63 pointsby martinald4 hours ago18 comments
  • danpalmer2 hours ago
    I've noticed a huge gap between AI use on greenfield projects and brownfield projects. The first day of working on a greenfield project I can accomplish a week of work. But the second day I can accomplish a few days of work. By the end of the first week I'm getting a 20% productivity gain.

    I think AI is just allowing everyone to speed-run the innovator's dilemma. Anyone can create a small version of anything, while big orgs will struggle to move quickly as before.

    The interesting bit is going to be whether we see AI being used in maturing those small systems into big complex ones that account for the edge cases, meet all the requirements, scale as needed, etc. That's hard for humans to do, and particularly while still moving. I've not see any of this from AI yet outside of either a) very directed small changes to large complex systems, or b) plugins/extensions/etc along a well define set of rails.

    • orwinan hour ago
      Yeah, my observation is that for my usual work, I can maybe get a 20% productivity boot, probably closer to 10% tbh, and for the whole team overall productivity it feels like it has done nothing, as senior use their small productivity gains to fix the tons of issues in PR (or in prod when we miss something).

      But last week I had two days where I had no real work to do, so I created cli tools to help with organisation, and cleaning up, I think AI boosted my productivity at least 200%, if not 500.

    • EnPissantan hour ago
      I have experienced much of the opposite. With an established code base to copy patterns from, AI can generate code that needs a lot less iteration to clean up than on green fields projects.
      • cortesoft10 minutes ago
        I solve this problem by pointing Claude at existing code bases when I start a project, and tell it to use that approach.
      • danpalmer17 minutes ago
        That's a fair observation, there's probably a sweet spot. The difference I've found is that I can reliably keep the model on track with patterns through prompting and documentation if the code doesn't have existing examples, whereas I can't document every single nuance of a big codebase and why it matters.
    • data-ottawa2 hours ago
      It’s fantastic to be able to prototype small to medium complexity projects, figure what architects work and don’t, then build on a stable foundation.

      That’s what I’ve been doing lately, and it really helps get a clean architecture at the end.

      • johnrob2 hours ago
        I’ve done this in pure Python for a long time. Single file prototype that can mostly function from the command line. The process helps me understand all the sub problems and how they relate to each other. Best example is when you realize behaviors X, Y, and Z have so much in common that it makes sense to have a single component that takes a parameter to specify which behavior to perform. It’s possible that already practicing this is why I feel slightly “meh” compared to others regarding GenAI.
  • defrost3 hours ago
    The "upside" description:

      On the other you have a non-technical executive who's got his head round Claude Code and can run e.g. Python locally.
    
      I helped one recently almost one-shot converting a 30 sheet mind numbingly complicated Excel financial model to Python with Claude Code.
    
      Once the model is in Python, you effectively have a data science team in your pocket with Claude Code. You can easily run Monte Carlo simulations, pull external data sources as inputs, build web dashboards and have Claude Code work with you to really integrate weaknesses in your model (or business). It's a pretty magical experience watching someone realise they have so much power at their fingertips, without having to grind away for hours/days in Excel.
    
    almost makes me physically sick.

    I've a reasonably intense math background corrupted by application to geophysics and implementing real world numerical applications.

    To be fair, this statement alone:

    * 30 sheet mind numbingly complicated Excel financial model

    makes my skin crawl and invokes a flight reflex.

    Still, I'll concede that a Claude Code conversion to Python of a 30 sheet Excel financial model is unlikely to be significantly worse than the original.

    • majormajor2 hours ago
      One of the dirty secrets of a lot of these "code adjacent" areas is that they have very little testing.

      If a data science team modeled something incorrectly in their simulation, who's gonna catch it? Usually nobody. At least not until it's too late. Will you say "this doesn't look plausible" about the output? Or maybe you'll be too worried about getting chided for "not being data driven" enough.

      If an exec tells an intern or temp to vibecode that thing instead, then you definitely won't have any checkpoints in the process to make sure the human-language prompt describing process was properly turned into the right simulation. But unlike in coding, you don't have a user-facing product that someone can click around in, or send requests to, and verify. Is there a test suite for the giant excel doc? I'm assuming no, maybe I'm wrong.

      It feels like it's going to be very hard for anyone working in areas with less black-and-white verifiability or correctness like that sort of financial modeling.

      • tharkun__2 hours ago
        This is a pet peeve of mine at work.

        Any and I mean any statistic someone throws at me I will try and dig in. And if I'm able to, I will usually find that something is very wrong somewhere. As in, the underlying data is usually just wrong, invalidating the whole thing or the data is reasonably sound but the person doing the analysis is making incorrect assumptions about parts of the data and then drawing incorrect conclusions.

