212 pointsby JumpCrisscross5 hours ago25 comments
  • nashashmi3 hours ago
    > Currently, openpilot performs the functions of Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) and Automated Lane Centering (ALC). openpilot can accelerate, brake automatically for other vehicles, and steer to follow the road/lane. [1]

    [Some of the] Cars that are currently supported already have "smart cruise" and "lane follow". Why then use a third-party self-driving system?

    [1] https://comma.ai/openpilot#:~:text=Currently%2C%20openpilot%...

    • sathackr2 hours ago
      It's infinitely better than HDA2 at tracking and maintaining lanes.

      HDA2 cuts out if there is a break in lines more than 50ft or so.

      Openpilot can track the slightest of roads, even able to follow off-road the tracks in grass from a leading car.

      It does basically everything HDA2 does and then some, and does it much better.

      It has a driver-monitoring camera that you control, that monitors for inattentiveness which is much more effective than simple wheel-torque based sensors.

    • nodjaan hour ago
      > My <device> already comes with built in <software> why would I install anything else?

      Top voted comment on hacker news btw.

      Ok that was probably unnecessarily snarky I hope you don't take offense, but it seems the hacker spirit has been fading more often from this site, we used to replace stuff with inferior versions just to see if we could.

    • numpad0an hour ago
      Commercial implementations back when this launched was vastly inferior to it, if users' accounts are to be believed. Obvious signs of too high P in PID and such.

      Tesla Autopilot was always available, but they were as sketchy as it always had been. Shoving the head into road barriers and fire trucks with rear ends that were less car looking especially to pre-LLM image recognition models.

      OpenPilot also allow retrofits. People who own 2017-2023ish cars, shipped between the times after self driving hype took off and before command signature enforcement was widely implemented, can DIY self driving without re-buying the whole car, put aside whether it's legal or whether you should.

    • pkaeding2 hours ago
      Maybe this doesn't beep at you if you take your hands off the wheel?

      And people think that is a good thing?

      • UnlockedSecrets2 hours ago
        My car judges it if I have put in any manual inputs over the past 10 or so seconds then it starts complaining. Which is seemingly reasonable however there's plenty of nearly perfect straight aways where there's nothing to do for it or me.

        It would be nice if it had a system where if it isn't doing anything, it doesn't think I'm not doing anything either.

        • xethos21 minutes ago
          Except those straight, boring roads that require no input are also exactly where and when I most want to use autopilot. This means I have to manually adjust to keep the car happy, instead of letting the well-aligned car just carry on. Autopilot ends up being more work, and more annoying, than just driving myself
      • chrischen2 hours ago
        It beeps at you if you stop paying attention, which is superior. Hands on wheel is an arbitrary design decision more likely to placate what a layman would think is necessary to ensure safe AI steering.
      • sieabahlpark2 hours ago
        [dead]
    • taneq2 hours ago
      I wondered the same thing but after trying a few oem attempts, there’s definitely huge room for improvement. Lane following isn’t very ‘smart’ and doesn’t take context into account (ie. changing position in the lane based on clearance from other vehicles, potholes, upcoming curves etc.)
    • sandworm1012 hours ago
      Lane follow? Does it have lane discovery? There was snow on my commute this morning. 4-land highway was basically follow the leader. Pick some line where you think there is the most traction and stick with it. I have yet to see footage of an autodrive system in such a situation.
      • ranon2 hours ago
        Yes, models have been laneless for awhile
    • CamperBob23 hours ago
      I have a car with smart cruise, but there's plenty of room for improvement. It isn't very smart at determining when it can avoid braking, such as when a car well ahead has slowed for a right turn. It also brakes too aggressively when someone cuts in front of me on the highway, in situations where just lifting off the gas would be better.

      It also times out very quickly when traffic comes to a complete standstill, requiring manual intervention to get going again, and it doesn't give any indication to the driver when that occurs.

      If these things bothered me much more than they do, I'd be interested in comma.ai as a possible solution. As it stands, the OEM radar cruise control is "Eh, good enough, I guess."

  • sebmellen4 hours ago
    Comma is my favorite “AI” company. Really incredible piece of tech in a tiny package, and it truly improves your life to have it.

