109 pointsby Tomte19 days ago20 comments
  • ksymph19 days ago
    It seems like the lesson we keep learning, no matter the proxy we use for intelligence, is that there is nothing that fundamentally sets humans apart from other animals (or even, in some ways, AI) other than the degree and scope of our intelligence.

    While I'll never begrudge science that points out the obvious -- that's often where the most value comes from -- this particular avenue is always a little funny to me, as it often belies an expectation that other animals are unable to do these things by default.

    • lo_zamoyski19 days ago
      > It seems like the lesson we keep learning, no matter the proxy we use for intelligence, is that there is nothing that fundamentally sets humans apart from other animals

      Except it doesn't show that.

      The reason people make this judgement is because they don't have a coherent or clear definition of "intelligence". Nothing has been undermined, except in those who took the view that animals are dumb automatons. That's more of a legacy of modernism and the desire to gain "mastery over nature" more than anything else.

      The essential feature of human beings - from which the rest of human nature and its consequences follow, including our social nature - is rationality. This entails an intellect, which is the abstracting faculty. It is the intellect that makes language possible, because without the capacity to abstract from particulars, we could not have universal concepts and thus no predicates. Language would be reduced to the kind we see in other animals.

      For clarity, the functions of language are:

      1. expressive: expressing an internal state or emotion (e.g., a cry of pain)

      2. signaling: use of expressive to cause a reaction in others (e.g., danger signals)

      3. descriptive: beyond immediate sensation; describes states of affairs, allowing for true or false statements

      4. argumentative: allows critical analysis, inference, and rational justification

      Without abstraction, (3) and (4) are impossible. But all animal activity we have observed requires no appeal to (3) and (4). Non-human animals perceive objects and can manipulate them, even in very clever ways, but they do not have concepts (which are expressed as general names).

      Could there be other rational animals in the universe? Sure. But we haven't met any. And from an ontological POV (as opposed to a phylogenetic taxonomic classification), they would be human, as the ontological definition of "human being" - "rational animal" - would apply them.

      • tjoff19 days ago
        Not sure if it qualifies but even bees have a dance that describes the direction, distance and quantity of nectar.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waggle_dance

        Feels like a lot of animals just lack ability to articulate. Which might evolve if they had a need but feels like an chicken-and-egg problem more than anything?

      • ksymph19 days ago
        Perhaps ironically, I am having trouble distilling your abstractions into concrete concepts.

        A dog or chimpanzee can easily understand conceptual ideas such as 'walk', 'play', 'food', and so on, even through language. Not to say humans don't process these in different ways, and are able to manipulate them as abstract concepts as other species generally cannot, but in isolation it seems the fundamental principles can be widely accessed. What sort of test might you propose that demonstrates the difference you describe?

      • keernan18 days ago
        Isn't language also dependent upon unique human physical features enabling sophisticated sound combinations i.e. speech?
        • joquarky18 days ago
          Birds use sophisticated sounds for communication.
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    • eagleal19 days ago
      Not long ago there was the story of an orangutan in the wild using a paste it made from plants to heal itself, like some sort of anti-bacterial/anti-inflammatory.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-68942123

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    • joquarky18 days ago
      In some areas, we are still like the geocentricly minded from long ago.

      I feel that language models are revealing things about our cognition that some people are as unwilling to accept, similarly to how some people had trouble with accepting heliocentrism.

      • jraph18 days ago
        What things are being revealed about our cognition by language models?
    • mmooss19 days ago
      > I'll never begrudge science that points out the obvious

      People have many beliefs, inaccurate to varying degrees - many to a large degree. Science is a solution to our pretty bad intuitions. Sometimes it discovers they are wrong; sometimes science shows they are correct - it's hindsight to say it was 'obvious'.

      Also, I don't think it's obvious to 99.x% that cows use tools.

    • IAmBroom19 days ago
      The primal separation of man and animals has not changed since the invention of the device...

      Animals fear motorized vacuum cleaners.

