255 pointsby mhb5 hours ago26 comments
  • bothemer4 hours ago
    On January 8, 2026, the digital sky went dark. I thought we are pushing the boundaries of the tech world and have super powers when needed. I was so wrong.

    This is Iran's third total internet shutdown, but the methodology has evolved into something far more surgical. They didn't just block IP addresses; they severed BGP routes, killed mobile data, and effectively jammed Starlink signals into a dead zone thanks to Russian imports. When the signal itself is murdered, your Tor bridges and VPNs become expensive paperweights.

    As builders, we are being out-engineered. We have grown complacent, assuming the "always-on" cloud is a fundamental constant of the universe. But if your software requires a remote handshake to function, it is a liability, not a tool, in a crisis zone. Every application built with heavy reliance on centralized APIs vaporizes the moment the backbone is cut.

    We must stop designing for the "connected" illusion and start building for the darkness.

    This is my plea to the HN community: stop treating "offline-first" as a niche feature and start treating it as a human right. We need robust, decentralized mesh networks that bypass state-controlled gateways entirely. We need isolated documentation tools and local-first databases that can sync via Bluetooth or physical handoffs.

    Build for the 212 regions that went dark last year so that the next time a state pulls the plug, the people aren't left helpless.

    a throwaway account for obvious reasons (they have also Chinese tech to track); make your code work when the world goes quiet.

    • Aurornis3 hours ago
      > This is my plea to the HN community: stop treating "offline-first" as a niche feature and start treating it as a human right. We need robust, decentralized mesh networks that bypass state-controlled gateways entirely. We need isolated documentation tools and local-first databases that can sync via Bluetooth or physical handoffs.

      I don’t want to downplay the seriousness of the problems in Iran, but switching to a world where tools are design first for syncing via Bluetooth and offline methods just isn’t going to make a better world for all of us.

      You need specialized tools for specialized situations. Trying to get the whole world to pay the overhead of mesh networks and Bluetooth handoffs and all of the design choices that go along with it would be a mistake.

      The software world is not monolithic. Pleas for everyone to stop building for the way the world works and start building for highly unusual and specific use cases isn’t reasonable.

      Build specialized tools for specialized circumstances. They will always serve the purpose far better than if you try to get everyone to build their general purpose tools around extremely rare circumstances.

      • jvanderbot3 hours ago
        Expecting all apps to go offline-first is probably a nonstarter.

        Expecting a robust ecosystem of offline-first apps, ideally compatible with everyone else's existing apps, would be awesome.

        An opt-in facebook streaming offline mode where posts are queued and sent...

        or an opt-in signal mode where p2p messaging is possible via transient connections (imagine the data mule movie that would be coming out in 2030). All this is technically possible, just not prioritized.

      • xantronix2 hours ago
        > The software world is not monolithic. Pleas for everyone to stop building for the way the world works and start building for highly unusual and specific use cases isn’t reasonable.

        This expressed expectation of "how the world works" is the perception of a monolith, however. There is no divine right or reason for things to be designed online-first, except for incentives to the service providers. When somebody designs an app to be online-first, they are choosing to be a service provider, and not an app author. This distinction may not be clear to developers who came to be in a culture where online-first is a first order concern, but it is immediately clear to anybody who "owns" the "app" in question when the service is either neglected or decommissioned in a few years, or is otherwise made inaccessible via the internet.

    • StrLght2 hours ago
      > We need robust, decentralized mesh networks that bypass state-controlled gateways entirely.

      Let's do a thought experiment: assume they're here and that we are talking about a dictatorship. What's next?

      If it's something like Meshtastic — it requires standalone hardware. These devices will be outlawed. The entire country will stop importing them, confiscating these devices from whoever uses them, probably jailing people who own them.

      Alright, then what if it's something like BitChat instead — you only need your phone. If it gets traction, police will stop you and force you to unlock your phone. They do this already in Russia.

      It's not a technical problem and can't be solved like one.

    • luckylion3 hours ago
      I disagree. Build for your target audience and your targeted application. We don't need for every vehicle to be off-road-capable when you're expecting to deliver cargo on paved roads. We can do that, but it will make things more complex and more expensive.

      I'm not saying that nobody should ever consider "the state cuts off the internet" as a criteria when deciding what to do, but making that a foundational requirement is like starting out with "handle google-scale" as a requirement when you have zero reason to believe you will.

      There are plenty of good reasons for local first apps, but "build for darkness" is pretty far down the list for me.

      • TeMPOraL3 hours ago
        In other words: "who's gonna pay for that?".

        The sad thing about continuing development of existing technologies is that all reliability, robustness, and multi-purpose capabilities get optimized away over time. In the ideal world, companies wouldn't even sell you hardware or software, they'd just charge for magically doing the one thing you want at the moment, with no generality and no agency on your end.

        It's a miracle we still have electric outlets in homes, and not just bunch of hard-wired appliances plugged in by vendor subcontractors.

        • Aurornis3 hours ago
          > In other words: "who's gonna pay for that?".

          As opposed to what? Everyone pays the overhead and price of apps designed for things like local-first Bluetooth sync?

          This is a situation where the market will prevail and people would go toward (and therefore pay for) apps designed to fit their needs, not apps designed around rare and unusual scenarios.

          Build specific tools for specific situations. You won’t get anywhere trying to get all general purpose apps to focus on niche requirements.