    I wish it worked with my Mitsubishi Outlander, but just having it on my Corolla is enough. Their supported brand list will definitely factor into my next car buying decision.

    • ab_testing3 hours ago
      How is the experience on the Corolla. How much can it do by itself?
    • hahahahhaah3 hours ago
      I like Comma. I like geohot (I wouldn't want to work for him I imagine it is intense) but I like the contrary attitude and also the product as seen as demoed on youtube.
      • smallerize3 hours ago
        He hasn't been running comma.ai since '22, and even left the board just in November.
        • hahahahhaah3 hours ago
          sorry not been keeping up. thanks for the info
          • rvz3 hours ago
            He (geohot) is still the President of Comma.ai and still owns the majority of the company.
  • testfoobar3 hours ago
    Really impressive tech. I don't understand the insurance ramifications of installing and using this system.

    Comma's website links to a 7 year old reddit thread: https://comma.ai/support#will-my-insurance-cover-my-car-with...

    As a driver, if in an accident, could someone reasonably assert that you were not paying attention?

    • zeroq3 hours ago

        - InsureCo, how may I help you?
        - Hey, I want to ask about installing a self driving module in my car...
        - Sure, you mean Tesla upgrade?
        - No, another one.
        - Another one?
        - Yeah, you remember that kid that hacked Playstation?
    • sitharus3 hours ago
      At the moment in every jurisdiction I’m aware of the driver is always considered as “in charge” of the vehicle no matter what assistance functions are being used. It’s the driver’s responsibility to avoid collisions in all cases.

      If you have a collision and your vehicle is judged at fault by whatever authority does it in your area the you are liable.

      • digitalPhonix3 hours ago
        Mercedes Drive Pilot (“SAE Level 3”) is certified on some very specific stretches of insterstate in California to not require the driver to be responsible.

        https://www.mbusa.com/en/owners/manuals/drive-pilot

        Requirements:

        - Stop and go traffic (or less than 40mph?)

        - On some specific sections of highway

        - Driver doesn’t need to monitor but must be ready to take over with 15(?) seconds of the system requesting

        > Mercedes-Benz is assuming liability for any crashes or incidents that occur while the autonomous system is active

        • mannykannotan hour ago
          That last criterion most assuredly will not be matched here.
        • knowitnone32 hours ago
          that's really dumb of Mercedes take on that liability for little benefit - sell more cars, make more profit? My prediction is MB drops this or goes bankrupt in the next 10 years.
          • josephcsiblean hour ago
            They need to take on that liability to let the human driver stop paying attention, and being able to do that is huge.
          • hcazzan hour ago
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiB8GVMNJkE

            Not sure you understand how "The Formula" works. The profit generated by adding this feature will outweigh the cost of any resulting accidents that they take liability for.

            A less pessimistic way of phrasing it is that within the boundaries they've defined, their self driving system is so much better than a human that they're willing to assume responsibility for crashes deemed "at-fault" while using the system.

            Not intentionally trying to compare that with other automakers, but Mercedes is the only "you can buy now" vehicle (ignoring robotaxis/Waymo/others) that assumes liability with those capabilities. Until other automakers provide that legal guarantee, they're parlor tricks at best that will continue to get folks killed in scenarios that they otherwise wouldn't had they been actually paying attention.

      • charcircuit3 hours ago
        What if there is no driver because the car is self driving?
        • gegtik3 hours ago
          I assume the same as if the car owner put a brick on the gas pedal and there was no driver when it had an accident
          • bad_haircut723 hours ago
            Found the Chief Legal Officer for Waymo
          • chihuahua2 hours ago
            "Your honor, I don't know how to explain this to you any more simply. I wasn't driving, there was a brick on the gas pedal. It's not my responsibility, not my fault!"
            • fc417fc8022 hours ago
              Okay but what if I install servos and ask Claude Code to operate the vehicle for me?
        • sitharus3 hours ago
          Well that will depend on your local laws, but to my knowledge except for certain authorised pilot programs all cars on the road must have a driver.

          Where I live if you are in the driver’s seat no matter if you were actually actively driving you are considered to be the driver. This has been well established here in drink-driving cases, but you’d have to ask a lawyer for your area.

