24 pointsby DustinEchoes3 hours ago8 comments
  • rahimnathwani2 hours ago
    It seems weird for the government to collect data useful for research, but then to gate access based on the viewpoints of potential users. This restriction doesn't support the search for truth.

    Whatever people think of Lasker (Cremieux) and his views, isn't data being available to all interested parties the best way to find the truth?

    The article mentions this towards the very end:

      Adam Candeub, the top lawyer at the Federal Communications Commission, wrote a law review article in 2024 criticizing the N.I.H.’s discouragement of stigmatizing research. He compared it to the persecution of Galileo.
      “A liberal society should support the search for truth,” Mr. Candeub wrote, “regardless of how uncomfortable and unsettling that truth turns out to be.”
    • rustyhancock10 minutes ago
      Scientists, are not quite like explorers, just venturing off in direction and see what they find.

      They have interests, that align with funding, which aligns with actionable data. And they follow them.

      So who would even do such research? The best you could find is some meaningless difference in mean scores that is likely swamped by environmental factors. And the fact that "race" is far fuzzier than our intuition leads us to think (it turns out we're very good at applying racial labels to people, that genetically are simply not so clear especially at the edges of categories).^*

      So it's hard to fund research with no purpose, that scientists aren't particularly interested in conducting. Instead [GWAS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome-wide_association_study) studies answer more useful questions that are actionable (you can do a genetic test and calculate a risk in principle).

      * I'll clarify this statement because it's a common misconception. There are clearly genetic differences between racial groups. But they are complex statsical genetics that are impossible to cleanly pin down without large levels of miscategorization. And GWAS studies are answering the question which genes are associated with cognition and disorder.

    • cyanydeezan hour ago
      Paradox of intolerance answers your dilemma.

      Other answers: if placebos work, why would we restrict peoples choice and their dissemination?

      Because placebos rarely are innocent in often they become avoidant measures away from empirical science.

      Your view point is a local minimum in that you want to ignore societal impact. One of those impacts is using valid data to tout pseudoscientific methods.

      We know GIGO but the general populace does not

      You should use the samw logic ans find yourself arguing against vaccinea and herd immunity.

      • rahimnathwanian hour ago
        The paradox of intolerance suggests we should (if all else fails) suppress those whose seek to suppress others.

        How is that relevant? Is Lasker seeking to (let alone succeeding at) suppressing voices that disagree with his own?

        He might not engage with his critics (e.g. David Bessis) but AFAICT he's not doing anything to suppress them.

        • cyanydeez39 minutes ago
          Surely this time race science wont be used to make social policies that directly boil down to racism by visual difference.
          • terminalshort24 minutes ago
            So if I understand correctly, your argument is:

            1. This research may prove that there are significant intelligence differences by race.

            2. Public knowledge of this fact could lead to discrimination on an individual level based on group membership.

            3. This is bad for society.

            4. Therefore we should not conduct research down this path.

  • hubber2 hours ago
    If you think about it for just a moment, it would actually be extraordinary for the races to have diverged in so many easily observable and visible ways, yet somehow miraculously demonstrate absolutely no aggregate differences in any measurable way in any psychological, social, or intellectual attributes. It's so absurdly unlikely that it ought to require a mountain of evidence (and one hell of a theory explaining it) to not be laughed out of the conversation.
  • justin662 hours ago
    Cringe:

    In a statement, Lyric Jorgenson, associate director of science policy at the N.I.H., said the agency had taken steps to protect the ABCD Study. It has introduced a new online portal requiring users to complete training on responsible data use and to “pass a knowledge test prior to accessing the data.”

    They have an online training and everything!

  • DeathArrow18 minutes ago
  • DeathArrowan hour ago
    The White House already committed to open-sourcing all such datasets:

    "(a) all federally funded health research should empower Americans through transparency and open-source data, and should avoid or eliminate conflicts of interest that skew outcomes and perpetuate distrust;"

  • dismalaf44 minutes ago
    > Jordan Lasker, who often writes about race and intelligence under the name Crémieux

    It's funny because this guy is center-left, he just happens to actually be intellectually honest.

