1) I'm pretty much never typing secrets into an SSH tunnel; these days if there's a secret I need to transmit over SSH I'm going to be copying and pasting it, which will not reveal info from keyboard timing. (Or rsync'ing a file, which ditto).
2) I'm not in a high-security environment where nation-states have an interest in sniffing my keystrokes.
3) I often open SSH connections to servers in other continents. Those underwater cables have massive bandwidth, but they're also in constant use by thousands upon thousands of people. So anything I can do to reduce my bandwidth by 100x is probably worth doing.
Any reason you can think of why I should not be setting ObscureKeystrokeTiming=no in my ~/.ssh/config?
(1) This sounds brittle. Are you really going to have a good mental model about what's secret when using ssh and refrain from typing those things? Seems to kinda defeat the idea of securing the channel. Aka optimism is not a form of security.
(2) There isn't a reason to think this is a difficult attack that only a powerful adversary could mount. Seems like a college lab level thing to me. And very amenable to AI help as well. Also here optimism is not a form of security.
(3) Saving 100x bandwidth on single keystrokes on an internet dominated by video traffic just because it's 100x doesn't make sense. And you should try to cultivate a mindset that steers you away from making compromises against security in this kind of context.
This should really be upstreamed as an option on the ssh library. Its good to default to sending chaff in untrusted environments, but there are plenty of places where we might as well save the bandwidth
I come from a world (yesteryear) where a computer had 1KB of RAM (ZX80). I've used links with modems rocking 1200 bps (1200 bits per second). I recall US Robotics modems getting to speeds of 56K - well that was mostly a fib worse than MS doing QA these days. Ooh I could chat with some bloke from Novell on Compuserve.
In 1994ish I was asked to look into this fancy new world wide web thing on the internet. I was working at a UK military college as an IT bod, I was 24. I had a Windows 3.1 PC. I telnetted into a local VAX, then onto the X25 PAD. I used JANET to get to somewhere in the US (NIST) and from there to Switzerland to where this www thing started off. I was using telnet and WAIS and Gopher and then I was apparently using something called "www".
I described this www thing as "a bit wank", which shows what a visionary I am!
Yo, 300 baud, checking in.
Do I hear 110?
+++ATH0
AT&C1&D2S36=7DT*70,,,5551212
These were almost definitely 8k baud.
ISDN essentially moved that line card into the consumer's phone. So ISDN "modems" talked directly digital, and got to 64kbit/s.
"Baud rate" refers to the symbol rate, that is the number of pulses of the analog signal per second. A signal that has two voltage states can convey two bits of information per symbol.
"Bit rate" refers to the amount of digital data conveyed. If there are two states per symbol, then the baud rate and bit rate are equivalent. 56K modems used 7 bits per symbol, so the bit rate was 7x the baud rate.
The client and server themselves obviously know the contents of the communications anyway, but the client option (and default behavior) expects this protection against someone that can capture network traffic in between. If there was some server side option they'd probably also want to include some sort of warning message that the option was requested but not honored, etc.
This feels like a really niche use case for SSH. Exposing this more broadly could lead to set-it-and-forget-it scenarios and ultimately make someone less secure.
https://github.com/openssh/openssh-portable/blob/d7950aca8ea...
Nobody is running TCP on that link, let alone SSH.
Crashing your drone is a learning experience ;)
Remote NSH over Mavlink is interesting, your drone is flying and you are talking to the controller in real time. Just don't type 'reboot'!
Life is difficult sometimes.
Another good trick for debugging ssh's exact behavior is patching in "None" cipher support for your test environment. It's about the same work as trying to set up a proxy but lets you see the raw content of the packets like it was telnet.
For terminal games where security does not matter but performance and scale does, just offering telnet in the first place can also be worth consideration.
I've used Claude a bit and it never speaks to me like that either, "Holy Cow!" etc. It sounds more annoying than interacting with real people. Perhaps AIs are good at sensing personalities from input text and doesn't act this way with my terse prompts..
I've used Claude for debugging system behavior, and I kind of agree with the author. While Claude isn't always directly helpful (hallucinations remain, or at least outdated information), it helps me 1) spell out my understanding of the system (see [1]) and 2) help me keep momentum by supplying tasks.