      • hugeBirb19 days ago
        I fear a motorcycle blasting down my street at 10pm. What's the difference. Once my cats realized the robo vac won't hurt them they don't even move for it anymore... Seems intelligent to initially be terrified of something and update your perception of it.
      • andy9918 days ago
        Nature abhors a vacuum
    • otabdeveloper418 days ago
      Incorrect. Humans have free will (= information complexity). Various aspects of intelligence are just metrics of that, but the metric isn't the thing itself.
  • Sharlin19 days ago
  • water-data-dude19 days ago
    I never interpreted the Cow Tools strip as saying "cows are too dumb to use tools", but more along the lines of "if cows could create tools could we even fathom their use?" - kinda like the Borges story, Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge[0]. On the other hand, I read The Far Side when I was small and didn't really have the scientific chops to get a lot of the humor, so maybe I cemented an incorrect interpretation.

    [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Emporium_of_Benevole...

  • MomsAVoxell19 days ago
    I can confirm that cows are also capable of opening gates, and closing them, and also of doing so in a manner intending to antagonize goats, while also giving the farmer something to do. Moo.
    • ThePowerOfFuet18 days ago
      As the saying goes, nobody on the internet knows you're a cow.
  • metalman19 days ago
    I realy admire how dogs used rockets to beat humans into space

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laika

  • tangledknots19 days ago
    It's noteworthy to me that every scientific discovery is that non-human animals are "more clever than we thought" - and never ever the other way around.
    • fellowniusmonk19 days ago
      Koalas are the one that springs to mind. I believe the test result was "does not recognize their only food source (eucalyptus leaves) when served plated."
    • Dylan1680719 days ago
      "We gave an animal some tools and a mirror and it ignored the tools and couldn't recognize itself" happens too often to be a headline.
    • lo_zamoyski19 days ago
      It would be uninteresting. Think of almost any headline where some species is described as "dumber than previously thought". Not especially interesting.
      • skylurk19 days ago
        > headline where some species is described as "dumber than previously thought"

        Describes quite a lot of headlines, unfortunately for us.

    • functionmouse19 days ago
      I've seen a couple "Koalas are even dumber than we thought" articles

      Poor lads really are exceptionally dumb

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  • shevy-java19 days ago
    Often one has to translate things into understanding by the animal at hand.

    Monkeys learn quickly. Cows oddly enough can also learn quickly in social cohesion. So one cow figures something out; the others often quickly adapt and learn too. So the main step is the initial hurdle to overcome. There are lots of videos about this on youtube, starting with simple ones such as scratch-objects where cows rub against and it helps them scratch areas they can not easily reach on their own.

  • harimau77719 days ago
    Cows watch sunsets man!
  • rurban18 days ago
    Original paper: https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(25)... with much better info and even videos
  • worik19 days ago
    Watch out. It has been predicted... https://youtu.be/FQMbXvn2RNI?si=-Y6mo-3mWbpbZtVc
  • buildsjets19 days ago
    Wikipedia has illustrations of the tools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_tools
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  • xhkkffbf18 days ago
    Doesn't the old metaphor claim that someone writes open source code to "scratch an itch?" That makes these cows open source developers!
  • diggyhole19 days ago
    Man, scientists and journalists would do the world a favor by stepping outside their urban bubble. Cows use all sorts of things to scratch with. It is common place to see automated cow brushes they can use on their backs on dairy farms.

    Cows are pretty smart. Sheep are dumb animals that try to kill themselves any number of ways. Chickens are dumb lizards with feathers.

  • elcapitan19 days ago
    Cow General Intelligence (CGI) when?
  • fuddle19 days ago
    Privacy Badger blocked 75 trackers on their site :O
  • goopypoop19 days ago
    does Cordyceps use tools?
    • IAmBroom19 days ago
      Fungi.

      AFAIK, fungi have never used mechanical tools.

      They can solve complex algos using parallel processing, but no tools. Unless you consider zombie ants to be a tool...

  • cocacolacowboy19 days ago
    [dead]
  • didntknowyou19 days ago
    the researcher documented a cow using a stick to scratch itself. no doubt they're intelligent animals but describing them as using 'sophisticated tools' is a bit of a stretch.

    this behaviour is quite common in cattle and other animals, often seen rubbing or using sticks to scratch spots. sometimes it is dangerous as they find fences with nail poking out and cut themselves when rubbing to to calm an itch.