    • RicoElectrico3 hours ago
      Shameless plug: start with https://comaps.app/ . Recently I helped a woman find an address because she told me there's some problem with her internet connection.

      I think having an offline map of at least the region you live in can come in handy. In fact, I carry an old phone with impressive battery life (Samsung Galaxy A10) and offline maps installed on it so I don't get lost.

      • sixtyj2 hours ago
        Paper maps (or printed) is mandatory when you are on track in mountains. Offline digital maps are useless in -30 when phone battery and powerbank are dead.
      • graemep2 hours ago
        There are lots of offline map apps. OSMAnd, for one.

        Very useful in some areas. Not even that out of the way - I have needed offline maps in Cumbria, which is just rural and hilly.

    • ajjahs3 hours ago
      [dead]
    • Noaidi3 hours ago
      > As builders, we are being out-engineered.

      The funny part of engineers is that they always think that, at some point, they will reach perfect engineering.

      The best engineering already exists and you do not need to do a thing. Code will not save you from the shtstorm that is coming.

      • Aurornis3 hours ago
        > The funny part of engineers is that they always think that, at some point, they will reach perfect engineering.

        This is the opposite of what I’ve observed. Most engineers know that everything is tradeoffs and compromises. They know there will always be a better way.

        A lot of engineering management is getting engineering teams to accept good enough rather than endless iterations and refactoring.

    • tomasphan3 hours ago
      How would you communicate using an offline app?
      • supertropean hour ago
        Copy files onto Micro SD cards. Smuggle them out of the country or to a contact who has Internet access.
      • trash_cat3 hours ago
        BitChat comes to mind.
      • nailer3 hours ago
        By ‘offline’ they mean not connected to the internet. So peer to peer communication via wifi or bluetooth or USB or whatever else.
      • Noaidi3 hours ago
        With your mouth?
      • preisschild3 hours ago
        peer to peer RF like bluetooth or IEEE 802.15.4
    • 4 hours ago
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  • firejake3084 hours ago
    > As of Saturday, the U.S.-based Human Rights Activists News Agency said it had confirmed 5,459 deaths and is investigating 17,031 more.

    The 30,000 number comes from the Ministry of Health. It seems the UN number also aligns with the new 30,000 number. This is much worse than the 3,000 that was reported earlier. But it also seems like the crackdown is over now, and we're still just counting deaths from Jan 8 and 9.

    I compare this to the recent protests in Bangladesh, where Sheikh Hasina ordered the military to shoot the protesters and the military refused. The difference between these two countries is proof that people do have the ability to disobey orders from authoritarian leaders, and that decision can have a huge impact.

    • reliabilityguy3 hours ago
      The difference is that IR didn’t use Artesh (it’s military) to suppress the protests. They bused in its proxy militias from Iraq, who doesn’t care much who to shoot.
      • swat5352 hours ago
        I'm Iranian (diaspora from Canada), there are multiple branches of security forces in the regime:

        1. The army (air, land, sea, etc)

        2. IRGC (revolutionary guards)

        3. Basij (a specialized militia within IRCG, often with their own chain of command)

        4. Police (for civilian monitoring and control)

        5. Guidance Patrol (specialized "morality" police for enforcing Islamic law)

        6. Other (undercover, highly trained agents both inside and outside of country)

        The reason why it's setup up this way, is to prevent mutiny within the regime.

        After the revolution, they realized that they have to setup a system like this to protect themselves, if one of these is compromised.

        Currently, Iran is in the process of preparing for a long war with Israel, United States (and their allies in the region). Khamenei has been moved to a secure location and is no longer appearing for "Friday prayers".

        He will likely attempt to flee should the regime falls. I hope that he is captured alive and is forced to stand trial.

        He has to answer for every single person he has harmed, both in Iran and elsewhere.

        • orwin2 hours ago
          That's remarkably similar to Saddam Hussein organization, except the 5. Do they need that much because they are a minority in the country too?

          (Also, were your family part of the mujahideen/OMPI/MEK? I know two French iranian from the diaspora: one had his family involved in the revolution against the shah, and then had to leave when fundamentalists took power, and the other is from a Persian northern clan who supported the Shah and got booted out when the Shah fell, but they still had property (Hashish and poppy seeds if i understood the "import export" subtext correctly) in Afghanistan and northern Iran. Wildly different family stories, both still sad at what Iran became)

    • GordonS3 hours ago
      Isn't HRANA funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), a well-known CIA front?
      • orwin2 hours ago
        IHR have around the same numbers, and isn't associated with the CIA. Valid concerns, but here you have multiple sources.
      • tokai3 hours ago
        Is it really a gotcha that CIA is pushing money towards orgs that are in opposition to a US adversary? Is the French resistance during ww2 tainted because they received support from OSS?
        • pydry2 hours ago
          Kind of. The US isnt helping push back a horde of Nazi invaders this time.

          They're trying into install a literal monarchy on behalf of a regime which is guilty of committing a Nazi style genocide.

          Probably a little skepticism is warranted on their casualty figures.

    • geremiiah4 hours ago
      > The 30,000 number comes from the Ministry of Health.

      Then why does the article say that they couldn't independently verify the number and that the only source is a German-Iranian eye doctor?

      • tremonan hour ago
        Have you given some thought to that question yourself, and what conclusion did you reach?
    • aaomidi4 hours ago
      Main difference is that a good chunk do the crackdown was done by bringing in katib hezbollah from surrounding countries.
    • pydry3 hours ago
      >The 30,000 number comes from the Ministry of Health.