The entire point of rubber duck debugging is that the other side literally cannot respond - it's an inanimate object, or even a literal duck/animal.
https://gist.github.com/shmup/100a7529724cedfcda1276a65664dc...
The comment about Claude being pumped was a joke.
Disabling TCP_NODELAY would also reduce number of packets + be portable & simpler to implement - but would incur a latency penalty.
For people who don't feel like googling it:
1. You TCP_CORK a socket
2. You put data into it and the kernel buffers it
3. If you uncork the socket, or if the buffer hits MSS, the kernel sends the packet
Basically, the kernel waits until it has a full packet worth of data, or until you say you don't have any more data to send, and then it sends. Sort of an extreme TCP_YESDELAY.
See https://catonmat.net/tcp-cork for where I learned it all from.
I am aware of TCP_NODELAY (funny enough I recently posted about TCP_NODELAY to HN[1] when I was thinking about it for the same game that I wrote about here). But I think the latency hit from disabling it just doesn't work for me.
I got a kick out of this comment [0]. "BenjiWiebe" made a comment about the SSH packets you stumbled across in that thread. Obviously making the connection between what you were seeing in your game and this random off-hand comment would be insane (if you had seen the comment at all), but I got a smile out of it.
https://www.brendangregg.com/sshanalysis.html
The 2023 patch should finally fix that 2004 issue.
> I bet this mystery could gave been solved much quicker by simply looking at the packet capture in Wireshark.
For some people who are used to using Wireshark and who know what to look for, probably yes. For the vast majority of even technical people, probably not.
In my case, I did a packet capture of a single keystroke using tcpdump and imported it into Wireshark and I get just over 200 'Client: encrypted packet' and 'Server: encrypted packet' entries. Nothing useful there at all. If I tcpdump the entire SSH connection setup from scratch I get just as much useful information - nothing - but, oddly, fewer packets than my one keystroke triggered.
So yeah, I dislike LLMs entirely and dislike the reliance on LLMs that we see today, but in this case the author learned a lot of interesting stuff and shared it with us, whereas without LLMs he might have just shrugged and moved on.
Try debugging that shit. Thats right, debugging interfaces aren't safe, by some wellakshually security goon.
You want a real fun one to debug, is a SAML login to a webapp, with internal Oauth passthrough between multiple servers. Sure, I can decrypt client-server stuff with tools, but server-server is damn near impossible. The tools that work break SSL, and invalidate validation of the ssl.
Yes, Esri products suck. Bad.
Having to MITM a connection to snoop it is annoying, but the alternative appears to be still using unencrypted protocols from the 1970s within the limitations of a 6502 to operate life-safety equipment.
Anyway, VMs should not have authentication, it makes access sooo much easier. Also drop your IPs while you're at it. Might be useful for debugging later.
Particularly in today's political climate, encryption has only become more necessary.
Seems because dumping the session keys is not at all a common thing. It's just a matter of effort though - if someone put in the time to improve the SSH story for dissectors, most of the groundwork is there.
This looks like an actual productivity boost with AI.
> there's no built-in decryption
Is that because wireshark can't do that just from packet captures?
Well, not quite. I think it's more that nobody has taken the time to implement it. That's not to say such an implementation would automatically decrypt the traffic from a capture with no extra leg work, of course. Wireshark dissectors have user configurable preferences, and presumably this would be where captured secrets could be set for use. This is how it handles TLS decryption [1], which works beautifully.
That'd be like saying "I, an emergency room doctor, do not need AI assistance to interpret an EKG"
Consider that your expertise is atypical.
a) Has the knowledge to run tcpdump or similar from the command line
b) Has the ambition to document and publish their effort on the internet
c) Has the ability identify and patch the target behaviors in code
I argue that, had they not run to an LLM, they likely would have solved this problem more efficiently, and would have learned more along the way. Forgive me for being so critical, but the LLM use here simply comes off as lazy. And not lazy in a good efficiency amplifying way, but lazy in a sloppy way. Ultimately this person achieved their goal, but this is a pattern I am seeing on a daily basis at this point, and I worry that heavy LLM users will see their skill sets stagnate and likely atrophy.
