182 pointsby ck23 hours ago7 comments
  • softwaredoug3 hours ago
    If these projects ultimately end up canceled they’ll be the largest “mostly done” infrastructure projects to be cancelled. A huge waste. And a monument to US incompetency.
    • kabdib36 minutes ago
      > incompetency

      "corruption"

      • threethirtytwo14 minutes ago
        The US is a monument to both corruption and incompetency. It's also a monument to freedom.

        China is the opposite. Less corruption because they're all executed under Xi now. Less incompetency because, I don't why. Less freedom for stuff like protesting or talking shit about the government online.

        Personally I prefer competency and less corruption over freedoms I have never excercised in my lifetime. Actually I've talked plenty of shit about the government but I don't mind losing this freedom.

        • elmomle4 minutes ago
          It's not a linear relationship where you trade one for the other. You don't just get a more competent government by giving up freedoms.
        • wbronitsky6 minutes ago
          I think parsing out what kind of freedom would help here. The US has a lot of “freedom of” but not a lot of “freedom from.”
        • tosapple7 minutes ago
          Wait until you live through what Argentina or Brasil have then see how you feel about redress, petition and speech.
          • threethirtytwo2 minutes ago
            I'm specifically talking about Chinas' lack of freedoms... which is entirely different then Brasil or Argentina.

            I don't have the freedom to own a gun in China, but it's safer in China to the point where you don't need a gun. Practically speaking I prefer to have less freedoms simply because you need less freedoms for society to function better AND most of these freedoms that are taken away by China are freedoms most people never exercise.

    • JumpCrisscrossan hour ago
      > A huge waste. And a monument to US incompetency

      But a windfall for the litigation financier that buys those claims off the U.S. government.

      These leases are contracts. Sovereign immunity is curtailed when the U.S. contracts.

    • bgroins2 hours ago
      Worse than the Superconducting Supercollider?
      • Retrican hour ago
        Yes far worse, the superconducting supercollider produced science which has debatable value. There’s an argument we lost nothing by canceling the project.

        Wind farms produce electricity which pays for the investment when you finish but pays nothing when a stop early. This makes stopping early extremely economically harmful.

        • watersban hour ago
          Esoteric programming language developed for the superconducting super collider, Glish, was picked up by the National Radio Astronomy Observatory, which used it well into the 2000s.

          Glish supported networked remote procedure calls, made then almost transparent to the program. Otherwise, Glish was roughly similar to Tcl or Lua.

          I don't know what other bits and pieces got salvaged from the SSC project.

        • willis93610 minutes ago
          The effective electricity rate in MA is already $0.37/kWh. How much further could it go?
          • _aavaa_4 minutes ago
            That’s joke right?
        • an hour ago
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      • xeonmc2 hours ago
        Or that space telescope?
    • toomuchtodo2 hours ago
      Well, judicial checks and balances should protect them until regime change, which is coming.
    • dyauspitr25 minutes ago
      GOP cronyism and deep corruption.
  • pjdesno3 hours ago
    In the 70s the oil companies were furious that Venezuela (if my understanding is correct) revoked their leases and forced them to abandon their equipment investments.

    That's basically what the administration was trying to do here, under a legal system which (unlike Venezuela in the 70s) is very keen on protecting corporate investment. It seems like a classic "takings" case.

    • fsckboy2 hours ago
      the Venezuelan oil leases you are talking about was 1990s, not 1970s.

      for Venezuelan oil leases to be comparable to wind farms you'd have to have the Venezuelan govt say "we are taking the leases away because we don't want any more offshore oil production", rather than "we are taking these leases away because you are rich and we want to pump the oil ourselves"

      the cancelled Venezuelan oil leases were a taking, but that word is less useful in the case of wind farms. I would imagine firms with wind farm contracts would be made whole (i.e. get back lost investment, but not get back potential profit) but it's not a case of the wind farms being given to somebody else or those areas being put to some other use.

      if you are "environmental" you might think it's a great loss not to pursue the wind approach, or that it's a great idea to shut down offshore drilling, but that's political not property ownership/taking.

    • unyttigfjelltol2 hours ago
      If the concern is the control module of the wind turbine— that’s not a nationalization and confiscation program. It might look similar in the near-term to participants, but that’s simply because they are functioning as instruments of the control module supplier, extending the inference, which isn’t a legitimate owner of the wind farms or US electrical grid anyway, and is quite unlike the fossil fuel companies in Venezuela of the 1970s.
  • ggm3 hours ago
    posted this at ars forum: (it should be clear I think it was a stupid move by the WH, but I am trying to think what might have "informed" it)

    Steelmanning the risks, its the link to mainland as a weakness in supply chain of power, compared to onshore sources possibly. But, the construction is in close water, well inside the exclusive economic zone. You would think passage of a craft capable of causing a power shock with an anchor chain was raising hackles well before this, because it's hugely unusual for a warcraft of another nation to be that close without an explicit permit. Under the Jones act, all inshore commercial craft delivering goods to and from named ports have to be US badged, for international shipping it's clear from the baltic there's a concrete risk, but that's a matter of policing the boats, not banning the structures at risk.