      It comes, allegedly, from people from that ministry who were talking to TIME.

      I would imagine their contact was probably mediated by the state department - the same people currently gearing up for an Iraq-style invasion.

      Later on TIME adds:

      >TIME has been unable to independently verify these figures.

      Which is not altogether unsurprising. TIME wasnt exactly the most careful magazine when it came to verifying state department supplied intelligence about WMDs back in 2003.

      • tehjoker2 hours ago
        There are reports from Iranians and admissions from the US that they had people inside the protests to cause chaos.

        “The Iranian regime is in trouble. Bringing in mercenaries is its last best hope,” Mr Pompeo wrote on X. “Riots in dozens of cities and the Basij under siege — Mashhad, Tehran, Zahedan. Next stop: Baluchestan," he added. At least ten killed in Iran protests as authorities issue warnings to demonstrators"

        “Happy New Year to every Iranian in the streets. Also to every Mossad agent walking beside them."

        https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/mena/2026/01/03/mike-po...

  • jeswin3 hours ago
    What explains the silence from activists outside Iran on this particular issue? I see relatively limited coverage on global media. Iranians seem to be fighting this alone, and dying by the thousands.

    Perhaps we know, but the reasons will be unpopular.

    • eaurouge3 hours ago
      There's limited coverage of all global conflicts, certainly in American media, but quite likely in other Western media.

      > What explains the silence from activists outside Iran on this particular issue?

      What explains the silence from the media on all other conflicts. It's certainly not because lives are not being destroyed in Sudan [1] and Myanmar [2].

      1. https://news.un.org/en/story/2026/01/1166738

      2. https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/09/1166004

      • mhban hour ago
        > There's limited coverage of all global conflicts

        Not exactly. There's a singular exception which has received torrential "coverage".

    • orwin3 hours ago
      Lack of shock images, and lack of personnel for humanitarian orgs. Protests and killings are happening outside of the locations MSF is implanted, and even if we have stories from doctors prevented from helping shot protesters, we don't have videos (and in the last few years and especially the last two weeks, doctors finally understood no one cared if they were prevented to help, since it was acceptable in France and even in the US).

      The only NGO looking for Iran exclusively is Iran Human Right (https://iranhr.net/en/) and depend on the UNHRC, which is not particularly media trained and not good at reacting (also, they lost US funding less than a year ago and are reorganizing as we speak).

      In the end, it will be like Yemen or Sudan all over again: media hear of the massacre late, send journalists, journalists get refused, they send journalists to neighboring countries and infiltrate with local guide help, some journalist dies, and three month after the beginning of the trouble we will get images and information.

    • kelipso3 hours ago
      Probably the activists are hesitant because the US is rearing to start a war with Iran (that will certainly kill way more civilians) and they don’t want to contribute to that decision.
      • wahnfrieden2 hours ago
        US activists against IDF wanted US to stop arming and funding and enabling genocide directly. Many IDF soldiers are also from the US or go back and forth.

        US isn’t arming or funding or enabling Iran directly, so calls for US action would mean call to war, which US leadership has already been signaling.

        Maybe you think US should go to war. Regardless that’s the biggest difference.

        There are also frankly many who are confused about Iran - sympathizing with Iran leadership as enemies of IDF and not understanding who they are and what they do. Lack of video going around doesn’t help.

    • 3 hours ago
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    • SonOfKyuss3 hours ago
      In America at least, we saw protests against some of the things Israel did in Gaza because the US government is supporting Israel. Since the US is not a supporter of Iran, and in fact has been strong adversary for decades, there is less reason to protest here. Plus, we’ve got some serious problems of our own that are keeping us occupied at the moment
      • midlander2 hours ago
        But the protests weren’t limited to Ameica, there were protests all over the world, including in Muslim countries.

        And the outrage wasn’t always directed at the government. We don’t see Iranian students in the US being attacked. We don’t see Iranian places of worship in the US being attacked. We don’t see as much outrage in the comments on HN - there were some event justifying it.

        • t-37 minutes ago
          Iranian-Americans are almost universally people who fled Iran during or after the revolution, they are almost all hostile to the current ruling regime. Why would anyone attack them over what Iran is doing? Even Jewish Americans haven't been attacked over what Israel is doing in Gaza, despite them having large numbers of dual-citizens and majority support for Israel.
      • luckylion3 hours ago
        It's true that the recipient of the protest might be different, but that's no reason to be quiet.

        China in Tibet, China's treatment of the Uyghurs, Russia's war against Ukraine, Kony 2012 etc, there are lots of causes where the local government in whichever country you look at isn't actively involved, yet there was a lot more public noise and campaigns.

        I don't know what the answer is, but "my government doesn't deliver weapons to them" hasn't been a reason before, so I don't see why it would be now.

        • lukeschlather3 hours ago
          US government policy is completely aligned with the goal of stopping Iran from doing this, there is no reason to protest the US government on this issue.
          • luckylion7 minutes ago
            It's not always a protest against government, sometimes it a campaign of lobbying, sometimes it's international attention.

            The US government wasn't a friend of Kony in 2012. Before Trump 2, the US were not that friendly with Russia, yet people protested in many places around the world to show support for Ukraine and to voice their opposition to Russia's imperialistic wars, being aligned with their governments' position.

