36 pointsby ingve6 hours ago9 comments
  • Luc4 hours ago
    > To the Unix purist, this might appear wasteful and unnecessary, but macOS isn’t, and never has been, Unix.

    I get what they mean, but macOS is even Unix certified. https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/

    • timeon4 hours ago
      Yes on paper. Submitted version differs from what customers run at home/work.
      • greggsy3 hours ago
        The compliance trope that a point-in-time-assessment can't be used to support a claim is kind of a lazy take. The certification explicitly states macOS v26.0 Tahoe.

        While it's true that it wasn't always truly UNIX compliant, they put in the hard yards to become so (albeit to avoid a $200M lawsuit from The Open Group) [1]

        [1] https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix...

      • yokoprime3 hours ago
        Im sorry, but i dont buy that. Unix certification has nothing to do with number of processes running or "efficiency"! The OS must be SUS compliant, i.e have all the core interfaces in place, all the correct utilities (awk, grep, vi, sed etc) and theres something about header files, filesystem requirements etc. even if the macOS submitted for certification is super trimmed down, it does not matter as long as its a true subset of what is shipped to consumers.

        MacOS is certified UNIX i.e its "UNIX", like it or not. On this point the article is just wrong.

        • timetopay3 hours ago
          Unix is both a family of operating systems and also a trademark. The name is overloaded - "Unix" is more than one thing at the same time. In addition, the trademark is "UNIX" and the operating system family is "Unix"

          MacOS is both UNIX and also not Unix at the same time.

          If the trademark holders decided to UNIX certify my cat, which is well within their legal right to do so, would that make her UNIX?

          • greggsy3 hours ago
            Unlike macOS, your cat does not, and will not, meet the industry-accepted standard that describes unix as we know it today.

            https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/xym0.htm

            • remix20003 hours ago
              Mayhaps not with a `cat(1)` alone, but really they just need to expand their menagerie now.
          • remix20003 hours ago
            Or perhaps they just won't certify your cat just as Apple won't start making Windows PCs…?
  • jbstack4 hours ago
    I've never personally understood the point of macOS for power users (other than cases where you're required to use one e.g. for work). I can understand it for casual users who just want something simple that works for basic tasks, but what does macOS offer a power user that Linux doesn't, and which makes it worth sacrificing the ability to run your machine the way you want? In Linux you'd solve OP's problem by just building up from a minimal distro like Arch or NixOS.
    • ivm3 minutes ago
      I'm a power user who's past configuring things, instead I want them to just work on their own. I also hate to memorize commands but like using the mouse and click buttons.
    • matwood3 hours ago
      > I've never personally understood the point of macOS for power users

      These threads always end up with veiled insults like this. Can you really not understand people who use Windows, Linux and Macs? They each have their strengths depending on what you are doing.

      > which makes it worth sacrificing the ability to run your machine the way you want

      I've use Macs since my first G4 PB, Linux for longer, and used to develop for Windows though it's been a very long time. I've never felt stopped for doing what I want.

      > by just building up from a minimal distro like Arch or NixOS

      Been there done that. I have too many other things that need to get done to build up a distro. I'm sure desktop Linux has improved since the last time I tried running it as my main computer, but I just not sure what the point is now.

      • jbstack2 hours ago
        No insult intended. I genuinely wasn't aware of what advantages macOS offers for a power user (by which I mean someone who wants to do tasks more advanced than browsing, email, etc.). From quickly skimming the replies the common theme seems to be a mixture of battery efficiency, hardware compatibility, and Mac-only software.

        > Been there done that. I have too many other things that need to get done to build up a distro.

        Yes, but my comment wasn't made in isolation or directed at people with your objectives. The OP's article is about doing exactly this, but in the opposite direction (expending large amounts of effort to remove unneeded processes). See for example: "if we assume that we need to identify just 500 candidates, and each takes an average of one week to research, that would take over 10 person-years".