    A second steelman might be some belief about the intermittency. Thats easily knocked over because the system as a whole is building out storage and continuity systems, is adapting to a mix of technology with different power availability throughout the day, and of all the sources of power, wind is one of the most easily predicted to a useful window forward. You know roughly when a dunkelflaut is expected inside 48h, if you don't know exactly when, or for how long. Thats well north of the spin-up time for alternative (dirty) sources of power, if your storage capacity isn't there yet to handle it.

    • wattsoan hour ago
      The pretext for the suspension was radar noise.[1]

      [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/business/energy/trump-offshore-wind-...

      • ggman hour ago
        Thank you!
    • janice19993 hours ago
      US wind farms are 30 miles from the coast at most? No country is attacking that under some plausible deniability and it not being seen as an act of war.There are more important power lines further from civilisation running through rural areas in the US. These are not fiber cables a 1000 miles from the coast.

      Gas generators can be spun up to provide megawatts in seconds btw. With less than a quarter of the grid being renewable, intermittency is not an issue. Grids are built with resilience in mind (or at least should be...).

    • CGMthrowaway3 hours ago
      Treating offshore wind like ports and pipelines from a security POV makes sense, it's exactly what we do with offshore O&G. The rub is that securing offshore wind installations is an order of magnitude more resource-intensive than securing a deepwater rig, bc you're talking about a perimeter than spans 100's of square miles, not a single platform with a limited # of risers
      • defrost3 hours ago
        From an attack PoV that's hundreds of square miles to destroy or disable many structures Vs taking out a single target.

        ie. They can nibble a bit at an array before you're onto them Vs everything gets thrown at a point source target.

        • anonymousDan2 hours ago
          What about some kind of mass underwater drone attack? Feels like it might be feasible in the not too distant future...
          • ggm2 hours ago
            Is that especially simpler than e.g. an attack on the above ground cabling systems by firing carbon fibre conducting wires over them, as the US is said to have done in the Iraq war? Not that I don't think underwater drones are a future risk, but the belief its a risk which can't be mitigated, or a worse risk than ones which exist onshore, seems a bit weak.

            But none the less, yes. This would be a risk. Perhaps one which demands better drone detection and defence systems around wind turbines and O&G fields?

            • wombatpman hour ago
              Aluminized Mylar streamers is what was used to take down the grid in Balkans back in the 90’s
          • defrost2 hours ago
            Say that it is .. it's still hard to near simultaneously take out all wind generators than to mass swarm (with a smaller number) a single platform, well head grouping, or onshore processing facility.

            Recall the context - a field of many wind generators Vs one or two platforms in order to "take down" a state's power grid.

            Ropes are strong because of many strands.

          • ssl-32 hours ago
            That would seem like either an excellent way to start a new war, or a galactically stupid way to try to end one.
      • ggm3 hours ago
        If you wanted to defend an O&G field, wouldn't you need to consider a similar extent? per wellhead, yes. but the go to a concentrator for onshore feed don't they? or some kind of attached floating rig, which itself is a SPF.

        I thought fields had 100s of square km of extent too. The exclusion zone after nordstream is now pretty big, albiet "temporary" according to the web its 5 to 7 nm so 9 to 13 km so close to 100 km^2

        • CGMthrowawayan hour ago
          All of which are continually manned. Not so w/ offshore wind
      • mschuster9138 minutes ago
        > Treating offshore wind like ports and pipelines from a security POV makes sense

        No it does not. Even if you'd manage to disable an entire wind farm, the impact on the grid as a whole is negligible. An attacker has to spend a whole lot of effort on such an attack for very little, if any at all, gain.

        In contrast, shell a port or the right piece of infrastructure [1] and entire economies can get wrecked. And shell an oil rig... I mean, I seriously hope even the Russians don't sink that low but hey they did attack a goddamn NPP and a hydropower dam... anyway, taking out an oil rig risks an environmental disaster similar to Deepwater Horizon. That's a lot more effect for an opponent.

        The actual threat to wind farms is software. We've seen that in the early days of the Russian invasion of Ukraine - the Russians took down satellite modems [2], causing about 6000 wind turbines to lose their command infrastructure and thus stop generating power.

        [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Scott_Key_Bridge_colla...

        [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viasat_hack

    • aqme28an hour ago
      I think that wind farms dotted along the entire US coast would be a bad target for crippling US power compared to a few coal/gas/nuclear mega power plants.
    • kentm3 hours ago
      I appreciate the sentiment behind steelmanning but Trump has had over a decade of publicaly, vocally hating windmills because some were built too close to his golf course. See https://www.npr.org/2013/07/01/196352470/thar-he-blows-trump...