        • aschla2 hours ago
          It seems to be an ever-present trait of modern business. There is no rigor, probably partly because most business professionals have never learned how to properly approach and analyze data.

          Can't tell you how many times I've seen product managers making decisions based on a few hundred analytics events, trying to glean insight where there is none.

        • defrostan hour ago
          I've frequently found, over a few decades, that numerical systems are cyclically 'corrected' until results and performance match prior expectations.

          There are often more errors. Sometimes the actual results are wildly different in reality to what a model expects .. but the data treatment has been bug hunted until it does what was expected .. and then attention fades away.

    • decimalenough2 hours ago
      I'm almost certain it will be significantly worse.

      The Excel sheet will have been tuned over the years by people who knew exactly what it was doing and fixed countless bugs along the way.

      The Claude Code copy will be a simulacrum that may behave the same way with some inputs, but is likely to get many of edge cases wrong, and, when you're talking about 30 sheets of Excel, there will be many, many of these sharp edges.

      • defrost2 hours ago
        I won't disagree - I suffered from insufficient damning praise in my last sentence above.

        IMHO, earned through years of bleeding eyeballs, the first will be riddled with subtle edge cases curiously patched and fettled such that it'll limp through to the desired goal .. mostly.

        The automated AI assisted transcoding will be ... interesting.

    • ChrisMarshallNY2 hours ago
      Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1667/
  • decimalenough3 hours ago
    > I helped one recently almost one-shot[3] converting a 30 sheet mind numbingly complicated Excel financial model to Python with Claude Code.

    I'm sure Claude Code will happily one-shot that conversion. It's also virtually guaranteed to have messed up vital parts of the original logic in the process.

    • linsomniac2 hours ago
      It depends on how easily testable the Excel is. If Claude has the ability to run both the Excel and the Python with different inputs, and check the outputs, it's stunningly likely to be able to one-shot it.
      • AlotOfReading2 hours ago
        Something being simultaneously described as a "30 sheet, mind-numbingly complex Excel model" and "testable" seems somewhat unlikely, even before we get into whether Claude will be able to test such a thing before it runs into context length issues. I've seen Claude hallucinate running test suites before.
        • martinald2 hours ago
          It compacted at least twice but continued with no real issues.

          Anyway, please try it if you find it unbelievable. I didn't expect it to work FWIW like it did. Opus 4.5 is pretty amazing at long running tasks like this.

          • moregrist2 hours ago
            I think the skepticism here is that without tests or a _lot_ of manual QA how would you know that it did it correctly?

            Maybe you did one or the other , but “nearly one-shotted” doesn’t tend to mean that.

            Claude Code more than occasionally likes to make weird assumptions, and it’s well known that it hallucinates quite a bit more near the context length, and that compaction only partially helps this issue.

          • stavros2 hours ago
            I generally agree with you, but I tried to get it to modernize a fairly old SaaS codebase, and it couldn't. It had all the code right there, all it had to do was change a few lines, upgrade a few libraries, etc, but it kept getting lots of things wrong. The HTML was wrong, the CSS was completely missing, basic views wouldn't work, things like that.

            I have no idea why it had so much trouble with this generally easy task. Bizarre.

      • martinald2 hours ago
        That's exactly what it did (author here).
        • majormajor2 hours ago
          I'm having trouble reconciling "30 sheet mind numbingly complicated Excel financial model" and "Two or three prompts got it there, using plan mode to figure out the structure of the Excel sheet, then prompting to implement it. It even added unit tests to the Python model itself, which I was impressed with!"

          "1 or 2 plan mode prompts" to fully describe a 30-sheet complicated doc suggests a massively higher level of granularity than Opus initial plans on existing codebases give me or a less-than-expected level of Excel craziness.

          And the tooling harnesses have been telling the models to add testing to things they make for months now, so why's that impressive or suprising?

          • martinald2 hours ago
            No it didn't make a giant plan of every detail. It made a plan of the core concepts and then when it was in implementation mode it kept checking the excel file to get more info. It took around ~30 mins in implementation mode to build it.

            I was impressed because the prompt didn't ask it to do that. It doesn't normally add tests for me without asking, YMMV.

            • majormajor2 hours ago
              Ah, I see.

              Did it build a test suite for the Excel side? A fuzzer or such?

              It's the cross-concern interactions that still get me.

              80% of what I think about these days when writing software is how to test more exhaustively without build times being absolute shit (and not necessarily actually being exhaustive anyway).