        Starting with that as the baseline (as opposed to starting from your position which is that you're not interested in spending time on this issue), building up from zero is a lot more straightforward. And, if you use something like NixOS, you generally only have to do it once since the idea of "reinstalling" the OS (e.g. for new versions) largely goes away: subsequent effort is just about changing your mind about what software you want, or what version you want (as with any OS).

      • rubslopes2 hours ago
        I've recently heard that using Linux is an excuse to spend the day tinkering and ricing and do no productive work. It's the same kind of prejudice, but opposite.

        I like the freedom to run my machine the way I want, but I also enjoy something that is reliable and seamless. My macbook air's battery lasts forever. It works flawlessly, almost always. "oh with nixos if you brick it you can rollback..." that's great, but it does not beat working great for the first time.

        Having said that, I'm progressively migrating from MacOS to Linux as MacOS is starting to "get in the way" enough to bother me.

        • jbstack2 hours ago
          NixOS is an extreme case, and I only mentioned it as a counter to the OP's article which was talking about the mammoth efforts required to remove unwanted processes. More generally, there are plenty of Linux distros which "just work" out of the box for most use cases.
    • sakisv4 hours ago
      For me it's quite simple: It works and it stays out of my way.

      I've owned a macbook since 2010, with a short break during the touchbar era when I got myself an XPS with windows which I dual-booted with ubuntu and later a system76 that comes with their own flavour of Ubuntu, called Pop! Os.

      The situation in windows (windows 10 at the time) was abysmal. Completely incoherent UI, settings spread across different menus, ads in start menu, slow and broken search, constant nagging to update windows, to update the drivers, to tell me that the drivers have been updated, to install or update my antivirus, etc. These were not things that I installed myself, these were included with Dell's setup of the machine.

      On the system76 laptop things were different. Things were calm, I could configure everything as I wanted and things worked. Until at some point I installed a new version of something, which had nothing to do with sound, but it broke sound, just as I was preparing to join a meeting, and just as we were going into the second phase of lockdowns in late 2020 so online meetings were here to stay.

      My macbooks are reliable. I've got the M1 as soon as it came out and I never got a single issue with it. I've upgraded twice (I think) across major versions and everything worked. I don't have to worry about it leaving me hanging when I need it.

      (And that's not taking into account things like build quality, touchpad quality, battery life, silence, etc)

      In the end of the day, I do a lot of debugging as part of my work. When I don't work, I want to choose what I will be debugging, not have it forced on me.

      And don't get me wrong: I see where Apple is going, I know that they're a greedy company that want to maintain their iron grip and have the final say on what we can and cannot do on our machines.

      However, for me for the time being it's the least bad option.

      • flowerbreeze3 hours ago
        I do like the build of Macbooks and especially the solid casing. Unfortunately I could never get used to MacOS even within 2.5 years and it was not quite as reliable for me as it is for many others.

        XCode installations failing, Docker installation failing after an OS update never to work again without completely reinstalling OS, plugging in headphones would crash the Macbook (until OS update 6 months after I got it), video calls slowing to a halt, if sharing screen etc.

        Also there were some things I just never got used to in Mac like window tabbing & minimize working in a Mac way. Maybe if I hadn't had a personal laptop that used Linux at the same time, I would have gotten used to it a little better, but I just plain hated the way it worked.

        To be fair, I think it was still more reliable than varieties of Windows, especially the later ones! If tabbing worked more like under Windows and it allowed a bit more configuration, I might be using Mac these days.

        That leaves Linux. Although it's not flawless neither after configuring Debian + i3, it works exactly like I want and the same installation has been reliably working for 5+ years. However, getting to the setup that just works certainly took several tries and depends on laptop compatibility, so... No ideal choices exist right now I think. Just luck and what someone is most used to in the end.

      • graemep3 hours ago
        One problem with system76?