            It's different with Iran. Some of that is likely to be Iran's lower profile, but not all -- it's not like media outlets are not reporting on it at all and you have to get your information from niche sources to hear about events in Iran.

        • orwin3 hours ago
          China in Tibet manifestation were mostly thanks to the Dalai Lama. Without a spiritual chief in exile, no one would have cared.

          The Uighur is easy: Nike and a lots of western brand used Chinese work camps. In my neighborhood that's what people protested, not really Chinese treatment of their minority, but the fact our brands used slave labor. Nike and all no promised they wouldn't use slave again, the Uighur are still discriminated and forcefully sterilized, no one care anymore in the West.

          Russia war against Ukraine is very different, it's the first war in Europe since the 90s, and the first "real" war in europe since 45 (I guarantee you if Ukraine folded in 3 days, no one would have said much). Also, Europe is financing the Russian war economy, which is easy to protest.

          • seanmcdirmid3 hours ago
            Westerners treat Tibetans like pandas, which is why China has travel restrictions into Tibet proper for foreigners. Most westerners don’t know the Uighurs exist, and anyways they are Muslims. Accordingly, China doesn’t bother with travel restrictions into Xinjiang. The fact that they have any attention from westerners at all these days is kind of amazing.
            • wahnfrieden2 hours ago
              A lot of the continued attention is due to Adrian Zenz
    • newyankee3 hours ago
      Islam and Neoliberal wests are the strangest bedfellows. Thankfully people like Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and many others pointed the oddities long before many others made it us vs them political. Palestinian cause is used to drown any other legitimate concerns about ideology
      • tovej27 minutes ago
        Richard Dawkins is a weirdo crank these days who's co-authoring questionable books woth sex offenders about transgender issues. And the one thing Christopher Hitchens was most right about was Israel, he was an anti-zionist.

        And the neoliberal west has more in common with Israel than Iran, I don't quite understand why you choose to write broad political comments if you don't have the basic background knowledge that would be needwd in this discussion.

    • tovej3 hours ago
      There's no activism because everybody agrees it's terrible. If your govt is already cutting out Iran and sanctioning them, there's no need to demand action.

      This is very different from Israel, where our govts are actively supporting a genocide. That requires activism to change course.

      Why would people demonstrate if everyone is aligned?

      • behnamoh3 hours ago
        > If your govt is already cutting out Iran and sanctioning them, there's no need to demand action.

        “Human beings are members of a whole

        In creation of one essence and soul

        If one member is afflicted with pain

        Other members uneasy will remain

        If you have no sympathy for human pain

        The name of human you cannot retain”

        —Saadi, Persian poet

      • jryle703 hours ago
        Protests were about US's inaction in Gaza as much as its support for Israel. Why no such protests now? Why aren't there thousands of people gathering demanding US doing something to help Iran's people?
        • throw3108222 hours ago
          The US was not inactive in Gaza. It was actively supporting, funding and and arming a genocide. Currently the Trump administration is actively engaged in a process to clean up the Gaza strip, rebuild it with the money of other countries, and finally hand it over to Israel for free (for who do you think those nice skyscrapers would be built, for the Palestinians? Lol).
          • mhban hour ago
            > for who [sic] do you think those nice skyscrapers would be built, for the Palestinians? Lol)

            Are you under the illusion that the Palestinians funded and built their previous infrastructure? Lol.

            • throw31082240 minutes ago
              Are you under the illusion that your comment has any relevance, besides revealing your urge to vilify an entire people?
              • mhb24 minutes ago
                Try and follow. The Palestinians weren't the ones who built their original infrastructure and it wasn't "hand[ed] ... over to Israel". Other than your antipathy towards Israel, what makes you think that whatever other countries pay to rebuild for the Palestinians will be handed over to Israel?
    • behnamoh3 hours ago
      Because Persians are fighting islam (they're burning down mosques).

      and the islamic regime was a sponsor of previous pro-palestine movements.

      leftists don't find this an appealing mix. they'd rather blame Israel for everything, but here we see Iranians siding with the Israelis because they've seen what islam does to their country.

      • graemep3 hours ago
        I very much doubt they are fighting Islam. Most of them are Muslims. They are fighting fundamentalist Islam. DO you have any evidence they are doing this or "siding with the Israelis"? The fundamentalist Islamist Saudi's seem to get on with Israel fine these days.

        I think its simpler. There is no one white involved. What is unique about Israel is that most of its population is white so its an issue worth covering (for people backing either side). The same with Ukraine. On the other hand what happens in Eritrea or Sudan or Myanmar or Xinjiang does not matter.

        • behnamoh2 hours ago
          I'm Persian. most Iranians are NOT muslim; that's what the islamic regime's propaganda has tried to convey for 47 years. if anything, many who were already muslim became atheists after seeing the atrocities of the regime in the past decades.

          Iran's population is also overwhelmingly pro-West.

      • Calavar3 hours ago
        This is a straw man in my opinion. But regardless of that, your theory doesn't explain why conservative media isn't really covering this either - The Iran protests haven't exactly been front page material on Fox News or OAN or Breitbart
        • behnamoh2 hours ago
          the conservative media is covering it. Prince Reza Pahlavi (the leader of the revolution) has appeared on Fox several times. Mark Levin, Rep. senators (Graham, etc.) constantly talk about how we should urgently help Iranians in their fight for freedom.
    • tdeck3 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • UltraSane3 hours ago
        Please define what you think Zionist means. I have no idea WTF it means since Israel exists as a Jewish state for 76 years.
        • tdeck3 hours ago
          > Please define what you think Zionist means. I have no idea WTF it means since Israel exists as a Jewish state for 76 years.

