54 pointsby bobbiechen6 hours ago12 comments
  • Nevermark33 minutes ago
    Personalized ad targeting and personalized pricing are both predicated on mass surveillance and then leveraging that for manipulation. Both sides of that toxic combination are compounded in significance due to severe two-way centralization of those markets.

    The result is leverage pervasively used to select information competitive with customer value. And also used to drain margins from ad buyers and all upstream economic input.

    People complain endlessly about the downside to surveillance and personalized manipulation, but don't seem to have an appetite for more than that.

    I view the centralization, surveillance and manipulation as all ethical problems, because they all involve negative externalities (weaponizing unpermissioned or dark-permissioned information, manipulating people based on their past behaviors and characteristics, and bleeding product providers).

    Scalable ethical problems that pay, are not resolved by any means that don't resolve the ethics with economics. I.e. law or hard regulation, backed up by considerable fines ensuring risk-reward losses for perpetrators, and criminal charges for serious or repeat offenders.

    Given the tremendous centralization and privacy violations, the problem is orders of magnitude worse than normal price fixing.

  • cortesoft3 hours ago
    There was an article about targeted advertising a number of years that really changed my perspective on it called, "Targeted Advertising Considered Harmful": https://zgp.org/targeted-advertising-considered-harmful/

    The basic idea is that the real value in advertising is as a signaling mechanism, and targeted advertising removes most of that signal.

    I feel like personalized pricing has some of the same issues, in that it erodes consumer trust and makes it more and more difficult for consumers to confidently spend their money in the market. I am not sure how we fix the problem, though, because it is a collective action problem; any individual company will need to use personalized pricing to compete, but that behavior will hurt the economy as a whole.

    I don't know the solution to this problem.

    • wisty3 hours ago
      There's bqsically IMO two types of ads - marketing and sales.

      Marketing ads are signalling, brand recognition, etc. You want the cool earbuds that everyone knows. You want to buy them from a big, reputable company with good r&d.

      Sales is simpler - click on the ad and buy the product. It tends to be a bit sleasier - sales doesn't care as long as it makes a sale.

      There's often a bit of tension between sales and marketing. A 50% ooff exploding offer can be good for sales in the short term, but can make the brand look cheap.

    • londons_explore2 hours ago
      > that behavior will hurt the economy as a whole.

      I don't quite follow... Advertisers want their product sold. Consumers want to buy whichever product is most suitable for their needs (based on both price and performance), ad networks have every incentive to connect these two.

      In an ideal world an ad network would show me 10 ads for products I want to buy (ie. new shoes, ice cream, etc). I would have confidence that those products are the exact ones I want and that any more research would only show up inferior (worse value) products.

      The ad network gets to take no profit margin - since if it did, I could find that same product cheaper elsewhere.

      This leads to an equilibrium where the ad network shows mostly the perfect products - and charges a small margin - where the margin size is set to be slightly below my willingness to shop around for a better deal.

      Personalized pricing just represents different users estimated willingness to shop around - but if the model is correct, even those paying a higher price are happy with the situation or else they'd shop around.

      • direwolf202 hours ago
        Ad networks have every incentive to lie to consumers to get a sale. If the strength of the economy is measured in total sales, that's great. If the strength of the economy is measured by consumer satisfaction, not so much.

        An ideal ad network would not show you a product ideal for you, but a misleading ad for the lowest-cost product you'll buy for the most expensive price, with 95% of the difference pocketed by the ad network.

      • wongarsu2 hours ago
        Informing the target that a product exists is a small part of advertising. It's important for the small players, but for the big advertising spenders it's much more about communicating values, trustworthiness, emotions. Building a brand image, and maintaining brand awareness

        Just the fact that you are running an advertising campaign of a certain size used to be a signal in itself. Same with advertising in or for subcommunities. That signal is heavily dilluted by targeted advertising

        Similarly, personalized pricing is removing signal from the price. Sure, price was always a noisy signal, but better a noisy signal than no signal

      • StanislavPetrov35 minutes ago
        >In an ideal world an ad network would show me 10 ads for products I want to buy

        Ideal for who? What if you don't want to buy anything, much less have all of your personal information hoovered up and sold/shared/exfiltrated around to everyone in the world for the benefit of the advertisers that have no value for you?

    • dupedan hour ago
      > I am not sure how we fix the problem

      Regulation that causes big business to lose money and rich people to be a little less wealthy so society is better

      • ares6235 minutes ago
        no that's crazy talk. There must be some super obscure technological solution to a societal problem. Ideally something that can be sold as a SaaS.
    • rjtavares3 hours ago
      Why isn't making it illegal a solution?
    • 3 hours ago
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    • ares6232 hours ago
      “Collective action” < union < regulation
      • daveguyan hour ago
        ... < union + regulation
        • ares6237 minutes ago
          ... < democratic socialist republic without social media
  • aetherson2 hours ago
    Price discrimination is bad. It's worth trying to ban. You'll never stop 100% of it (and trying to go too over-the-top in terms of stopping it would not be worthwhile), but this is a useful area for regulation.
  • gwernan hour ago
    > Who knows why? I’m usually more willing to spend than she is, and I bet that's represented on my user profile. I was paying with a gift card, which surely contributes. Maybe it was a price scraping update, comparison shopping detection, or a system that explores “face-in-the-door” high prices before backing down. From the outside, no one really knows.