        I have very few problems with linux, despite running a fairly unstable rolling release distro. MacOS does have problems. I have no idea whether its more of less reliable, but going on personal experience is not a good sample.

      • timeon4 hours ago
        > It works and it stays out of my way.

        This was reason for me as well. More than decade. Unfortunately it is not the case anymore.

        Hardware is still best (in my opinion) but software is not.

    • JodieBenitez4 hours ago
      > what does macOS offer a power user that Linux doesn't

      Your definition of power user may vary but for me:

          - Especially for laptops, good integration with hardware (and good hardware), energy efficiency, power management
          - Support from commercial software vendors
      
      I could probably use linux for a desktop machine, that would work ok. But it's a no-go for laptops. And I've tried... and try regularly...
    • pseidemann4 hours ago
      Perfectly working drivers.

      As a power user, I want to use, not to fix, my tools.

      I might tinker sometimes, but that is unrelated for me.

      • oneeyedpigeon4 hours ago
        Exactly this. The question pretends that there is a whole group of "power users" who all do the same thing, but that couldn't be further from the truth IMO. There are users like me who program and don't want to spend forever configuring audio driers, etc. There are power users who like to tinker. And there are people who do a bit of both, to every extent on the scale.
    • nicoburns4 hours ago
      > what does macOS offer a power user that Linux doesn't, and which makes it worth sacrificing the ability to run your machine the way you want?

      Primarily much better compatibility with graphical apps. Microsoft Office and Adobe Creative Suite are two that many people need access to. Both have first-party offerings on macOS, and somewhat poor support via wine on Linux.

      With Apple Silicon, the hardware is also particularly excellent. And only runs macOS well.

    • physicsguy4 hours ago
      The big thing for me has always been (a) reliability of the hardware (b) good performance/battery trade off (c) nix-like environment.

      In my prev. job I had a windows laptop with WSL2 though and I actually was super productive with that. But the laptop hardware offerings at the same price point are rubbish, just not very robust. Linux machines if you're in a corp and want one in the next 6 months are usually even more restrictive on hardware than they are on Windows.

    • eXpl0it3r4 hours ago
      A lot of users still like the mix of a good UI for most tasks, while being able to do a lot of power user stuff without an added layer. Plus many will choose macOS also for the hardware, which support for new chipsets is still rather WIP under Linux.
      • vladvasiliu4 hours ago
        > A lot of users still like the mix of a good UI for most tasks

        This is funny; it's actually the main reason why I asked for a PC when I was up for renewal at work, so I can run Linux on it.

        I truly like the hardware of the mbp, especially the screen (don't care about battery life, I mostly use it at a desk with power nearby). The OS itself is fine, since it can easily run most of the tools I use. I also like how it handles special characters (I can easily type French on an US-ANSI keyboard) to the point that I've implemented that on my Linux and Windows machines.

        But what kills it for me is the UI behavior. The window management drives me crazy, especially when multiple screens are involved. And there are quite a few aggravating issues, like being unable to control the audio output of my screen's speakers (connected through DP), being unable to turn off external screens (sometimes I just want to use the power of my monitor, which has an integrated KVM).

        Yeah, I know there are programs trying to fix these, but I have to go out of my way trying to find them, and then they're hit and miss. On Linux, everything works as expected (though, granted, it's possible I've won the hardware-compatibility lottery, since it actually works better than on Windows).

    • stabbles4 hours ago
      It just happens to be so that hardware which power users like to use comes with macOS installed.
    • jonpalmisc3 hours ago
      For me: pro & creative apps. GIMP/Inkscape will never replace Photoshop/Illustrator/Affinity. Ableton, Logic, Pro Tools, etc. are not available on Linux and with the exception of REAPER, the alternatives are awful. And even with a Linux-compatible DAW, very few plugins are available on Linux.

      On macOS, I can work on hobby software & graphics/music.