I'm still waiting for a systems engineering tool that can log every layer, and handle SSL the whole pipe wide.
Im covering everything from strafe and ltrace on the machine, file reads, IO profiling, bandwidth profiling. Like, the whole thing, from beginning to end.
Theres no tool that does that.
Hell, I can't even see good network traces within a single Linux app. The closest you'll find is https://github.com/mozillazg/ptcpdump
But especially with Firefox, good luck.
We have only ourselves to blame that there aren't better tools (publicly) available. If I hypothetically (really!) had such a tool, it would be an advantage over every other SRE out there that could use it. Trying to sell it directly comes with more headaches than money, selling it to corporations has different headaches, open-sourcing it don't pay the bills, nevermind the burnout (people don't donate for shit). So the way to do it is make a pitch deck, get VC funding so you're able to pay rent until it gets acquired by Oracle/RedHat/IBM (aka the greatest hits for Linux tool acquisition), or try and charge money for it when you run out of VC funding, leading to accusations of "rug pull" and development of alternatives (see also: docker) just to spite you.
In the base case you sell Hashimoto and your bank account has two (three!) commas, but worst case you don't make rent and go homeless when instead you could've gone to a FAANG and made $250k/yr instead of getting paid $50k/yr as the founder and burning VC cash and eating ramen that you have to make yourself.
I agree, that would be an awesome tool! Best case scenario, a company pays for that tool to be developed internally, the company goes under, it gets sold as an asset and whomever buys it forms a compnay and tries to sell it directly and then that company goes under but that whomever finally open sources it because they don't want it to slip into obscurity but if falls into obscurity anyway because it only works on Linux 5.x kernels and can't be ported to the 6.x series that we're on now easily.
Granted... it would increase the cost (since you're adding reverse proxies) but it would be a quick way to get acceptable latency, rudimentary DDoS protection, and you could try different connection options independent of the main app's logic.
It would be hard to estimate how much latency you're adding with a SSH2 reverse proxy in this case, but it's probably lower than one might think.
The idea of letting Claude loose on my crypto[graphy] implementation is about the most frightening thing I've heard of in a while [though libnss is so craptastic, I can't see how it would hurt in that case.] But I loved this write-up. It was readable and explained the problem the OP was encountering and proposed solutions well.
I've been thinking about some stuff like this! Not being able to put my game behind Cloudflare[1] is a bummer. Substantial architectural overhead though.
> The idea of letting Claude loose on my crypto[graphy] implementation is about the most frightening thing I've heard of in a while [though libnss is so craptastic, I can't see how it would hurt in that case.]
I hear you, but FWIW the patch I was reverting was trivial (and it's also in the go crypto library, which is pretty easy to read). It's a couple-of-line change[2], and Claude did almost exactly what I would have done (I was tired and would have forgotten to shrink the handshake payload).
[1] This isn't strictly true, Cloudflare spectrum exists, but its pricing is an insane $1/GB last I checked.
[2] https://cs.opensource.google/go/x/crypto/+/833695f0a57b30373...
Now that's solving the problem the wrong way. If you really want that, send all typed characters at 50ms intervals, to bound the timing resolution.
Wouldn't this just change the packet interval from 20ms to 50ms? Or did you mean a constant stream of packets at 50ms intervals, nonstop?
I think the idea behind the current implementation is that the keystrokes are batched in 20ms intervals, with the optimization that a sufficiently long silence stops the chaff stream, so the keystroke timing is obfucated with an increased error bar of 20ms multiplied by number of chaff packets.
So a clock doesn't solve the problem. The amount of data sent on each clock pulse also tells you something about what was sent.
The Chaff packets already fire on a timer. They inject random extra fake keystrokes so you can't tell how many keystrokes were actually made. The only other way I can think of to solve that is by using a step function: Send one larger packet (fragmented or the same number of individual packets) on each clock pulse if the actual data is less than some N where N is the maximum keystrokes ever recorded with some margin. Effectively almost every clock pulse will be one packet (or set of packets) of identical size. Of course if you do that then you'll end up consuming more data over time than sending random amounts of packets.