      • datsci_est_2015an hour ago
        And also - who understands the system now? Does anyone know Python at this shop? Is it someone’s implicit duty to now learn Python, or is the LLM now the de facto interface for modifying the system?

        When shit hits the fan and execs need answers yesterday, will they jump to using the LLM to probabilistically make modifications to the system, or will they admit it was a mistake and pull Excel back up to deterministically make modifications the way they know how?

    • Spivak2 hours ago
      Doesn't it help you sleep at night that your 401k might be managed by analysts #yoloing their financial modeling tools with an LLM?
  • simmerup3 hours ago
    Terrifying that people are creating financial models with AI when they don’t have the skills to verify the model does what they expect
    • martinald3 hours ago
      They have an excel sheet next to it - they can test it against that. Plus they can ask questions if something seems off and have it explain the code.
      • AlotOfReading2 hours ago
        I'm not sure being able to verify that it's vaguely correct really solves the issue. Consider how many edge cases inhabit a "30 sheet, mind-numbingly complicated" Excel document. Verifying equivalence sounds nontrivial, to put it mildly.
      • lmm2 hours ago
        > They have an excel sheet next to it - they can test it against that.

        It used to be that we'd fix the copy-paste bugs in the excel sheet when we converted it to a proper model, good to know that we'll now preserve them forever.

      • karlgkk3 hours ago
        [flagged]
        • yomismoaqui3 hours ago
          You would be surprised at the volume of money made by businesses supported by Excel.
          • martinald3 hours ago
            Yes. I suspect there are thousands of Excel files that "process" >$1bn/yr out there.
    • nebula88042 hours ago
      All we need is one major crash caused by AI to scare the capital owners. Then maybe us white collar workers can breath a bit for at least another few more years(maybe a decade+).
      • danielbln7 minutes ago
        A decade+ is wishful copium.
    • myfakebadcode2 hours ago
      I’m trying to learn rust coming from python (for fun). I use various LLM for python and see it stumble.

      It is a beautiful experience to realize wtf you don’t know and how far over their skis so many will get trusting AI. The idea of deploying a rust project at my level of ability with an AI at the helm is is terrifying.

    • taneq36 minutes ago
      If they have the skills to verify the Excel model then they can apply the same approach to the numbers produced by the AI-generated model, even if they can’t inspect it directly.

      In my experience a lot of Excel models aren’t really tested, just checked a bit and them deemed correct.

    • derrida2 hours ago
      Business as usual.
    • mkoubaa2 hours ago
      It's not terrifying at all, some shops will fail and some will succeed and in the aggregate it'll be no different for the rest of us
    • fatheranton3 hours ago
      [dead]
  • wrs2 hours ago
    Some minor editing to how this would have been written in the mid-1980s:

    “The real leaps are being made organically by employees, not from a top down [desktop PC] strategy. Where I see the real productivity gains are small teams deciding to try and build a [Lotus 123] assisted workflow for a process, and as they are the ones that know that process inside out they can get very good results - unlike a [mainframe] software engineering team who have absolutely zero experience doing the process that they are helping automate.”

    The embedded “power users” show the way, then the CIO-friendly packaged software follows much later.

  • smuhakg2 hours ago
    > On one hand, you have Microsoft's (awful) Copilot integration for Excel (in fairness, the Gemini integration in Google Sheets is also bad). So you can imagine financial directors trying to use it and it making a complete mess of the most simple tasks and never touching it again.

    Microsoft has spent 30 years designing the most contrived XML-based format for Excel/Word/Powerpoint documents, so that it cannot be parsed except by very complicated bespoke applications with hundreds of developers involved.

    Now, it's impossible to export any of those documents into plain text that an LLM can understand, and Microsoft Copilot literally doesn't work no matter how much money they throw at it. My company is now migrating Word documents to Markdown because they're seeing how powerful AI is.

    This is karmic justice imo.

    • QuantumGood2 hours ago
      Tim Berners-Lee thought pages would become machine-readable long ago, with "obvious" benefits, and that idea partly drove XML, RDF and HTML 5. Now the benefit of doing so seems even bigger (but are they?), and the time spent making existing documents AI readable seems to keep growing.
    • martinald2 hours ago
      Totally agree, though ironically Claude code works way better with Excel than I expected.

      I even tried telling Copilot to convert each sheet to a CSV on one attempt THEN do calculations. It just ignored it and failed miserably, ironically outputting me a list of files that it should have made, along with the broken python script. I found this very amusing.