      Its completely in-line with his personality to hold onto personal grievances for decades to the point that they become policy.

      • ggm3 hours ago
        The Judges appear to have responded to something specific. If it was made-up, they would have thrown the case out harder and sanctioned whoever submitted false evidence. So I assume somebody with an ability to legally bind intel into the right form was persuaded to say something.
        • duskwuff2 hours ago
          Perhaps the objection started out with something fundamentally irrational or opinion-based, and someone was ordered to "reverse-engineer" an objection out of that which wasn't trivially refutable - e.g. "the noise from the turbines will keep our submarine sonar from working" or "reports say that human smugglers are hiding aboard the windmills" or whatever.
          • ggm2 hours ago
            Yes, I think thats very plausible. "inshore defense operations in an area of strategic importance will be excessively impeded by both development of this site, and future operations in ways which <REDACTED>" type thing.
        • maxerickson3 hours ago
          In the quote in the article there, the one judge responds to something specific by calling it "irrational".
      • defrost3 hours ago
        This is very much a root cause.

        Not just the fact that Scottish wind farms prevailed, also that he was relentlessly mocked, ridiculed, and protested against in unavoidably visible ways by the Scots.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NNWmZwObZc

        ( Note: while a recent youtube clip, the anti Trump protests in Scotland date back to well before his campaign for his first term as POTUS )

        • an hour ago
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    • lovichan hour ago
      Weird how these security risks only show up to tank projects in blue states
  • aussieguy123412 minutes ago
    Trump banning offshore wind projects is why oil and gas workers vote for him.

    The only way they can keep their jobs working on vastly inferior, dangerous technology is to ban new, safer, better technology.

    • defrost2 minutes ago
      The reality, of course, being that wind farm construction is big on labour, specialist transport machinery, crane operating, jacking, bolts, working to weather extreme thresholds, etc.

      Different as from a distance but still a lot of applicable skill and team work experience transfer for many workers.

  • einpoklum3 hours ago
    Judge: "Why were these projects put on hold?"

    Government lawyers: "Uh, well, we could tell you, but then we'd have to kill you."

    Now, I would point out how the US is making itself into a joke, but I'm afraid the joke's on us, because carbon output is not decreasing dramatically like it must, and the effects of global warming will, slowly but surely, become worse with every passing year. I live in a region where warming is predicted to be near twice the global average, so I'm particularly worried about what it's going to be like when I'm old, or in the generation following mine.

  • sandworm1012 hours ago
    I am all for green energy, but these windfarms were designed years ago. Since then, solar has progressed in leaps whereas wind has not. Im not so sure that fighting the olds over wind farms is the fight worth winning. Let them cancel the wind farms if that means a free hand to develop solar.
    • ianburrell2 hours ago
      Solar and wind are good complements. Solar works during the day and best on clear, windless days. Wind blows best during the night and on cloudy, stormy days. Solar is best in summer and wind in winter.

      Wind also works better in some areas that don't have solar. UK has a lot of offshore wind, but less solar. The US Northeast has a lot of wind but lags behind on solar.

      Wind has dropped significantly in price over the decades and is competitive in price with solar. I saw article about early Scottish wind farm being upgraded so that one new turbine equals the whole old farm.

      • sandworm101an hour ago
        I theory yes, but grid storage favors solar. Solar can be placed much closer to consumption, literally on the roof of the consumer. Wind exists in large farms away from cities. They are not perfect partners.

        The rich/old paticularly hate wind because they do not like looking at it. (The link to golf courses is not by accident. Wind farms and golf course tend to appear together due to them both gravitating towards areas with shallow waters.) We still here stories about blinking shadows interupting sleep cycles, even causing cancer. So perhaps we let them alone for another decade and allow solar+storage to take up the slack. Then, when the nimby people are no longer in power, we bring back wind.

        (Shallow sea means no commercial traffic/ports. That means cheap land for non-industrial things like yacht clubs and big houses, which give rise to golf courses. So the rich/old dont like seeing the wind farms that, inevitably, want to live just offshore of their yacht/golf clubs. See Nantuket.)