          If you don't know what words mean, why is that my problem?

          • UltraSane2 hours ago
            What do YOU think it means? What are you trying to communicate when you use it?
      • whyage3 hours ago
        It doesn't erase Israel's genocide, but the question is still valid: why don't these crimes against Iran's own citizens evoke international outrage?
        • throw3108222 hours ago
          First of all, knowing well that the US has been looking for excuses to attack Iran for the past, I don't know, twenty years at least, I am extremely suspicious of information about the numbers of these massacres. I know perfectly well that a media campaign filled with horrific reports is going to precede an attack by the US to either reduce the country in ruins or to a puppet state. I am also quite suspicious that these protests might be somehow encouraged by the US precisely for the same purpose. I mean, if Russian propaganda can influence foreign countries, I can't put a limit to what USA's power in the IT and social media space can do.

          Besides this, of course when atrocities are perpetrated by an ally with whom you entertain friendly diplomatic, commercial and military relationships, it makes a lot of sense to protest: you have some leverage. When they are committed by an enemy country with which you have already severed any relationship, protests are pointless.

        • GordonS3 hours ago
          Because Iran claims foreign-backed terrorists were behind all the murder and destruction - backed by Israel, the US and UK.

          Mossad has openly said they have people in Iran, and Israeli media has said they've sent weapons to the "protestors" in Iran. Senior figures in the US government have alluded to the same.

          Many videos have been published by Iranians online, which certainly do not show "peaceful protestors" - they show gangs of masked men beating random civilians to death, fire-bombing buses and ambulance; they show leaders dishing out weapons and satellite comms devices, and trained men using assault rifles to attack civilians and the police.

          We've also seem video of over a million Iranians marching in Tehran in support of the government, and in protest of the foreign-back terrorists.

          And we have the MSM happily parroting any death figures they get, from anyone... even if they are literally from Pahlavi's mate or a CIA "human rights" group based in Langley!

          We should all be more sceptical when our media and governments try to gain consent for war, and we should be asking who stands to gain - it's certainly not us, the people.

          • 2 hours ago
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          • UltraSanean hour ago
            The Islamic theocracy in charge of Iran is deeply unpopular due to its repression and severe mismanagement of the Iranian economy. It has cut Iran off from the Internet.

            "We should all be more sceptical"

            This is very ironic coming from someone who actually believes anything the Iranian theocracy says. They are even less honest than Trump.

            • GordonSan hour ago
              > The Islamic theocracy in charge of Iran is deeply unpopular due to its repression and severe mismanagement of the Iranian economy

              Here's a way of saying that in a less propaganda'y way: "The Iranian government is unpopular because of the impact of US sanctions, which have made the lives of ordinary citizens mucher harder than they need to be."

              > It has cut Iran off from the Internet

              Because foreign-backed terrorists were using Starlink terminals to communicate, and the security services needed to find them, and stop them; at least, that's what Iran claims, and it at least makes sense.

              • AnimalMuppet32 minutes ago
                The Iranian government is unpopular because of the impact of US sanctions, true, but those sanctions did not come out of nowhere. They are largely caused by the actions of the Iranian government. So that government does not get a pass because the pain comes from sanctions. It's still the consequences of their own actions.
        • pydry3 hours ago
          The principle we ought to follow is the principle we expected Soviet dissidents to follow.

          What principle did we expect Andrei Sakharov [a Soviet scientist punished for his criticism of the U.S.S.R.] to follow? Why did people decide that Sakharov was a moral person?

          Sakharov did not treat every atrocity as identical-he had nothing to say about American atrocities. When he was asked about them, he said, "I don't know anything about them, I don't care about them, what I talk about are Soviet atrocities."

          And that was right-because those were the ones that he was responsible for, and that he might have been able to in­fluence. Again, it's a very simple ethical point: you are responsible for the predictable consequences of your actions, you're not responsible for the predictable consequences of somebody else's actions.

          Conversely, how do we view the protests in the USSR against jim crow laws under stalin? They surely existed, but of what consequence were they? None whatsoever.

        • alex11383 hours ago
          I want people to be REAL careful about "Israel obviously committed a genocide"

          All those people brutally murdered on October 7 don't just disappear. Whatever you think about Israel's response it's kind of amazing the main focus is on the "big bad" of Israel

          There were pro-Pally protests on October 8! If not October 7. Before the bodies were cool, so to speak

          If you were pro-Palestine it is absolutely your moral duty to not just be silent. There is absolutely no ambiguity here. The Islamic Republic is slaughtering Iranians

          Edit: And I don't give a damn if this is "construed as hostile", if you downvote me for this (Already one in the last minute) you do not deserve the 500 karma you have to be able to downvote me. I, in fact, suggest that you delete your account

    • lingrush43 hours ago
      Nobody in the west actually cares about injustice. They just pretend to care when it's politically convenient.

      Unfortunately, ABC and NBC haven't found a way to blame Trump for what's happening in Iran. Highlighting the atrocities perpetuated in the name of Islam is more likely to help Trump than hurt him, so this story must be minimized. It's just good, smart politics.