      • austinjp3 hours ago
        How's Bitwig these days? I've not checked it for years.

        https://www.bitwig.com/

        • jonpalmisc3 hours ago
          Not bad, but different DAWs cater to different workflows. To me (and most), Bitwig feels much more optimized for creating electronic music than recording guitar or drums. It wouldn't be my first choice for the latter workflow, where I'd prefer REAPER or Logic. You also still have the issue with plugin compatibility and that 99% of commercial plugin vendors don't support Linux.
          • IsToman hour ago
            > 99% of commercial plugin vendors don't support Linux.

            It's a bit softened by the fact that many of them can be replaced/recreated with stock bitwig devices (if you're into that). There's also yabridge, though for me personally it has been a bit hit and miss.

      • throwawa52313 hours ago
        As far as I know, current Photoshop works fine under Linux woth wine [0].

        [0]: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Adobe-Photoshop-2025-Wine-Patc...

    • GeorgeOldfield3 hours ago
      battery management, ARM chips, SoC ram, only decent trackpad in laptops, only good audio output in laptops (3V RMS for 150+ Ohm headphones. literally no other laptop has it), etc. These things are only possible on Macs because of economies of scale. But the most important part, to me, is software. again, economies of scale -- almost every polished app comes to Mac OS as the first OS because of the monetization potential per install. Then apps for Windows or Linux are often an afterthought or are non-native.

      Mac OS is not great, no platform is perfect. Gotta think what is important to you. Are you using your machine as a thin client? Then maybe Linux is fine. Windows is obviously tragic -- zero advantages there.

      about the article, Mac OS can be gutted via disabling SIP (I'm doing it on 1 macbook air), but we have so much compute and RAM that it doesn't make much sense for most use cases. I know that some companies do this with minis/studios to make makeshift servers.

    • pitkali3 hours ago
      I got my first MacBook around 2010 because I was tired of fixing suspend to RAM every few Nvidia driver updates on my ThinkPad. Then I paid for a commercial VM to seamlessly run some Windows software I needed for my freelance work as a translator, removing the need to dual boot two operating systems. Everything just worked, and I could focus on things I wanted to do instead of continuing to tinker with the OS itself. And after years of playing with many different Linux distros, I realised that I did get tired of that. Moreover, a few games that I played, actually had native Mac versions. What's not to like?

      These days I do have a Tuxedo laptop for fooling around, and I don't even use laptops on the regular, which is probably why it works well enough. That and integrated Radeon graphics, I'm sure.

    • citrin_ru3 hours ago
      > what does macOS offer a power user that Linux doesn't, and which makes it worth sacrificing the ability to run your machine the way you want?

      Access to Apple ecosystem - iCloud e. t. c. If one uses iPhone it's quite convenient to have access to the same cloud services from a laptop. FindMy is a big one for me - if I lost or misplaced my phone I can use FindMy on Macbook to locate it. While it's technically possible to use FindMy via web you'll need the phone as 2FA which is not an option when I'm trying to find it.

    • nxobject4 hours ago
      For me, battery life and power management – even with the number of services that macOS runs. I run Asahi Linux when docked, but on the go I estimate I get a warmer lap and about ~1/2 hr less.
    • anta403 hours ago
      As a mobile app dev, I'm forced to use macOS: no iOS SDK on Windows/Linux/etc

      I'd love to know what's good ARM notebook which works fine with Linux.

    • 4 hours ago
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    • closewith4 hours ago
      > what does macOS offer a power user that Linux doesn't,

      Quite simply, an OS that you don't have to think about. I moved to MacOS from linux after seeing my co-founder use their Macbook basically without any problems, much longer battery life, nice conveniences like shared clipboard and wifi password sharing, airplay, Airpods integration, better screens and font rendering, perfect migrations to new hardware, etc.

      While I learned a lot tinkering with linux for a decade, at some point you can't beat something that just works.