    • overfeed2 hours ago
      In an accident, culpability cannot transfer to a computer ostensibly running under your supervision. As a driver, you likely sign away all claims to blaming CommaAI when you accept the EULA & ToS updates.
    • wing-_-nuts3 hours ago
      I mean, just like with a Tesla, the driver is responsible for the actions taken by the car, which means you do need to be paying attention, hands on the wheel, ready to take over at all times.

      We don't yet have the legal framework to say 'Sue company x, it wasn't my fault!' You get sued, then you have a very uphill battle to turn around and try to sue the company that provided the 'self driving' functionality because companies put all sorts of 'I totally accept liability for using this' in the T&C of their products.

    • hahahahhaah3 hours ago
      I guess it would be like open source cruise control. In that they could assert some probability of incorrect installation that caused the accident.
  • nomel3 hours ago
    There's a few Lex Fridman podcasts with George Hotz, the founder. Highly recommend them:

    #31 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwcYp-XT7UI

    #132 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L3gNaAVjQ4

    #387 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNrTrx42DGQ

    • jyscao2 hours ago
      No idea how Fridman manages to bring on the type of high profile guests that he does. Guy does not ask good questions and has the charisma of a wet rag,
      • Powdering70822 hours ago
        Yeah I loved the guests he had, but eventually had to stop listening to him
      • danderschan hour ago
        Guests don't care about charisma, they care who your previous guests were. He early on got Elon Musk as a guest (AFAIK by writing a paper that was overly favorable to Tesla) and managed to snowball that into a big podcast.

        Also guests agreeing to go on your show means they already want to talk about something, so in a way it's more important to shut up than ask good questions.

  • jimmar3 hours ago
    Seeing things like, "<h2 id="new-driving-model">New driving model</h2>" on their list of latest releases does not inspire a lot of confidence. Yes, the HTML tags are displayed on the page. Some basic quality assurance on the website would help me trust the quality assurance applied to their product offering.

    https://comma.ai/openpilot

    • compootr3 hours ago
      I noticed this issue and someone else mentioned it to them too. I think it's cheeky because it's been like that for a while
    • _3453 hours ago
      Yeah but... yeah.
  • ripped_britches2 hours ago
    I'm sure the technology is great, but what would be really great for me to use theoretically use it would be for it to be if the company was liable if it caused an at-fault accident. I don't know much about the law around this, but I comfortably get in a Waymo all the time because I have some intuition about it that tells me that their lawyers are scared shitless of killing someone. It's a hard sell for me when it says "self-install at your own risk" but I appreciate the effort.
    • knowitnone32 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • tomhowan hour ago
        Please don't fulminate on HN. The guidelines make it clear we're trying for something better here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      • ddalexan hour ago
        > anyone stupid enough to install and use this on the road

        I can't believe that people are willing to put their lives in the hands of a DIY solution with no convincing acceptance tests.

  • bhadass3 hours ago
    there is also sunnypilot, which is a fork of openpilot, and supports more behaviors and cars: https://github.com/sunnypilot/sunnypilot
    • _blkan hour ago
      What's different? From the README I only get that it's trying to match comma's safety as closely as possible - whatever that means
  • justapassengeran hour ago
    It’s NOT self driving. It’s level 2 driving assist. Really good one, but that has nothing to do with self driving. You are driving the car all the time, it’s only assist that can (and will) try to kill you (and others) with 0 notice if you don’t pay attention.
    • ddalexan hour ago
      > Really good one ... that can (and will) try to kill you (and others) ...

      I'm afraid to ask about the bad ones.

      • justapassenger10 minutes ago
        Ironically - bad ones will effectively try to kill you less.

        That’s the thing about any automations that are just aides. Humans are extremely bad at monitoring machines, and if aide system is good enough that trick you into thinking it’s actually stand alone and in control, you get complacent very fast, stop pay attention as you convince yourself that automation got it.

        So bad level 2 driver assists are so bad, that no one will get complacent, as they give you only very minor help. Really good ones (like comma) can trick you into thinking that they can do much more than they’re designed to do.