    • Noaidi3 hours ago
      People are not being told to be outraged about it via whatever social media platform.
      • t-325 minutes ago
        This article right here, and the countless that came before are telling people to be outraged. People aren't, partly because they don't know what to believe without really any reliable or unbiased reporting, partly because the Trump outrage machine has filled the news feeds with so much other stuff to be outraged about, and partly because the situation in the Middle East seems so futile and stupid that people don't want to care because nothing will change and no government with any say in the region will allow peace or democracy or self-determination to the people there.
    • 31337Logic3 hours ago
      Religion and virtue signaling.
  • radicalethics4 hours ago
    I feel like the period between 2019 through to today (2019-2026), human death tolls have paralleled prior twentieth century death tolls. Numbers that sound like tens of thousands, and even millions if you count Ukraine/Russia.
  • curiousObject4 hours ago
    The simple absence of on the ground reports from a variety of independent sources tells me that these numbers should not be simply ignored.

    If there’s nothing happening, then the obvious way for the authorities to prove that is to let observers in, and let independent information out. They do not do this, so I will take these reports of deaths more seriously.

    • amoshi3 hours ago
      As another comment said, they shouldn't be ignored, but they also should be taken with a massive grain of salt.

      https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/iran-casualty-counts-us-funde...

    • JohnnyLarue4 hours ago
      They shouldn't be ignored, but they also should be taken with a massive grain of salt. This reporting has all the hallmarks of the US State Department manufacturing consent for yet another war.
    • pydry3 hours ago
      After WMDs i honestly thought america learned to be a bit more skeptical of poorly sourced "pretext for war" stories which emerge in the context of a military build up.

      E.g. like reading the sentence:

      >TIME has been unable to independently verify these figures.

      And going "hmmm".

      • Aurornis3 hours ago
        > E.g. like reading the sentence:

        > >TIME has been unable to independently verify these figures.

        > And going "hmmm".

        Journalists couldn’t possibly independently verify large scale death counts, especially at this point.

        That doesn’t mean they’re wrong or propaganda.

        If you start “going hmmm” when journalists honestly report their own limitations then that’s just going to leave you more vulnerable to the psy-op peddlers who never give such disclaimers.

        • pydry3 hours ago
          MediaZona is one example of an organization that uses a large diversity of sources to assemble what looks like a very accurate Russian soldier casualty count. Their process is excellent.

          TIME magazine didnt do anything like that. They most likely got a call from the state department in between their Iran invasion planning meetings to say "hey, we've got a totally legit guy on the inside of rhe iranian ministry of health with an EXPLOSIVE story you wanna talk to him?"

          That guy will be getting paid to risk his life talking to the enemy and he will know that he shouldnt disappoint.

          The US paid all sorts of informants to provide information on WMDs and shockingly, they told the state department what it wanted to hear and TIME printed all of that nonsense too.

      • behnamoh3 hours ago
        You can already see them in the videos raiding hospitals to "finish off" the wounded... Or you can watch videos of hundreds of bodies in plastic bags if you need further proof that this massacre is actually happening on that place on the earth.
        • GordonS3 hours ago
          That doesn't prove who went around murdering police officers and random people, and destroying hospitals, banks, police stations and ambulances - it only proves it happened at all.
          • behnamoh2 hours ago
            It does prove who did it; when you see police officers, Hamas mercenaries, and IRGC forces shooting at people using machine guns, and then demand "bullet price" from the families of the dead before they return the corpses of their loved ones...
            • GordonS2 hours ago
              Please do share these supposed videos. Except, they don't exist, do they?

              > Hamas mercenaries

              Literally LOL'd at that! What an utter load of nonsense.

              • behnamohan hour ago
                There's a Persian saying that goes: "You can wake up an asleep person, but those who pretend they're asleep can't be awaken." I feel sorry for you, have a nice day with your ignorance.
              • alex1138an hour ago
                You are an absolutely terrible person
  • Bender4 hours ago
    I guess this will be a difficult question to ask. I have no doubt the numbers are high but there is something odd about the videos that leak out. The sound of the guns are enhanced for psychological effect? and in the cases where a gunner on a truck is moving down a road purportedly mowing people down there is no blood on the road where the protestors had been standing, no bodies and we never see the people being shot. It's not like I want to see people being shot but I've also seen a lot of fake mass shooting videos in the past decade. There's no shortage of real uncensored footage of killing in Ukraine. Why is everything censored for Iran?
    • almogo4 hours ago
      Ukraine was historically more or less a free-for-all as far as front-line cinema is concerned.

      I have to imagine the situation in Iran is more difficult for a few reasons:

      1. Gen AI is much better today than it was in 2022. So, both sides can generate much more realistic fakes.

      2. There was an article here on HN about Iran's internet slowly coming back on a whitelist basis. We're probably getting more pro-Government videos now than we were at the beginning of the current events.

      3. Further crackdown on Starlink minimizes authentic leaks (I only heard about this and have no way to confirm how impactful this really is)

      I'll add my own anecdotal agreement with your suspicion though - the footage coming out of Iran has been, for me, more difficult than other conflicts to piece together into a cohesive story. Western countries are claiming 30k+ dead, and while I don't necessarily reject the claim, the situation on the ground is still very blurry to me.

      • verdura_low3 hours ago
        Regarding the whitelist: is anyone working on getting the list?

        I am sure some people would like to know who’s on the whitelist.