    Anyhow, either we do science or we just admit that we don't like the social implications of the evidence. Trying to hide data and gaslight the public isn't science.

  • terminalshort2 hours ago
    I can't take any of this seriously so long as any research on race and intelligence continues to be banned as heresy rather than being discussed scientifically.
    • bryanlarsen2 hours ago
      Race is not a genetic concept, it's social.

      Or more accurately, if it were genetic the races would look very different.

      The genetic diversity of "black" alone exceeds the rest of the world combined.

      So you have two choices:

      1. Everybody is black.

      2. The other races roughly stand, but there are dozens of different black races.

      Or you can be more accurate and say race is cultural.

      • jyscaoan hour ago
        Genetic diversity within continental races, including that of Sub-Saharan Africans, are mostly a consequence of genetic drift.

        While genetic diversity between races are from selection. Thus the inter-racial genetic differences are more likely to manifest in trait differences that humans find more meaningful (which I use purely in a descriptive manner, not prescriptive), such as physiological (medical, metabolic), psychological & behavioral (personality), cognitive (intelligence), and of course physical (appearance, athletic).

        The intra-racial differences that arise from genetic drift result in things that are still tangible genetic differences, e.g. ABO blood group frequencies, but don't map well onto characteristics that human societies place emphasis on as much.

        And to address your point that:

        >The genetic diversity of "black" alone exceeds the rest of the world combined.

        This is because the level of genetic diversity as influenced by genetic drift is primarily a function of population size, and Africa being the origin of the Homo sapien species, and probably the Homo genus as a whole, has always had the highest level of effective population size. Thus genetic drift in Africans is least likely to be able to cause allele fixation on particular genes, and so such diversity is better preserved. But as already mentioned, these forms of genetic diversity is less likely to impact the observed traits that most humans, both academics/social scientists and your average joe, find "meaningful".

      • terminalshort2 hours ago
        OK, then let's do it right. But I think you know that isn't really the issue here. Nobody is putting out studies on correctly defined races by genetic groupings and intelligence either because the topic is still considered heresy. Your point that the commonly used definition of race is inaccurate is simply deflecting from this fact.
        • yedan hour ago
          The point is there is no such thing as a “correct” grouping. The choice of what constitutes a group is completely subjective, it all depends on how far you choose to zoom in or out.
      • DeathArrowan hour ago
        >Race is not a genetic concept, it's social.

        Is this also true for other mammals such as cats, dogs, pigs, cows, horses?

      • inshard2 hours ago
        Many sub-Saharan African populations, such as Bantu-speaking West Africans, exhibit relatively lower genetic diversity compared to the Khoisan people, who typically have light brown skin. The Khoisan lineages diverged from those leading to Bantu and other sub-Saharan groups around 100,000–150,000 years ago, making them one of the most ancient human ancestries.
        • terminalshort2 hours ago
          All are equally ancient. They are 100-150K years from the common ancestor and so are all others descended from that lineage.
      • hubber2 hours ago
        [flagged]
    • amarcheschi2 hours ago
      The person in question in the article is kirkegaard, you should not take seriously what he does anyway

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Diversity_Foundation

      edit since i was feeling really daring today i found an old archived page of a wiki holding a lot of interesting thoughts from him, such as eugenics to prevent the loss of western civilization, and other points that at this point you should imagine. link: https://web.archive.org/web/20250416005529/https:/rationalwi...