  • srameshc3 hours ago
    Can someone with technical knowledge explain the key differences between the assisted driving technologies used by Waymo, Tesla, and comma.ai?
    • ranonan hour ago
      Waymo put a ton of sensors, including lidar and cameras, to create a truly driverless experience. Tesla put a ton of cameras to make a mostly driverless experience (but when you need a driver you NEED a driver). Comma strapped a cellphone cam to the windshield to make a semi driverless experience on straightish roads, and a driver must take over when anything complex happens. Source: very happy comma.ai user for many years now
  • frakkingcylons3 hours ago
    When one of my coworkers bought a used car, he went out of his way to buy a model year that was compatible with Comma. He has lots of praise for it.
  • t1234s2 hours ago
    OEMs would be smart to donate money to this
    • fc417fc8022 hours ago
      It would be smart but as I understand they are doing the opposite, taking measures to lock down the electronics in future vehicles. Many (most?) of them have already been thwarting owner access to certain diagnostics for years.

      We badly need right to repair and right to tinker laws. Or better yet a "thou shall not employ DRM against the legal owner of a device" commandment.

    • rootusrootus2 hours ago
      That would be helpful for keeping the company alive. At this point it's a dead end.
    • positron262 hours ago
      Anyone who hates driving, being stuck in traffic, anyone who benefits when the cost of transportation is cheaper, anyone who hates insurance, all of society benefits. In some parallel universe self driving and fusion are both crash projects receiving well administered social scale funding. Lots of things are. It is somewhat miraculous that we don't all live in this conclusion, realizing these huge value creation opportunities by investing aggressively in the upstream tech. There is a horse I would very much like to drown for only a few million USD.
      • zoeysmithe2 hours ago
        None of that is solved by automated driving. You want public trains, BRT bus systems, trams, etc. The ideal universe is you stepping on public trans, not piloting various rube goldberg-esque machines that are far more dangerous and will always contribute to traffic and "one more lane" does not work.
        • fc417fc8022 hours ago
          Sure, public transit can be nice. But so is owning my own vehicle that isn't subject to routes, schedules, and minimal luggage constraints. I'd much rather hang out and read a book or play a video game than babysit a vehicle in stop and go traffic for half an hour. Even if traffic is moving at a decent clip I'd still rather do something else.
  • julianeon4 hours ago
    This is awesome. I hope this technology continues to advance and decrease in price - but it's already a great value at this one.
  • Mountain_Skies4 hours ago
    Wonder if it will be able to work with the Slate pickup when that comes out. Seems like it would be a perfect pairing if the Slate has enough control exposed to it.
  • StevenNunez4 hours ago
    Ran into this a few days ago while looking for a way out of the subscription hell of self driving offerings. Very excited to watch this space!
  • LoganDark2 hours ago
    Huh, no love for the Toyota bZ / Subaru Solterra. I wonder if there's a reason or if just nobody's gotten to it yet. (It does have good built-in ACC.)
    • rootusrootus2 hours ago
      Some cars it does not support because nobody has been interested in testing it out. Some cars will never be supported because they are using an encrypted CANBUS. The list of cars on that list goes up every year. Eventually no current models will be supportable.
      • dymk2 hours ago
        They’re adding new models all the time
    • numpad0an hour ago
      It requires steering and cruise control to be able to be controlled by the random pieces of code downloaded from GitHub.

      So a 1920s Fords are out, and 2035 BYD flying cars with post-quantum cryptographic command signature enforcement are out too. Toyota bZ sits somewhere in the middle of those. IIRC they got past some types of Toyota security keys but not all.

  • tootie3 hours ago
    This runs with just a single front-facing camera?
    • rootusrootus2 hours ago
      Depends on the car what it has access to. It may leverage radar data, for example. Some cars (Ford Lightning for example) it only does lateral (steering) control, longitudinal control is still under the control of the OEM adaptive cruise.
    • plun92 hours ago
      Looks like there are 3 cameras on the Comma 4. There's a narrow FoV camera facing forward for distant objects.
  • rvz3 hours ago
    8 years later, comma.ai is still standing and operational despite several VC backed competitors raising significantly more than Comma and those competitors (except for Tesla) are now no longer in business.

