They say the United States protects private property, that America is free and democratic, and that everyone owns guns, so they can guarantee their own freedom.

    All of our people should feel ashamed of this—being deceived by the media day after day for decades. Too stupid. Even today, there are still many people who firmly believe it.

  • tgsovlerkhgsel3 hours ago
    In a way, this is a good thing. Hopefully it will draw the attention of other countries and make them realize how important it is to prevent such data hoards, and hopefully once the US has recovered they'll learn from it like the Germans did from the Stasi.

    Maybe California will even take it as an incentive to make proper privacy laws and impose it on anyone doing business in California in any way.

  • Refreeze52247 hours ago
    If you want to target a demographic, ask the experts.
  • ddxv4 hours ago
    If anyone else finds this stuff interesting I've off and on worked on an open source MMP to try and keep the functionality of ad tracking but move the data collection off of centralized hubs like AppsFlyer. I'd love to pick it back up if some people are interested in working together.

    https://github.com/openattribution

  • mmoustafa4 hours ago
    Why do all the discussion posts about ICE’s biometric app get taken down? Although they may invite politicing, they are very relevant to HN.

    e.g [flagged] Target director's Global Entry was revoked after ICE used app to scan her face [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46833871]

    • somenameforme3 hours ago
      Look at this topic in the meta-level. It has a relatively low number of upvotes, extremist comments being actively upvoted - with the current top post suggesting people engage in sabotage, with many if not most dissenting views ending up flagged. This isn't exactly a productive nor interesting topic, because people are more interested in attacking people and circle jerking, rather than engaging in any sort of interesting discussion. So it ends up reading like the typical slop on Reddit, which is essentially where discussion goes to die. It's not great seeing that sort of stuff here as well.
      • donkeybeeran hour ago
        What is "extremist" about "sabotage"? These are private companies and private individuals, they can choose whether to or not to interact with ICE. Unless its a part of some formal investigation there is nothing criminal or extreme about providing whatever data or response or lack thereof to them. Or do you not believe in freedom of association and free speech?
    • 3 hours ago
      undefined
    • saubeidl4 hours ago
      Digital brownshirts, using moderation tools as weapon to stifle discussion critical of the regime.
  • charcircuit4 hours ago
    I am all for government and private industry working together to keep the country safe and ensure our laws our efficiently enforced.
  • tvbusy3 hours ago
    Although this is quite a dark time, I hope ICE may finally (accidentally) do some good by making it super obvious to people how much online platforms track them.
  • trhway6 hours ago
    ICE got additional $80B over next 4 years in addition to the standard appropriations resulting in $28B budget for example in this year. That definitely gonna buy a lot of “market research”.
    • cluckindan4 hours ago
      For comparison, what is the cost of immigration?
      • trhway4 hours ago
        To whom? To the country losing people or to the country getting people? Like, what is the cost of Elon Musk immigration? And who bears that cost? And who enjoys the benefits of it?
  • tokyobreakfast6 hours ago
    This must be a real conundrum for the surveillance capitalist weekend 'resisters' who created this technology in the first place. "Oh, but it's not evil when we use it."
    • kybernetyk6 hours ago
      "It's my job - I just followed orders"
  • motbus3an hour ago
    Auschwiiiiitz

    Sorry I sneezed

  • globalnode4 hours ago
    I love this. All these years I've been a privacy enthusiast lunatic, because ofc no-one has anything to hide. Now ad trackers are being potentially weaponised by the govt, and ofc no-one could have foreseen that. This is absolute gold. Will be patiently waiting for recall install's to start sending screenshots to ice of your private documents and comm's.
    • tvbusy3 hours ago
      Someone please hint ICE that they can get a lot more data from AI companies. Asking what your rights are? Straight to jail.
  • throwfaraway1353 hours ago
    I'm against this type of surveillance everywhere, but seeing the holier than thou attitude of some of the comments rubs me the wrong way.

    Doing basically the same for people who are on the Epstein list was OK, but now it's wrong?

  • usernomdeguerre6 hours ago
    > ICE says it is attempting to better understand how commercial big data providers and advertising technology firms might directly support investigative activities, while remaining sensitive to “regulatory constraints and privacy expectations.”

    That's rich and i'll believe it when they respect the written law.