      • terminalshort2 hours ago
        This criticism seems to mostly be that he is associated with bad people who say naughty things. Maybe he is a bad scientist, but where are all the well designed scientific studies that show his conclusions are wrong? That's what I care about, but they don't exist because you would never get funding and even to propose running such a study would be career suicide.
      • inshard2 hours ago
        • amarcheschian hour ago
          the entire microuniverse of some rationalist/pseudoscience groups feeling really "rational" and then having racist, sexist, (insert -ist or -ism here) views is a bit of a joke at this point
    • conception2 hours ago
      For one the idea of race is a social, not scientific, construct. It doesn’t mean anything scientifically.
      • terminalshort2 hours ago
        You are a perfect example of what I am talking about. That is an obvious lie. Of course it means something scientifically because it refers to a genetic grouping. e.g. black people are much more likely to have the genetic disease sickle cell anemia. Nobody seems to have much of a problem with that statement but if it were a gene related to intelligence you people would lose your minds.

        If it isn't a scientifically valid concept, then why did the NIH label the genetic data by race?

        • dragonwriteran hour ago
          Races are not genetic groupings, they are social constructs whose boundaries evolve over time, which is particularly clear when they are formalized in a way which resista change and that formalization drifts increasingly far from the current common usage, such as the way the White racial category in common usage in America currently roughly corresponds to the the subset of the White racial category that excludes the Hispanic ethnicity in the US Census categorization.

          The construction of race at any given time and place will tend to have non-zero correlation with genetic frequencies, in part by chance and in part because it is usually largely (but not entirely) drivn by appearance which is to some degree associated with some aspects of underlying genetics.

          > e.g. black people are much more likely to have the genetic disease sickle cell anemia.

          People with ancestry in sub-Saharan Africa (and within that, even more West Africa), India, the Middle East, and Mediterranean are more likely to have the gene that provides malaria resistance with one copy and sickle cell disease with two than other populations.

          While the highest incidence group is also commonly “Black” in most constructions of race, a lot of the American perception of it as a nearly exclusively Black disease is because the population perceived as Black in the US is heavily drawn from West Africa, and the US population also underrepresents other populations in which it is more common than average AND does not include, and may not construct as Black, populations constructed as Black elsewhere in the world where it is not common.

          • terminalshort41 minutes ago
            You are 100% correct, but also 100% missing the point. When I say white people are more likely to carry the gene for cystic fibrosis, or black people are more likely to carry genetic risk factors for kidney disease, nobody will reply with a long winded explanation claiming that statement is invalid because "white" and "black" are not scientifically valid because... Comments like yours appear only when the topic of intelligence comes up, so I conclude that the real problem you have with this is the subject of intelligence, and not the categories.

            And when the science on race and intelligence came out, the response of the scientific community was not "your categories are bad, and here is my study on intelligence that actually uses scientifically valid genetic groupings." It was "any further science on this subject will not be funded and if you express disagreement it will risk your career."

        • just_oncean hour ago
          Would you feel better if people said "people of African descent are much more likely to have a genetic disease sickle cell anemia"?
        • amanaplanacanalan hour ago
          The problem here is that "black" can mean anybody with dark skin from anywhere in the world.

          The sickle cell stuff is likely related to the fact that most "black" people in the US are descended from slaves that pretty much all came from the same small region in West Africa.

          • terminalshortan hour ago
            My point here is that this problem only seems to be brought up when the research has to do with intelligence. If you talk about genetic differences between "black," "white," or any other racial grouping on any other metric nobody ever brings it up as in my example above. So, while I acknowledge the fundamental weaknesses of the category, I have to conclude that the real objection here isn't the categories, but the topic of the research.
            • just_once11 minutes ago
              Most of the examples that you've used gain very little from added specificity. It's essentially linguistic laziness. That linguistic laziness is not identically consequential in all contexts.
      • blargthorwars2 hours ago
        Some medicines work better or worse depending on race. Based on the scientific methodology, your statement is incorrect.
    • 7622362 hours ago
      Totally agree.
    • rf152 hours ago
      Yeah I agree, considering how much my black kid is beating all the other white kids intellectually. Good to know you know your place. /s