    The most obvious possibility omitted is that your wife got the first, easy, cheap car and then Uber had to quote you a higher price to get a second car. Cars don't fall from the sky; if two people successively ask for bids, how else could it work? What if the app quoted you both the cheap price for the only car within X blocks, and you bought it before she did? Is it suddenly going to go 'oops sorry, changed my mind, it now costs twice as much'? Sounds like a very bad experience to me! More sensible to give the first person a low quote and then when - unexpected and unpredictably - someone requests something similar, quote them the higher price reflecting the sudden local micro-shortage.

    • bobbiechen39 minutes ago
      (author here) I believe I had checked first in this case, which is why it was surprising. Sorry not to mention that in the post. This was in San Francisco, and there were multiple cars shown on the map.

      In my experience, I usually don't see this kind of price change before the request has actually been confirmed - and I have seen Lyft change the price between showing me the estimate and confirming the request (with an apologetic confirmation dialog, possibly only after some holding period has timed out).

      Maybe in my case where the high quote came first, the opposite scenario happened - a glut of drivers appeared between my request and hers, raising supply.

      Opaque pricing is powerful partly because we don't know. This enables people to construct a plausible story to explain any price.

    • 0xsn3k33 minutes ago
      it would be great if this were the case. unfortunately, Uber has been documented to practice individual price discrimination at a massive scale, using factors like if you’re in a low-income vs high-income neighborhood, individual rider “price sensitivity”, etc, in addition to market conditions (surge pricing), and as a result they have netted billions in profit [1]. i would guess this is why Uber AI researchers are paid so much.

      [1] https://len-sherman.medium.com/how-uber-became-a-cash-genera...

    • djoldmanan hour ago
      That raises an interesting question: if 10 people in a room request ubers without confirming the ride-hail, does the price go up for successive requests?
  • didgetmasteran hour ago
    This is why I rarely join those 'customer loyalty' programs that almost every store offers.

    I say 'no thanks' when the cashier wants to know my phone number, even if I am paying cash.

    It is almost impossible to remain anonymous in the consumer space, even if you are really trying.

    • AtheistOfFail41 minutes ago
      The day I learned of ghost Facebook profiles, I realized fighting back was impossible.
  • cameldrv2 hours ago
    A lot of the theoretical underpinnings about why capitalism is a good system are based on the law of one price. Especially in the context of an oligopoly, being able to price-discriminate on such an individual level leads to really bad outcomes.
  • noitpmeder3 hours ago
    I wish it were easier to have ephemeral interactions with companies. Why do I need a tracked and maintained user profile for things like Uber? Shouldnt it be possible to only interact for the single transaction, ending as soon as I leave the car.

    I imagine trying to continuously cycle accounts will run into various blocks, e.g. you can't sign up using your email/phone/credit-card because it is already linked to an existing account.

    I hate the way the world is going. As the article states, Uber can probably classify my exact spending habits to maximize a price I'm willing to pay for. But id much rather them have to treat me as a new soul every time, and hopefully along those lines have to fight a bit harder to get my business.

    • amelius3 hours ago
      On the other hand, if you're an Uber driver it is nice to know the person getting into your car was rated positively (not a dangerous individual, smelling of alcohol, etc.)

      But I have actually no idea if drivers can say "no" based on ratings.

      In general I would agree with you.

      • SpaceNoodled3 hours ago
        I'd rather have those smelling of alcohol be passengers than drivers.
    • dupedan hour ago
      A key part of uber is the ratings system and bans, so they do want to track your behavior across interactions with their drivers (or riders, in the flip side).
    • mschild3 hours ago
      This is why I refuse/back out of eshops that require accounts. Has the unintended upside that I often think twice about buying something and often dont. If I really need something though, ill create an account with a filler email, receive my product, and then make a really tedious (for the company) GDPR request because sometimes I like to be petty. Then I delete my account. If I need something from that store again, I will repeat that process.
  • sandworm1013 hours ago
    New job: poor person personal shopper. Someone with a "poor" profile follows you around the store so you can use their quoted prices instead of your own. Or travel agents that only book flights for you using early-2000s flip phones, shielding clients from the iPhone premium price.
    • nighthawk4548 minutes ago
      I recall an article on personalized pricing that had it reversed - the poor pricing is actually higher, bc it's harder to buy more at bulk rate / shop around / just not buy it (discretionary).
    • Retr0id2 hours ago
      The "poor" people would be getting the raw end of the deal - their profile would soon become "wealthy" and they'd have to pay more themselves.
  • OGEnthusiast3 hours ago
    Might be a good idea to get a cheap secondary Android phone to avoid having to pay the iPhone ecommerce/digital tax that companies like Uber will upcharge you for.
  • footy3 hours ago
    aside from everything else this seems ripe for abuse of people with cognitive disabilities
  • jrowen43 minutes ago
    Is it clear that this will not go in a direction that actually pushes back on wealth inequality?

    It seems distasteful on the surface of course but could it be macroeconomically a good thing?

    Obviously the fatal flaw is that capitalists are running it for their own gain but logically how would it play out?

  • an hour ago
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