    To be clear, I fully expect other departments have been investigating these sorts of things in past and present, but ice have conducted themselves differently now and should be treated accordingly.

  • raverbashing5 hours ago
    Hey but who cares about cookies anyway right?
  • drivingmenuts5 hours ago
    They’re going from Brownshirt to Gestap to Stasi overnight.
  • anonym295 hours ago
    Don't forget - Microsoft, Google, Apple, Amazon, Oracle, etc are all proud partners of the US intelligence community, which includes DHS and ICE. When the NSA asked these companies to participate in an unconstitutional and unlawful program (as ruled by a federal judge) called PRISM, they didn't fight, they eagerly complied. They kept their compliance secret. They lied about it to citizens, to their users, to their customers, and even to congress. These are fundamentally untrustworthy entities, and there's no reason to believe they've changed and won't comply with secret DHS and ICE requests just like they did with secret NSA requests.

    Every dollar spent on AWS, Azure, GCP, Oracle Cloud, iPhones, Macbooks, Windows, Office, etc supports the widespread violation of rights committed against the innocent of all political and demographic backgrounds in the name of "national security".

    Know what doesn't? Open source operating systems, open source software, and self-hosting. Do the right thing, ditch the modern day equivalents of IBM collaborating with the enemies of freedom, human dignity, and human prosperity.

    • Symbiote4 hours ago
      And for Europeans or those in other countries: every dollar spent on these companies is supporting their support of Trump; that's against Greenland, NATO etc. For example, Microsoft donated $1M (IIRC) to Trump for Davos.

      At work we have stopped buying new American services, but there's been very little reduction of existing use.

      (Yet we did manage a policy stating we won't buy anything from Russia.)

    • michaelsshaw3 hours ago
      >Do the right thing, ditch the modern day equivalents of IBM collaborating with the enemies of freedom, human dignity, and human prosperity.

      I think it needs to go a bit further than that. We need names, for purposes of blacklisting but also future prosecution. Collaborators should not be tolerated.

      I'm sure it's not popular, but quite a few of our colleagues and fellow HN readers do belong in cells.

    • andsoitis4 hours ago
      What phone do you use?
      • roughly4 hours ago
        AND YET YOU PARTICIPATE IN SOCIETY
      • michaelsshaw3 hours ago
        Pixel 8 Pro with Graphene.
  • tosapple6 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • emodendroket6 hours ago
      I don't think there is really anything "woke" about wanting to sell products to people who speak Spanish but what do I know. What does this even have to do with the article?
      • tosapple6 hours ago
        First it's your nationality, then your language. Next maybe you're church or your music.

        Data is a liability, it's omnipresent. Permeating.

        • michaelsshaw5 hours ago
          Maximum incoherence. If English is your first language, please seek medical attention immediately.
    • pstuart6 hours ago
      [flagged]
  • uwagar5 hours ago
    if ICE is only removing illegal immigrants, they should of course be granted all tools to achieve those objectives.
    • donkeybeeran hour ago
      Of course, I propose ICE should have total view of all computers, phones and devices to aid them in their job. Begin by making yours public.
    • sham13 hours ago
      But why though? Why shouldn't they be restricted to only using the tools they're legally entitled to? And why shouldn't they be held in account when they act like the SA just because they're "enforcing immigration law"?
    • _DeadFred_3 hours ago
      ICE is normalizing police hiding behind masks. ICE is normalizing violating people's (hard fought and won in the Supreme Court) 1st amendment right to film the police, so that ICE can do their work in secret.

      ICE is using biometrics on people who have not broken any law, then saying the federal government will be doing whatever it can in its power to penalize those people now that they have been identified as doing... absolutely nothing illegal but stuff the impedes ICE's ability to operate in secret (among other things a violate of those people's due process rights).

      We don't do the whole 'secret police' thing in the USA, and we tend to get angry when the Government violates our Constitutional rights.

      • jacquesman hour ago
        The stormtroopers in Star Wars look like they do to be some kind of extreme in anonymous abuse of power. Their squeaky clean white exterior is literally a whitewash of that abuse. That's the one trick that ICE could still pull to complete the transition.
    • saubeidl4 hours ago
      But that's not what they're doing and you and I both know it.

      They're murdering political dissidents, they're kidnapping and torturing US citizens, they're terrorizing the streets.

    • orthecreedence4 hours ago
      [flagged]