17 pointsby emrekosmaz16 days ago5 comments
  • emrekosmaz16 days ago
    Hi HN — I’m Emre, founder of Nex Computer (NexDock). After ~14 years working on “phone-as-PC,” we’re announcing NexPhone: a smartphone that runs Android by default, can launch a full Debian Linux environment on demand, and can dual-boot into Windows 11.

    Write-up with background + rationale: https://nexphone.com/blog/the-tale-of-nexphone-one-phone-eve...

    Curious what HN thinks about the tradeoffs here: dual-boot vs virtualization, Linux as an app vs full replaceable OS, and what the “killer workflow” is for a phone-as-PC device. Would love to hear use-cases / critiques.

    • necovek16 days ago
      I'd love it to be the other way around: Linux is native, and you can start an Android environment in the userland for the few Android apps I can't avoid :)

      I don't care about Windows, but it's useful if I want to deal with a Windows only app (a few from the government locally).

      • necovek16 days ago
        But note that I am unlikely to get one today: with a drawer full of Linux phones (from Motorola A1200, Nokia N900 and N9, Palm Pre+, HP Pre 3, PinePhone, Meizu MX4 shipped with Ubuntu, and Nexus 4 running Ubuntu), I'd really be looking for something that does exactly what I want with enough performance to actually dock to my 8k TV or 4k dual screen setup.
        • fsflover12 days ago
          Somehow your list misses Librem 5, which is more powerful than others, although not as powerful as the Nexphone will.
          • adrian_b12 days ago
            It is hard to associate in the same sentence the word "powerful" with a quadruple Cortex-A53 CPU.

            Cortex-A78 is in a totally different class of "powerful", when compared with Cortex-A53. Cortex-A53 has not been designed as a top performer among Arm CPUs, but only as a low-power core. Even at its launch, in 2012, 14 years ago, Cortex-A53 was much slower than the older big Arm cores, like Cortex-A15 from 2010. I am aware of this from direct experience, because a decade ago I have developed software on several SBCs with Cortex-A53, including Raspberry Pi, and also on an ODROID model with Cortex-A15, which ran circles around them, and unlike them it delivered a passable desktop experience.

            On the other hand, at its launch in 2020, Cortex-A78 was faster than any older Arm CPU cores. It was then surpassed by the Cortex-X1 launched simultaneously with it, and then by the Apple M1, launched later that year.

            Even if some enthusiasts have used old Raspberry Pi and similar SBCs with Cortex-A53 as PCs, that was really not wise as they were too slow for a comfortable use and there were faster alternatives with a similar price (after you added the cost of all required peripherals).

          • necovek11 days ago
            It's more expensive and not sufficiently more powerful: I would also have to pay customs duties to import it into Serbia. The above are actual devices I own or have owned, it's natural I did not get all of them (including like PinePhone Pro).
    • zb315 days ago
      How does it deal with AVB? Does it have a secure element that works with Android keymint?

      Does the bootloader implement fastboot? Is it unlockable? What does the partition layout look like?

      I suppose the actual magic has to happen in the "abl" part and this is where it gets very interesting, but these announcements were extremely light on details..

    • necovek16 days ago
      To separately answer the killer workflow: I'd love to reduce a number of devices, and another one might be an e-ink note taking screen to dock to (yes, I've got a reMarkable Paper Pro and Kindle Scribe). But other than docking to my keyboard, screen(s), external camera/mic and network, phone, laptop and eink with pen is what I care about.

      I'd also want more built-in, fast storage (2tb) to keep my basic data always with me (photos, documents...).

    • DANmode12 days ago
      1) Is your supply chain plan published anywhere?

      Always seems to be the weak point making new entrants.

      2) Please don’t add too many days to the patch interval of these OS, if any.

      3) How will the hardware security rival the Pixel line?

      Wishing you success!

    • shams9316 days ago
      Even if it couldn't do win11 it would be amazing, but also transforming into a work pc setup is ingenious. Then there are the environmental benefits of reducing the footprint of eventual e-waste.
  • ed_mercer12 days ago
    I’m sad that people are spending time on this when they should be building a Linux phone.
    • fsflover12 days ago
      Linux phones already exist: Librem 5 and Pinephone.
      • adrian_b12 days ago
        Those have a ridiculously low performance.

        While this phone still does not have an Armv9-A CPU, but only a quadruple Cortex-A78, that is nonetheless like 4 to 10 times faster than the phones mentioned by you and faster than a light notebook of a decade ago.

        The other Linux phones are barely competitive with a laptop of 25 years ago and they are not really usable as a personal computer today, unless you like waiting for your computer.

        • fsflover12 days ago
          Specs do not show the whole pucture: https://puri.sm/posts/the-danger-of-focusing-on-specs/

          Librem 5 is my daily driver btw.

          • adrian_b12 days ago
            While I partially agree with what it says at your link, about specs depending on the context, I am also well aware about the actual performance of quadruple Cortex-A53 CPUs and how it compares with alternatives, because about a decade ago I have used many single-board computers with various kinds of such CPUs (including Raspberry Pi, but also other very different SoCs). I eventually abandoned them for better alternatives.

            If you have modest requirements, you can be content with such a CPU, e.g. for reading and editing simple documents or browsing the Internet with scripting disabled.

            The point is that there is no need to restrain yourself to cope with its limitations, because for more than a decade there have been much better alternatives.

            Even when your target is a sub-$100 computer, it makes no sense to use any CPU weaker than a quadruple Cortex-A76, like in the many computer models using Rockchip CPUs or in the current Raspberry Pi. While there are much more sources of Cortex-A76 based computers, the number of those offering much faster Cortex-A78 based CPUs using Qualcomm or Mediatek SoCs, including this smartphone, are steadily increasing.