    • hugeBirb19 days ago
      "This behavior is quite common..." is very misleading. This specific behavior is not common. Scratching an itch does not equal using a tool to scratch an itch. Every animal I've seen in nature knows how to use external static objects to help them scratch somewhere they can't reach. Dogs cats, bears, pigs, cows... etc. I think my cats are very intelligent, I've seen them use the bristle brush attachment we have on the wall to scratch themselves. If I ever watched one of them pick up a fork with their mouth and orient it in a way to scratch their back I would absolutely lose my mind. These are not the same behaviors.
      • garciasn19 days ago
        If your cats picked up a fork, it would be to eat you after they killed you in your sleep; but, I could see how that could be considered “scratching an itch.”
        • hugeBirb19 days ago
          Maybe that's why they try to sleep directly on my neck every night. Always plotting something
          • garciasn19 days ago
            They’re not kneading you; they’re tenderizing the meat.
      • ysavir19 days ago
        I've seen my cats pull on a cord in order to reel in the toy at the end. I don't find that to be all too different from the cow orienting a scratcher. Should I?
        • hugeBirb19 days ago
          Idk I guess that's really up for you to decide. My opinion is that behavior seems very uhhh instinctual? Like if they were eating something that was running away from them I'm sure they would employ a similar tactic/behavior. Thing far away from me I need it closer. The logical steps to use a tool that would have 0 instinctual context seems leaps and bounds more "complex". I'm no animal/evolutionary scientist, just my opinion. It very well could be!
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    • bigstrat200319 days ago
      > no doubt they're intelligent animals

      Having spent my childhood around cows, I can say there's a great deal of doubt in my mind on that point. I know from extensive first-hand experience that cows are quite stupid.

      • hugeBirb19 days ago
        Having spent my entire life around cows I can say there's a great deal of evidence that cows are quite intelligent. Most of the time when people say they're dumb it's because they're hindering a human from forcing them to do something. Why should a cow "know" to go one way or the other or to not stop in a chute, or to not back up...these are just human constraints. We know what we WANT the cow to do and if they don't do that they're dumb. Sure I've seen cows do dumb things. If I was an outside observer looking at the severity and frequency that humans do dumb things I would come to the same conclusion, they're dumb.
        • Loughla19 days ago
          I'm with both of you. Growing up on a beef farm taught me that cows can be very dumb (no, you can't walk through the barbed wire, and no, you can't get to the water in the cistern without falling in and drowning) but also do show intelligence in some ways (the personal vendetta against the veterinarian's truck, or seeing their best friend in spring pastures and absolutely going apeshit).

          Like most things. . . It's shades of grey.

      • mitchell_h19 days ago
        I have Cows and Pigs, raised for show and meat. I would not call either animal "intelligent". I would call them stupid determined. They have all the time in the world to push, pull, grab and generally implement mayhem.
    • dboreham19 days ago
      This cow picked up the stick (broom) and wielded it clenched within her teeth. Quite different than rubbing against a static object.
    • mmooss19 days ago
      Defining tool use is subtle. Here's one defintion:

      "... the tool is a detached object (rock) used to procure some thing (food) ordinarily incapable of being accessed without a tool.". Also it is "manipulated independent of its location." [0]

      Rubbing against a tree is not tool use. Similarly, dropping a nut on a rock is not tool use, but dropping a rock on a nut is.

      It gets a bit more complex: You can pickup a stick and use it (similar to the cow); you can first prepare the stick by stripping leaves and branches off (some primates); you can bend the stick into a useful hook (New Caledonian crows).

      Look up corvids and especially New Caledonian crows. they are pretty amazing; in some tasks they apparently outperform all primates except one particular species.

    • card_zero19 days ago
      I like to claim that dinosaurs used tools, because some of them swallowed gastroliths. No reason a tool can't be internal.

      Oh wait, the article says external is in the "scientific definition". Fine.

      • b00ty4breakfast19 days ago
        I swallowed a rock when I was a kid (ok, maybe calling it a "rock" is being a bit dramatic, more like a pebble), does that make me a tool?

        ....wait, no