    • rado4 hours ago
      Pixelmator Pro
    • foelantrope3 hours ago
      [dead]
    • yomismoaqui4 hours ago
      > I've never personally understood the point of macOS for power users

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption

      • deaux3 hours ago
        Haha right. They last so much longer than non-Mac laptops from a hardware PoV, and especially how long they end up being used. That's why they retain their second hand value so much better than Windows laptops, because you can buy a Macbook of a few years old, know exactly what you're getting and that it will last another few years unless you're extremely unlucky.
      • matwood3 hours ago
        At this point, not-a-Mac often stands out more if you want to cite conspicuous consumption.
      • oneeyedpigeon4 hours ago
        Nobody ever sees my Mac but me and the monitor is a horrible old Dell one with a thick black bezel. If we were talking about iPhones, I might agree with your point.
      • closewith4 hours ago
        The same thing is true for laptops like Frameworks or Thinkpads running linux, just conspicuous to a different audience.
  • egorfine4 hours ago
    I badly need slimmed down macOS for CI VMs. Yeah, some little things can be cut out but most of the time not.

    On the other hand, macOS is not that much memory-hungry as one might think. Like, a 4GB VM can start and build software.

  • thisislife23 hours ago
    For those wanting some semblance of control over macOS system processes, consider experimenting with App Tamer ( https://stclairsoft.com/AppTamer/ ). I was sceptical about it but "rogue" system processes, like Spotlight Indexer / Engine, that randomly demanded and hogged 100% of the CPU is now a thing of the past for me, after I used App Tamer to set it to not use more than 20% of CPU resources. It can supposedly stop (kill?) processes too, and I am experimenting with that too. But yeah, I think it's time to dump macOS (thankfully, I am still using an older version so my experience is less shitty).
  • dostickan hour ago
    Misleading title, should be “you can’t”
  • vegabook4 hours ago
    I don't understand why Apple doesn't offer a headless MacOS or at least a path to a minimal install. Those mac minis make a great little server box but losing 8GB to hundreds of processes, before you've done anything, just feels wasteful and inelegant.
    • silvestrov3 hours ago
      There are no sales in it.

      Apple leadership makes decisions based on money.

      That is also why there is no iPhone mini even though there is a small number of people that really prefer a small phone.

      • 3 hours ago
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  • peterisza4 hours ago
    It's such a shame that we have come to this. MacOS is basically Windows now. :(
    • WesSouza3 hours ago
      Windows 7 you mean.

      Windows 11 is far deeper into the sewer.

    • spiderfarmer4 hours ago
      As long as apps can continue to steal focus on windows, windows will always be worse.
      • oneeyedpigeon4 hours ago
        Apps can do that on macOS too — Steam is a very good example.
        • willis9363 hours ago
          Every login steam steals focus no less than two times. Steam is one of the few login items I'd choose to keep, but wasting the first 30 seconds of login is too heavy a price to pay.
    • closewith4 hours ago
      I don't know if you've used Windows lately, but Windows is orders of magnitude less pleasant than MacOS (or even previous bad Windows versions like Vista).
  • tux34 hours ago
    If you don't like the conclusion, and you have an M1 or M2, see also https://alx.sh

    Asahi's not perfect, but there's no restrictions. You bought the computer, after all.

    • patates4 hours ago
      Losing Thunderbolt is a bit too much, isn't it?
      • chrisldgk4 hours ago
        That and losing the ability to connect displays via USB-C is what’s keeping me from switching sadly. I love what the Asahi team is doing and I’m confident they’ll get it figured out. I wish I could do something to help, but this type of programming is far beyond my skill level so there’s not much I can do other than donate here and there.
    • cs02rm04 hours ago
      I thought development for it was not in a good place?
      • prmoustache4 hours ago
        Looks pretty much stalled to me and with new versions coming every 1.x year it is unlikely to improve much.

        Seems ok enough if you want to use a M1 mini as desktop or server.

    • peterisza4 hours ago
      Isn't the battery life shit? Maybe I'll try it
  • 3 hours ago
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