  • s-lambert3 hours ago
    I don't see a divergence, from what I can tell a lot of people have only just started using agents in the past 3-4 months when they got good enough that it was hard to say otherwise. Then there's stuff like MCP, which never seemed good and was entirely driven by people who talked more about it than used it. There also used to be stuff like langchain or vector databases that nobody talks about anymore, maybe they're still used but they're not trendy anymore.

    It seems way too soon to really narrow down any kind of trends after a few months. Most people aren't breathlessly following the next twitter trend, give it at least a year. Nobody is really going to be left behind if they pick up agents now instead of 3 months ago.

    • neom2 hours ago
      Not sure how much falling behind there is even going to be, I'm an old school linux type with D- programming skills, yet getting going building things has been ridiculously easy. The swarms thing makes is so fast. I've churned 2 small but tested apps out in 2 weekends just chatting with claude code, the only thing I had to do was configure the servers.
  • tiangewu16 minutes ago
    Microsoft's failure around copilot in Excel gave my partner a very poor impression on AI's ability to help with financial tasks.

    It took a lot of convincing, but I finally got her to start using ChatGPT to help her write SQL and walk her through setting up some SaaS accounting software formulas.

    It worked so well now she's trying to find more applications at work. Claude code is too scary for her though. That will need to be in some Web UI before she feels comfortable giving it a try.

  • datsci_est_201531 minutes ago
    Thought this was going to be more about programmers, but it was actually about non technical users and Microsoft’s product development failure.

    One tidbit I’d disagree with is that only those using the bleeding edge AI tools are reaping the benefits. There seem to be a lot of highly specialized tools and a lot of specific configurations (and mystical incantations) to get them to work, and those are constantly changing and being updated. The bleeding edge is a dangerous place to be if you value your time (and sanity).

    Personally, as someone working on moderate-to-highly complex software (live inference of industrial IoT data), I can’t really open a merge / pull request for my colleagues to review unless I 100% understand what I’ve pushed, and can explain to them as well.

    My killer app for AI would just be a CLI that gets me to a commit based on moderately technical input:

    “Add this configuration variable for this entry point; split this class into two classes, one for each of the responsibilities that are currently crammed together; update the unit tests to reflect these changes, including splitting the tests for the old class into two different test classes; etc”

    But, all the hype of the bleeding edge is around abstracting away the entire coding process until you don’t even understand what code is being generated? Hard to see it as anything but a pipe dream. AI is useful, but it’s not a panacea - you can’t fire it and replace it when it fucks up.

    • georgeburdell2 minutes ago
      “Add this configuration variable for this entry point; split this class into two classes, one for each of the responsibilities that are currently crammed together; update the unit tests to reflect these changes, including splitting the tests for the old class into two different test classes; etc”

      Granted I'm way behind the curve, but is this not how actual engineers (and not influencers) are using it? I heavily micro-manage the implementation because my manager still expects me to know the code

  • ed_mercer3 hours ago
    > Microsoft itself is rolling out Claude Code to internal teams

    Seems like Nadella is having his Baller moment

    • running1012 hours ago
      Code red moment
    • fdsf23 hours ago
      Nothing but ego frankly. Apple had no problem settling for a small market share back in the day... look where they are now. It didnt come from make-believe and fantasy scenarios of the future based on an unpredictable technology.
  • with2 hours ago
    > The bifurcation is real and seems to be, if anything, speeding up dramatically. I don't think there's ever been a time in history where a tiny team can outcompete a company one thousand times its size so easily.

    Slightly overstated. Tiny teams aren't outcompeting because of AI, they're outcompeting because they aren't bogged down by decades of technical debt and bureaucracy. At Amazon, it will take you months of design, approvals, and implementation to ship a small feature. A one-man startup can just ship it. There is still a real question that has to be answered: how do you safely let your company ship AI-generated code at scale without causing catastrophic failures? Nobody has solved this yet.

  • doom2an hour ago
    I guess this is as good a thread as any to ask what the current meta is for agentic programming (in my case, as applied to data engineering). There are all these posts that make it to the front page talking about productivity gains but very few of them actually detail the setup that's working for the author, just which model is best.

    I guess it's like asking for people's vim configs, but hey, there are at least a few popular posts mainly around git/vim/terminal configs.

    • energy12321 minutes ago
      I push most work into chat interface (attach full codebase as a single file, paste in specs, describe what I want), then copy the tasklist from chat into codex. This is to reduce codex token usage to avoid breaching weekly limits. I'd use a more agent-heavy process if I didn't care about cost.
  • drsalt2 hours ago
    what is the source data? the author says they've seen "far more non-technical people than I'd expect using Claude Code in terminal" so like, 3 people? who are these people?
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  • DavidPiper2 hours ago
    > To really underline this, Microsoft itself is rolling out Claude Code to internal teams, despite (obviously) having access to Copilot at near zero cost, and significant ownership of OpenAI. I think this sums up quite how far behind they are

    I think it sums up how thoroughly they've been disrupted, at least for coding AIs (independent of like-for-like quality concerns rightly mentioned elsewhere in this thread re: Excel/Python).