    • aaomidi4 hours ago
      Because the internet is out so it’s extremely difficult to get the footage out.

      There is footage slowly trickling out.

    • GaggiX4 hours ago
      I don't like promoting gore websites but in watchpeopledie and search Iran you can count yourself at least hundreds of body from all the videos, often in a single location, usually the aftermath.
      • Bender2 hours ago
        Along that line 4chan is full of pictures and videos of all the MN shooting incidents and even memes already but not a single Iranian video.
    • blogabegonija4 hours ago
      [dead]
  • MPSimmons4 hours ago
    How many on the government side, I wonder. There are wars that haven't killed so many people. This seems like another revolution.
  • baxtr3 hours ago
    Interestingly, someone like pg who is so outspoken about other things going on in the Middle East hasn’t said a word about the atrocities.

    How come I wonder?

  • bijant3 hours ago
    At this point I don't believe anything about the situation unless I hear it firsthand from eyewitnesses. The amount of GenAI fakes circulating not just on insta and x but more importantly between iranian-born Boomers on Whatsapp that then gets recycled into: "My aunt in LA knows people in a Tehran Hospital and has seen videos of mass casualties amongst security forces/ protesters" is off the charts. Obviously until the internet gets turned on again the aunt has no privileged access to her sources in Tehran and can't have seen anything other then the same AI-slop everyone else has "seen" but for people who haven't been following the genAI developments closely its hard to understand how any of those videos could be anything other than authentic anyways. Even reputable Media have started to publish (and sometimes retract) those video and even if you don't care about Iran at all you should pay attention because this is a case study of something we'll be living with for a while. For the many Millions of people outside of Iran, like me, who for one reason or another have a personal interest in this clusterfruck of a Regime finally being EOLed, it's incredibly frustrating to witness the degree of incompetency at all levels of the US Gov in carrying out something the US used to lead the world in (regime change). While under Obama there was the consideration of plausible deniability at play constraining the work that could be carried out, the current admin has no such excuse. There seems to have been little to no contingency planning to aid the people we armed in case the Regime shut-off the internet (which they have done before) other than handing out easily tracked starlink terminal. Half of Tehran has a recent iPhone and satellite coms on these devices could easily have been enabled by the US Gov. Instead we have US officials on fox news producing clip after clip where they proudly detail the regime change operations they fail to carry out, which iranian state TV just have to translate for free pro-Regime Propaganda. Maybe the strategy is to scare all iranian propagandists that they'll be unemployed because their jobs have been outsourced to the US because otherwise you certainly would not have these same US officials on FOX to then explain why shooting peaceful protesters is great and totally a-OK and what democracy looks like.
  • _DeadFred_43 minutes ago
    Queue Hacker News deflecting/minimizing the situation in Iran and instead talking about the US/Israel.

    I sucks that no one has morals or consistant stances anymore. Just political positions to push specific agendas.

    12 instances of Israel already on a thread about 30 THOUSAND HUMAN BEINGS murdered in Iran.

  • doughnutstracks3 hours ago
    Despite feeling deeply for Iranians living under this oppressive regime and in the aftermath of the protests, I can’t help but think about how current media coverage of Iran compares to the way major outlets amplified questionable claims in the lead-up to the Iraq War in 2003.
  • tobrien64 hours ago
    The Islamic clampdown on the Iranian people has gone on for too long. The younger generation is willing to die for their freedom. The internet is locked down, satellite comms jammed with Chinese tech. The streets smell of blood. Police and imported Arab thugs open fire into crowds of protestors. Hospitals are systematically raided to finish off the wounded.

    It will be his greatest act as president if Trump sends real assistance, as the Iranian people are begging him. It will save countless lives. Either way, in the end, Persia will rise again, the lion will raise its head, the brutality of Islamic oppression will be cast off, and the world will come to know the true spirit of these people.

    • 31337Logic3 hours ago
      I hope you're right.
    • 3 hours ago
      undefined
  • throwaway2903 hours ago
    I am curious why Iran protest news remain on front page but US protest news are immediately killed.
  • JumpinJack_Cash3 hours ago
    Somebody should traffic an 8bag of coke into the U.S. with the name of the Ayatollah on the bag.

    Then I'm sure the full might and wrath of the U.S. military would be unleashed upon him and his regime...

  • frellus3 hours ago
    Can we stop calling it a "protest" and call it what it is: a revolutionary uprising.

    Labeling it a "protest" is equating it to what a bunch of clustered people holding stupid billboards and yelling into microphones. This isn't that.

    • orwin2 hours ago
      It started like that though. It was a protest, then government military start killing people, again, and again, and once deadly violence is on the board, protester takes arms and shoot too. Then bystanders get killed, protesters get killed, some government military police get killed, and here if the government still has a bit of morality left, you get Euromaidan. If its the military, you get what happened in Nepal.

      However, if none of that happen, you have a civil war.

    • tokai2 hours ago
      Lets not all change our word use because it doesn't align with your narrow definition of protest.
  • frellus3 hours ago
    Can we stop calling this a "protest" and start calling it a revolutionary uprising? Because that's what it is seems it is to me.
    • orwin2 hours ago
      What's the difference? they protested the government, got shot at. Then after a few month of getting killed while protesting, they chose to retaliate. Is it when the protesters retaliate that you call a protest an uprising?
  • inshard4 hours ago
    Very tragic. May the souls that gave their lives for freedom live in the memory of the people of Iran as a blessing.
  • 2Gkashmiri2 hours ago
    Someone from kashmir.