    • Rapzid2 hours ago
      Whether or not these wind farms are economically viable sounds like something for the companies building them to work out.
      • monero-xmr2 hours ago
        They are 100% not viable without tax dollars
        • bronsonan hour ago
          Neither is petroleum, nuclear, or the highway system. What's your point?
          • monero-xmr25 minutes ago
            Wind is the worst of all, otherwise the UK would have the cheapest energy in the West, instead of the highest
    • malfist2 hours ago
      You don't appear to be "all for green energy" if you want to prohibit some forms of green energy. In fact that appears to be the stance of someone who opposes green energy
    • leosussanan hour ago
      That definitely won't be what they're using that free hand for, unfortunately. I wish it weren't true, but the Republican party is sticking to its blanket opposition to anything that isn't fossil-fuel related. Add it to the growing list of stuff to be annoyed / angry about.
    • aspbee5552 hours ago
      solar only runs during the day and when it is not cloudy, wind farms can run constantly with low weather impact

      multiple energy sources are what is important to make up for where solar falls short. sure solar is amazing, but it will never replace everything on its own

      • anon70002 hours ago
        Solar + battery is good enough & cheap enough (and recyclable enough). But agreed that multiple renewable energy sources aren’t a bad thing!

        Solar + battery is just so good at staying stable and productive for decades with no moving parts, minimal maintenance, and unbeatable scalability

        • Rapzid2 hours ago
          The market realities don't pan out. Texas has a huge and diversified renewable energy sector. Wind was supplying nearly 45% of energy capacity last night, with solar providing close to 57% during its peak yesterday. Power storage discharge peaked around 13% and it's typically only used to round out capacity in the early morning and evening when peak demand coincides with low solar generation...

          https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards

          And that's in Texas where there is tons of sun and wind. I would imagine markets where wind, and in particular off shore wind, could make a lot more sense compared to attempting 100% solar generation. If I had to wager, maybe where they are building offshore wind generation..

    • tzs2 hours ago
      It doesn't mean a free hand to develop solar. The Trump administration hates solar, too, and is doing as much as it can to hinder solar development.

      Also, wind and solar have different production patterns, such as how they perform seasonally, how weather affects them, and how they perform at different times of day. You are much better off including a good mix of them in your system.

    • Analemma_2 hours ago
      What olds? The shutdown here was ostensibly for national security reasons.

      > Let them cancel the wind farms if that means a free hand to develop solar.

      That's not actually a bargain anyone has the power to agree to in a binding way. The people protesting the appearance of wind farms are on the coasts, the people protesting solar are in the country's interior. There's no "deal" you can make to get the latter instead of the former. Just build all the power generation and then we'll have cheaper electricity and a more resilient grid.

  • petcat2 hours ago
    3 more years. I don't know who the Dems can elect to go against JD Vance, maybe Tim Walz, but they need somebody.
    • shagiean hour ago
      > maybe Tim Walz

      https://www.uppermichiganssource.com/2026/01/29/tim-walz-say...

      > MINNEAPOLIS (Gray News) - Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz said he will not run for elected office again.

      > Walz touched on his political plans in a recent interview with cable news channel MS Now.

      > “I will never run for an elected office again,” Walz said. “Never again.”

      > The 2024 Democratic vice-presidential nominee said he plans to “do the work” while finding other ways to serve the country.

    • aaronbrethorst2 hours ago
      There'll be a ton of people running, any of which I think would be highly competitive against Vance: Walz, Pritzker, Newsom, Chris Murphy, Harris, Josh Shapiro, etc.

      But I think Mark Kelly is likely to be a top-tier candidate from the jump. He's not my favorite of the bunch, necessarily, but I'd consider putting money on him being the Democratic nominee in 2028.

    • zthrowaway2 hours ago
      3 more years til the next dog and pony show but different colors.
      • mschuster9129 minutes ago
        The midterms this year can already seriously throw wrenches into the Project 2025 plans. Trump's failure to address the economy situation, the constant and ongoing wars, ICE seriously disrupting agriculture and construction sites, ICE executing white people in front of cameras [1] and now the latest Epstein crap... Democrats are flipping what used to be solid-red seats these days.

        People are fed up. Assuming there will be free elections - as absurd as it is to even write this sentence referring to the US, but here we are [2] - it most probably will end in an utter wipeout for MAGA. They'll have the President, of course, but assuming the Democrat leadership finds some spine - again, an assumption, given Schumer - stuff has the potential to change.

        On top of that are state and local level elections that are all the time. Stuff like school boards, sheriffs, whatever that is where MAGA and the Evangelicals built out their initial networks. All of that can be flipped around as well, if people actually bother to show up and vote.

        [1] See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shootings_by_U.S._immi... - it is notable that widespread outrage only followed after the execution of Renee Good and Alex Pretti

        [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/feb/02/georgia-fult...

    • toomuchtodo2 hours ago
      Pritzker.
    • actionfromafar2 hours ago
      A wet towel could go against JD Vance, but what if Vance shutters polling stations in blue districts? Because "terrorism".
      • carefulfungi14 minutes ago
        Weird to see this so downvoted on the same day that Trump asked republicans to "Nationalize" elections in 15 places. Whatever that means.

        > “Republicans should say, ‘We want to take control of this. We need to take control of voting in at least 15 places.’ Republicans should nationalize voting,” [Trump] said on the podcast of former FBI deputy director Dan Bongino, which was relaunched on Monday.