    I understand ChatGPT can do like a million other things, but so can Claude. Microsoft deliberately using competitors internally is the thing that their customers should pay attention to. Time to transform "Nobody gets fired for buying Microsoft" into "Nobody gets fired for buying what Microsoft buy", for those inclined.

  • Havoc3 hours ago
    The copilot button in excel at my work can’t access the excel file of the window it’s in. As in “what’s in cell A1” and it says I can’t read this file. Not even sure what the point is then frankly.

    I’m happily vibe coding at work but yeah article is right. MS has enterprise market share by default not by merit. Stunning contrast between what’s possible and what’s happening in big corp

    • bwat492 hours ago
      yeah I actually use AI a lot, but copilot is... useless. When microsoft adds copilot to their various apps they don't seem to put any thought/effort behind it beyond sticking a copilot button somewhere.

      And if the copilot button does nothing but open a chat window without any real integration with the app, what the hell is the point of that when there's already a copilot button in the windows taskbar?

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    • cmrdporcupine3 hours ago
      Meanwhile the people I know who work at Microsoft say there's a constant whip-cracking to connect everything they're doing to "AI" and prove that's what they're doing.
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  • superkuh3 hours ago
    The argument seems to be that having a corporation restrict your ability to present arbitrary text directly to the model and only being able to go through their abstract interface which will integrate your text into theirs (hopefully) is more productive than fully controlling the input text to a model. I don't think that's true generally. I think it can be true when you're talking about non-technical users like the article is.
    • majormajor3 hours ago
      The use of specialization of interfaces is apparent if you compare Photoshop with Gemini Pro/Nano Banana for targeted image editing.

      I can select exactly where I want changes and have targeted element removal in Photoshop. If I submit the image and try to describe my desired changes textually, I get less easily-controllable output. (And I might still get scrambled text, for instance, in parts of the image that it didn't even need to touch.)

      I think this sort of task-specific specialization will have a long future, hard to imagine pure-text once again being the dominant information transfer method for 90% of the things we do with computers after 40 years of building specialized non-text interfaces.

      • duskwuff2 hours ago
        One reasonable niche application I've seen of image models is in real estate, as a way to produce "staged" photos of houses without shipping in a bunch of furniture for a photo shoot (and/or removing a current tenant's furniture for a clean photo). It has to be used carefully to avoid misrepresenting the property, of course, but it's a decent way of avoiding what is otherwise a fairly toilsome and wasteful process.
        • majormajor2 hours ago
          This sort of thing (not for real estate, but for "what would this furniture actually look like in this room) is definitely somewhere the open-ended interface is fantastic vs targeted-remove in Photoshop (but could also easily be integrated into a Photoshop-like tool to let me be more specific about placement and such).

          I was a bit surprised by how it still resulted in gibberish text on posters in the background in an unaffected part of the image that at first glance didn't change at all. So even just the "masking" ability of like "anything outside of this range should not be touched" of a GUI would be a godsend.

      • fdsf23 hours ago
        It behooves me that Gemini et al dont have these standard video editing tools. Do the engineers seriously think prompting by text is the way people want videos to be generated? Nope. People want to customise. E.g. Check out capcut in the context of social media.

        Ive been trying to create a quick and dirty marketing promo via an LLM to visualise how a product will fit into the world of people - it is incredibly painful to 'hope and pray' that by refining the prompt via text you can make slight adjustments come through.

        The models are good enough if you are half-decent at prompting and have some patience. But given the amount invested, I would argue they are pretty disappointing. Ive had to chunk the marketing promo into almost a frame-by-frame play to make it somewhat work.

        • suprstarrd2 hours ago
          Speaking as someone who doesn't like the idea of AI art so take my words with a grain of salt, but my theory is that this input method exclusivity is intentional on their part, for exactly the reason you want the change. If you only let people making AI art communicate what they want through text or reference attachments (the latter of which they usually won't have), then they have to spend time figuring out how to put it into words. It IS painful to ask for those refinements, because any human would clearly understands it. In the end, those people get to say that they spent hours, days, or weeks refining "their prompt" to get a consistent and somewhat-okay looking image; the engineers get to train their AI to better understand the context of what someone is saying; and all the while the company gets to further legitimize a false art form.