    People here have no idea they are looking at a robotics and AI company which that is Comma.ai

  • alephnerd3 hours ago
    Are they still being extra and only asking about Putnam scores during interviews?
    • adeebshihadeh34 minutes ago
      we hire through https://comma.ai/leaderboard and i think our interviews are relatively chill

      never heard of anyone asking for anything like that

      • alephnerda minute ago
        This was back when you guys were either stealth or seed.
    • defrost3 hours ago
      Damn, well, that's me and Terence Tao out of luck.
  • coolgoose4 hours ago
    Still hoping Opel will be covered
  • neilv2 hours ago
    Will this be deployed mostly by those with the worst judgment?

    For example, that video is implied to be of some open source self-driving project, run on an active public road, at 42mph. A lot of sensible people would say that's irresponsible or unsafe, and not do it. Move-fast-and-break-things bros and narcissists, however, wouldn't see a problem.

  • letmeinhere3 hours ago
    I'm supposed to entrust my life and others' to this and they're bragging on their home page about GitHub stars?
  • sergiotapia4 hours ago
    I was in the market for this for my Pacifica but I couldn't figure out what this does exactly.

    Is it FSD basically?

    Is it just lane assist?

    Can I put an address in a map and it takes me there?

    Very hard to just get these concrete answers, maybe they just take the newbie experience for granted and assume people know these answers. Anyone who owns one of these can answer? Thank you!

    • zie4 hours ago
      Generic Openpilot out of the box is just super nice cruise control right now. So it can do longitudinal and latitudinal control. So it lane keeps, stays behind the car in front of you, etc.

      If you use Sunnypilot or one of the other friendly forks, you can do more, but it's not (currently) to the state of Tesla's FSD.

      Personally, I recommend buying it if you do a lot of road trips. It's amazing for that. In/around town it's only useful if you have a lot of stop and go traffic, like if you live in LA or other large car-centric city with a big commute.

    • jackmhny4 hours ago
      FAQs including - What is openpilot? - How does openpilot work?

      at https://comma.ai/support#what-is-openpilot

    • guyfromfargo4 hours ago
      I have one of these and I really enjoy it.

      No it’s not FSD. There is no navigation at all, you’re correct that it’s “just lane assist”. But the lane assist is next level.

      I take a few 1,000 mile plus road trips every year and the comma pays for itself every time. Using the stock lane assist, I’m constantly correcting it. The stock assist tries to take an exit, doesn’t handle curves well at all, and any construction or unusual road conditions it won’t work at all.

      With the Comma, on the highway it’s basically FSD. On my last 1000 mile trip I never had to disengage, only to pass and make turns.

      The biggest advantage is Comma allows you to be completely hands off the wheel. Where lane assist forces you to hold the wheel at all times.

      • geaibleu3 hours ago
        I still use old comma branch running with OnePlus phone on Subaru. It works really really well, even on snowy northern roads. The code, from firmware C to python is very well written as well, makes it easy to tune it to your driving habits.
  • tokyobreakfast3 hours ago
    I read at least one thread per day criticizing Tesla self-driving (which has hundreds of highly-paid engineers working on it) as unreliable vaporware, meanwhile I'm supposed to hack my car with some code off a GitHub repo?

    I'll be adding this to my list of 101 creative ways to die, behind basement apartment in Venice, Italy.

    • october81403 hours ago
      Creating an open source project makes a space for collaboration.

      There is a future where every manufacturer shares the same self-driving software.

      You already trust your privacy and financial security to open source projects. There is a future where you also trust it for a self driving car.

    • 9999000009992 hours ago
      My thoughts exactly.

      This is a horrible idea for a bunch of reasons.

      Real driver assist systems are tested for each car for millions of miles before release.

      I can imagine this as a toy on a recreational vehicle like an ATV, but it's outright reckless to put this on a real car.

    • bad_haircut723 hours ago
      Nobody is making you do this, they're not even charging you for it. Comparing to a company worth billions is disingenious.
      • tokyobreakfast3 hours ago
        Those companies worth billions like GM and Tesla perform extensive testing to prove to regulators their software isn't going to kill people and does not pose an unacceptable risk to other drivers on the road. Do you get to sidestep all that if you post your code to GitHub?
        • AngryData2 hours ago
          Why not? You are free to modify your vehicle in almost anyway you want as a consumer. Should someone putting some rain shields on their window require licensing and government testing for it because it might break off? Should generic brake pads or tierod ends require independent government testing or approval to be purchased and used?