Speaking of smoking guns, anybody else reckon Claude overuses that term a lot? Seems anytime I give it some debugging question, it'll claim some random thing like a version number or whatever, is a "smoking gun"
Btw, is the injection of "absolutely" and "in $YEAR" prevalent in other LLMs as well, or is it just in Gemini's dialect?
Grok, ChatGPT, and Claude all have these tics, and even the pro versions will use their signature phrases multiple times in an answer. I have to wonder if it's deliberate, to make detecting AI easier?
Maybe it has something to do with your profile/memories?
It's nauseating.
Looking back we already had similar problems, when we had to ask our colleagues, students, whomever "Did you get your proposed solution from the answers part or the questions part of a stackoverflow article?" :-0
Considering what these LLMs bring to the table, I think a little tolerance for their cringe phrases is in order.
Oh shoot! A shooting.
So the TL;DR of this post is: don't change this setting unless you know what you're doing.
For example, "nc" (netcat) is pre-installed on all platforms where ssh is.
There are two issues with it:
- a primary is not a totality: if "security is the #1 consideration for SSH", that implies there's a #2, maybe even a #3 and so on consideration. So the question that follows becomes tautological: "but if the author doesn't need security, why use ssh?" -> surely for one or more of the #2, #3, etc. considerations, right?
- overabstraction (*): you ended up strawmanning the author. What they had issue with was keystroke timing obfuscation, which is a privacy feature. Timing attacks are (in part) a privacy concern, and privacy is a security concern, yes, but security is not just privacy concern, and privacy concerns are not just about timing attacks; these groups are not equal. For example, they might very well want the transmitted keypresses themselves to remain confidential, or they might very well want to retain cryptographic assurance of their integrity. These are security features they can continue to utilize by sticking with SSH.
All of this is to say, it's not even necessarily them using SSH for a hypothetical #2 or #3 (...etc...) reason, but likely because they still very much want to make use of large chunks of #1, which disabling keypress obfuscation does not actually rid SSH of, only at most weakens it in ways they clearly seem to be okay with.
(*) although if I zoom out enough, this is once again just "a primary is not a totality", just implicitly
This is technically incorrect, because Windows now includes SSH too!
Also I was unfamiliar with SSH being vulnerable in the past to keystroke timing!
Found your problem.
But it is an interesting world where you can casually burrow into a crypto library and disable important security features more easily than selecting the right network layer solution.
The problems you run into when doing things you shouldn't do are often really fun.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42342382
You should feel free to explore / abuse all options :)
However, there are existing libraries for exactly this use case - see https://github.com/ValveSoftware/GameNetworkingSockets
I guess QUIC libraries would also work.
running without congestion control means that you avoid slowstart. but at a certain rate you run into poorly defined 'fairness' issues where you can easily negatively impact other flows. past that point, you can actually self-interfere and cause excessive losses for yourself.
quic uses congestion control, but uses latency estimates and variance as a signal to back off. it still imposes an ordering on a per-stream basis. so it might not be ideal either.
sctp has a mode which supports reliable and unordered, which might be something to consider
so really - if you care about latency and have a different reliability model, its worth unpacking all these considerations and using them to select your transport layer or even consider writing a minimal one yourself
Is this not a performance consideration?
Either way, using plain old SSH means a metric bajillion computers have a client for your game built in.
When making this statement, are you taking into account that SSH encrypts the traffic by default?
And in this situation, the amount of encrypted payload in each packet is 36 bytes which is ~40x less than a full packet of ~1500 bytes. You would almost surely hit packet per second limits before you hit payload throughput limits at these small sizes.
Encryption is slow when compared to data throughput you can get with a properly designed transport stack, but that is because it is in comparison to 100 Gbps per core even with no hardware offload. Anything less than ~10 Gbps/1 million packets per second (ignoring other bottlenecks, so only the software transport is the limit) is not merely unoptimized, it is pessimized.
please never do that (in production)
if anyone half way serious tries they _will_ be able to break you encryption end find what you typed
this isn't a hypothetical niche case obfuscation mechanism, it's a people broke SSH then a fix was found case. I don't even know why you can disable it tbh.