    Can You IMAGINE 30k deaths? A genocide happened in gaza and it took months, i think a year to reach 30k target and you are saying iran judt straight up killed 30k civilians in 1-2 days?

  • chrisjj4 hours ago
    By now we should be able to determine the number by satellite imagery.
  • OutOfHere3 hours ago
    If Trump continues to get his way, this will be the condition in the US.
  • metalman3 hours ago
    zero links, article states "unable to verify claims" standard regime change fake hype news from the psychos running the genocide
  • globalnode4 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • thomassmith654 hours ago
      Without details to explain what aspects of the article are objectionable, this comment just leaves the original poster feeling bad, and other HN readers confused.
    • lr4444lr4 hours ago
      On what basis do you call it "slop"? I would agree that it's not much relevant to HN, but it seems to report that the number is at odds with most other figures.
      • AnimalMuppet4 hours ago
        The bar for submitting something to HN is quite low. (Just make an account. I think that's it - I don't think you need any particular karma level.) So, yes, you can get "slop" here - off topic, shilling, trolling, and just generally low-quality stuff. And lots of off topic.

        And I generally oppose off topic stuff! But this story has kind of died out in the mainstream press, and I think it's a really important story. (But then, I suppose everybody who posts off topic stuff thinks that theirs is a really important story...)

  • mc323 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • 3 hours ago
      undefined
    • baby3 hours ago
      Why US campus? Everyone can protest about something, did you do it?
    • SonOfKyuss3 hours ago
      Why would we protest? Our government isn’t supporting this action and in fact is considering direct intervention
      • mikeyouse3 hours ago
        It’s the latest talking point from ‘the Right’ to undermine US protests. You can see it multiple times in this very thread. Transparent and hollow.
      • lingrush43 hours ago
        Because innocent people are dying and western governments are capable of intervening but choose not to.

        Your line of argument is an interesting one though. You're tacitly admitting that western protesters don't actually care about innocent Palestinians. They're just using Palestine as an excuse to undermine their governments.

        • krapp3 hours ago
          A lot of American support for the Palestinian movement is a proxy for leftist anti-imperialist and anti-government sentiment, yes. Many Americans had never even heard of Palestinians or Gaza or any of it until it went viral on social media.

          If the US weren't actively involved in aiding and abetting Israel's genocide of Palestinians, awareness and protest would probably be at about the level it that was for China's persecution of Uyghurs. Not nothing, but also not particularly radical.

        • SonOfKyuss2 hours ago
          > Your line of argument is an interesting one though. You're tacitly admitting that western protesters don't actually care about innocent Palestinians. They're just using Palestine as an excuse to undermine their governments.

          That’s not true and definitely not the “gotcha” you’re looking for. Americans protesting on American soil, the actions of the American government supporting atrocities against lives they do care about seems perfectly reasonable. We’re not protesting against Iran in America because there’s no government action we want to stop. The administration already opposes Irans actions and has publicly stated that military intervention is being considered. There’s just a lot less for Americans to be mad at their government in this situation. That doesn’t mean people aren’t upset. They’re just not taking to the streets because there is less of a reason to ask the government to change direction they’re already going in. I’m not sure what is so hard to understand about that unless you’re intentionally being obtuse.

    • Noaidi3 hours ago
      Why would a US college student care about a revolution where the US is not involved in providing the weapons that are doing the killing?

      You think that what is happening in Iran, and the genocide by the united states and Israel of the Palestinians is the same?

    • watwut3 hours ago
      Interesting bad faith attempt.

      Really, it is mysterious why would American students protest against something America actively does and supports, something their schools support rather then ... something another country not actively supported by America does.

  • afroboy4 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • CrzyLngPwd4 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • ogogmad4 hours ago
    That's way higher than I thought. Is there any evidence? Dresden was 25,000, and the V2 and V1 campaigns had less numbers. So this is high even for an aerial bombing campaign.

    [edit] I don't get why I'm getting downvoted. Are people making assumptions because I mentioned Dresden? Get a hold of yourself.

    • jltsiren3 hours ago
      Aerial bombardments typically target areas with ~0.01 people/square meter, and those people are often in hardened shelters. A protest may have 1–4 people/square meter out in the open. Attacks targeting the latter cause orders of magnitude more casualties for the same amount of firepower.

      And the crowd itself can be deadly if it gets too dense, due to panic or otherwise. For example, there have been at least two crowd collapse events with >1000 deaths in the Mecca pilgrimage.

      • verdura_low2 hours ago
        To add to this, Dresden was just one city. We’re talking about nationwide protests in a country of 90 million people.
    • iammjm3 hours ago
      I think it's just a stupid comparison. Aerial bombing campaign on a single city 80 years ago vs government coming down on protesters distributed in over 100 cities was the best reference you could find to doubt these numbers?
      • ogogmad3 hours ago
        You shouldn't think that everyone has a fine-tuned sense of scale for how many protesters a government can kill in a short amount of time.
      • 3 hours ago
        undefined
    • orwin2 hours ago
      first: it's not in one day, it is over three weeks. Second, the 25000 is an extrapolation. Basically the Iran Islamic republic has a tendency to admit to 10-15% of the death toll, and they admit 3000 death.

      It is a fair question.

    • npn4 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • ogogmad3 hours ago
        > You can't ask that here.

        Why?