          Regulations don't exist to save people from their own stupid mistakes, they exist to prevent systemic abuses and dangers to the public in the pursuit of profit. And we already know from endless examples that corporations will knowingly let people die if their decision will increase profit margins. Not to mention the public doesn't have the ability to properly test or verify corporate designed and sold devices. Unless corporations provide all documentation related to the design and materials and code used, they should have special restrictions and regulations beyond what the average person does.

          • tokyobreakfast2 hours ago
            >You are free to modify your vehicle in almost anyway you want as a consumer.

            States have window tinting laws to save people (and others around then) from their own idiocy.

        • derekja2 hours ago
          Yup, because you get to be personally responsible for any outcomes just like you would be if you were driving without ai assistance. If you aren’t comfortable building and testing an open source project then it isn’t for you.
          • tokyobreakfast2 hours ago
            People cry daily that cybertrucks should not be street legal because they do not meet EU safety regulations but gluing plastic gadgets to your window yourself and calling it "AI assistance" is okay because the driver is ultimately responsible?
        • geaibleu2 hours ago
          There have been dozens of fatalities due to Tesla self driving tech. As far as I know there haven't been any fatalities due to Comma tech.
        • october81402 hours ago
          Imagine if they all worked together on an open source project together.
          • rogerrogerr2 hours ago
            I’m imagining it… marathon meetings, everyone worried about code standards, someone made Claude rewrite the whole thing in Prologue and is zealously arguing for it in a 900-comment PR.

            And somehow half the time invested in the project is arguing about a code of conduct.

      • omoikane2 hours ago
        > they're not even charging you for it

        The github repo says to use openpilot, you will need to buy a comma device[1], which they sell at $999.[2]

        [1] https://github.com/commaai/openpilot?tab=readme-ov-file#usin...

        [2] https://comma.ai/shop/comma-four

      • subroutine2 hours ago
        True. But what about the guy next to me on the 405? Or the guy driving towards me on Camino Real? They are kinda "making me do this".
    • gkfasdfasdf2 hours ago
      Tesla FSD is awesome. I use it almost all the time now, it feels safer than me driving. It's like having a private chauffeur. My disengagements are mostly nav related.
    • fruitworks2 hours ago
      Are you really expecting me to read this paragraph all by myself? What am I supposed to do, load some text off of a Hacker News comment section? I only read paragraphs written by teams of highly paid experts.

      Sent From my iPhone

    • CamperBob23 hours ago
      Welcome to Hacker News, folks
  • Spikeysash3 hours ago
    I've been using comma 2 and now 3, for over 5 years and its my most favorite thing that I own. I would never buy an incompatible car going forward and got my tucson 2024 specifically for use with comma. I did once think I really wanted a tesla but I realized I just wanted self driving. I routinely tell everyone about comma + openpilot and am surprised I've never seen another driver on the road with one. People are still mostly in the stone age with respect to driving. Granted I think you are always solely responsible for your car when behind the wheel and should only treat it as an assistant but it sure does make driving chill.
  • Der_Einzige4 hours ago
    The CEO of comma.ai is an absolute class act and is basically the anti-elon musk.

    Comma is awesome, and more companies should be like them.

    • Rebelgecko4 hours ago
      I assumed he was a Musk disciple after he took a sabbatical to help with the twitter transition
    • androiddrew4 hours ago
      I know george hotz was the CEO. Who is it now?
    • plun93 hours ago
      He has commended Tesla Autopilot many times and has stated that their technology is much more similar to Tesla's rather than Waymo's.
    • nullfish4 hours ago
      geohotz, the infamous person who cracked the PS3 at the time. Been following him since that time and this project since he started it. His blogs have always teetered on the edge of unprofessional while remaining incredibly knowledgeable and insightful. Truly enjoy all his work.
      • CursedSilicon4 hours ago
        Minor correction. Geohot never cracked the PS3. Fail0verflow did.

        Geohot watched their talk. Rushed out a "hello world!" jailbroken firmware based on their talk and got the team in massive legal trouble for doing so

        • nullfish4 hours ago
          ah that's right, thanks for correcting.

          still, I think my other remark about his writings stand.