[1] https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~daw/papers/ssh-use01.pdf
I'm baffled about this "security feature". Besides from this only being relevant to timing keystrokes during the SSH session, not while typing the SSH password, I really don't understand how can someone eavesdrop on this? They'd have to have access to the client or server shell (root?) in order to be able to get the keystrokes typing speed. I've also never heard of keystroke typing speed hacking/guessing keystrokes. The odds are very low IMO to get that right.
I'd be much more scared of someone literally watching me type on my computer, where you can see/record the keys being pressed.
And the timing is still sensitive. [1] does suggest that it can be used to significantly narrow the possible passwords you have, which could lead to a compromise. Not only that, but timing can be sensitive in other ways --- it can lead to de-anonymization by correlating with other events, it can lead to profiling of what kind of activity you are doing over ssh.
So this does solve a potentially sensitive issue, it's just nuanced and not a complete security break.
[1] https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~daw/papers/ssh-use01.pdf
- you are listening to an SSH session between devices
- and you know what protocol is being talked over the connection (i.e. what they are talking about)
- and the protocol is reasonably predictable
then you gain enough information about the plaintext to start extracting information about the cipher and keys.
It's a non-trivial attack by all means but it's totally feasible. Especially if there's some amount of observable state about the participants being leaked by a third party source (i.e. other services hosted by the participants involved in the same protocol).
You're guessing a cipher key by guessing typed characters with the only information being number of packets sent and the time they were sent at. Good luck. :)
So the "real" keystrokes are 100% the same but the fake ones which are never seen except as network packets are what is randomized.
It's actually really clever.
(I wouldn't recommend switching the option off for anything that could transit the Internet or be on a LAN with untrusted devices. I am one of those old sods who doesn't believe in the max-paranoia setting for things like "my own house," especially since if I dial that knob all the way up the point is moot; they've already compromised every individual device at the max-knob setting, so a timing attack on my SSH packet speed is a waste of effort).
> And they’re sent to servers that advertise the availability of the [email protected] extension. What if we just…don’t advertise [email protected]?
The extension is "ping@openssh.com." It shows up in the blog reliably for me across several browsers and devices.
One thing you notice if you have ADSL is that some services are built as if slower connections matter and others are not. Like Google's voice and audio chat services work poorly but most of the others work well. Uploading images to Mastodon, Bluesky, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram and Nextdoor is reliable, but for Tumblr you have to try it twice. I don't what they are doing wrong but they are doing something wrong and not finding out what they're doing wrong because they're not testing and they're not listening to users.
Nobody consulted me about their decision not to run fiber by my house. If some committee decides to make ssh bloated they are, together with the others, conspiring to steal my livelihood and I think it would be fair for me to sue them for the $50k it would take to run that fiber myself.
It's OK if you work for Google where there is limitless dark fiber but what about people in African countries?
It's the typical corporate attitude where latency never matters: Adobe thinks it is totally normal that it takes 1-5s for a keystroke to appear when you are typing into Dreamweaver.
But you cannot just sue a company because their network connected software doesn't work well on slow networks. Let alone a project like OpenSSH. It would be like me suing a game studio because my PC doesn't meet their listed minimum requirements to play the game.
A better analogy is a bank redlining neighborhoods. The cost to run fiber to difficult rural locations pays itself easily if you look at a 25-year time span and is an order of magnitude less than building a new housing unit on the West Coast.
If you want a “1990s” mode, add it yourself or pay some to do it for you.
This is funny to me, because ADSL used to be the fast thing, as opposed to dialup modems.
I mean, for modern version of Openssh it's not exactly wrong. The failure was to tell you why that is the normal behavior.
Switching to telnet instead of SSH might be an option.
Step one, run https://www.psc.edu/hpn-ssh-home/introduction/ instead Step two, tune TCP/IP stack Step... much later: write your own "crypto". (I'm using quotes because, before someone points out the obvious, packets-per-keystroke isn't, itself, a cryptographic algorithm, but because it's being done to protect connections from being decrypted/etc, mess with it at your own peril.)
And with good reason. This CVE is from yesterday:
https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2026-24061
> telnetd in GNU Inetutils through 2.7 allows remote authentication bypass via a "-f root" value for the USER environment variable.
Vibe coders man...
WAT. Please no.