            • fsflover12 days ago
              > The point is that there is no need to restrain yourself to cope with its limitations, because for more than a decade there have been much better alternatives.

              Where are those alternatives? Which phones with a better CPU can run GNU/Linux?

              • JCattheATM12 days ago
                What about phones from OnePlus for example, sever of which can run PostmarketOS.
                • fsflover12 days ago
                  AFAIK none of them can run GNU/Linux natively: only on top of Android.
                  • JCattheATM12 days ago
                    Never heard anything like that about PostmarketOS before, and couldn't find anything confirming that's the case.
                    • fsflover12 days ago
                      Good call. It seems this is just one way to run it, https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Hybris. Another way is to run mainline kernel, which is currently supported by few devices, including Librem 5, Pinephone, Fairphone 2, OnePlus. It seems only the first two run with all FLOSS drivers and full support: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices

                      So, for OnePlus, you may stop getting updates for proprietary drivers whenever the vendor decides so. Also, not all features are supported due to the difficulty of reverse-engineering the drivers.

                      • JCattheATM12 days ago
                        Driver updates generally stablize, and new updates aren't really needed, so I don't think that's an issue.
                        • fsflover12 days ago
                          Vulnerabilities are found in drivers all the time.
                          • JCattheATM11 days ago
                            That's a huge exaggeration, honestly. I don't think there are any outstanding vulnerabilities in any of the OnePlus T devices that can run PMOS.
                            • fsflover11 days ago
                              This is not at all what I wrote. I wrote that with proprietary drivers, you're always at the risk of being vulnerable with no recourse.
                              • JCattheATM11 days ago
                                Right...and I wrote that's not really an issue as time goes on as drivers stabilize.
                                • fsflover11 days ago
                                  Never heard anything about "driver stabilization" before, and couldn't find anything confirming that it exists. In my understanding, the longer some piece of software is used, the higher the probability that a vulnerability can be found.

                                  I can imagine that after a really long time, most vulnerabilities might be found, but I don't believe I will live long enough to see that for relevant drivers.

                                  • JCattheATM11 days ago
                                    > Never heard anything about "driver stabilization" before, and couldn't find anything confirming that it exists.

                                    I don't know that it's a known phrase, I find it odd you searched for it as I would have thought the meaning would have been obvious. Bugs are found generally within the developer mandated lifespan of the device, more bugs are found closer to release with less being found over time.

                                    There might still be vulnerabilities, but that would be just as true for open source ones, because in both cases no one is really looking for them.

                                    Can you find any unpatched vulnerabilities for any of the OnePlus devices that PMOS runs on? I doubt it. They may exist, but they may exist i your Librem also.

                                    • fsflover11 days ago
                                      Stastistically, vulnerabilities should exist in both OnePlus and Librem. However, as the latter has free drivers, anyone will be able to fix them, whereas for OnePlus you have to hope that the vendor helps you.
                                      • JCattheATM11 days ago
                                        Right, so you're just going off vague generalizations and possibilities. There's an entire army of people looking for vulnerabilities in this area, and they haven't found any. Until you can show a vulnerability for the devices I mentioned, you don't have much of a point.
                                        • fsflover10 days ago
                                          > and they haven't found any

                                          Why are you so sure? Not everybody shares vulnerabilities with the world. Some people keep them for themselves or sell on the black market. I doubt OnePlus offer a reasonable payment for that.

                                          • JCattheATM10 days ago
                                            Because it's not a high target device. Valuable targets are not using outdated OnePlus devices. There might not be money to be made, but there is reputation to be earned by discovering a new vulnerability. I doubt a vulnerability in some old 6T hardware would be worth much, while disclosing it and padding a resume would be.
                                            • fsflover10 days ago
                                              People who use non-mainstream systems and rely very little on proprietary software are automatically more interesting. They may have something to hide.
                                              • JCattheATM10 days ago
                                                I think that's a massive case of confirmation bias and exaggeration. People that use GrapheneOS are significantly, substantially more of a target than someone using a librem out of principle.

                                                I don't think you have much of a point at all, but I also don't see this discussion going anywhere interesting so I'll leave it at that.

                                                • fsflover10 days ago
                                                  > People that use GrapheneOS are significantly, substantially more of a target than someone using a librem out of principle.

                                                  I don't dispute that. However, if you take into account that Google (who create Pixel devices) is a part of Prism, GrapheneOS users could likely be targeted in another way.

                                                  • handedness9 days ago
                                                    You've made that vague claim a number of times before, and unless I steelman it into being merely handwavy, it comes across as pure FUD. I don't even know where to begin.

                                                    But next year GrapheneOS will be releasing an OEM phone.

  • saurik12 days ago
    If I dual boot into Windows, I take it I am no longer contactable on my phone?
    • DANmode12 days ago
      Windows devices can address cellular modems.
  • nsonha12 days ago
    When I select my country a different text than the default "Reserve NexPhone (Direct Shipping)" appear. And the line "This is a fully refundable reservation deposit" is no longer there.
  • mystifyingpoi16 days ago
    Could anyone using a lapdock everyday share their experience? How do you use it? Does it make sense to buy a device that requires another device to function?
    • necovek16 days ago
      Like a smartwatch? ;)

      The point is that you'll have one anyway (your phone), so the other is to make it more powerful. But I can imagine some cases where it is suboptimal (you need a MFA token read off your phone for a web page login?).