48 pointsby bikenaga9 hours ago8 comments
  • tdb78937 hours ago
    As an American who is a current grad student at Purdue this sucks. I've met great grad students from all around and it's sad that these exact sorts of really smart people have had increasing difficulty in coming to the US and staying here.
  • bradlys17 minutes ago
    How much of this is specific to Chinese and not just part of the general visa woes and lack of federal funding for programs now?

    I know that grad school is the main way for Chinese to get into the US but seems like it’s a bit sensational of a headline? Doesn’t sound Chinese specific…

  • seanmcdirmid6 hours ago
    This is sad but not unexpected. It’s a huge boon for China, since that talent is much more likely to stay in China now. Everyone thought Trump was a Russian mole, but increasingly it is the Chinese who are benefiting from his policies.
    • xingped2 hours ago
      Both can be (and likely are) true at the same time.
      • seanmcdirmid2 hours ago
        Yes, or Trump could just be an idiot. It’s really hard to tell malice from incompetence in this case.
  • vlark5 hours ago
    While some will cry this is racism against Chinese students, it is not. The reality is that Chinese students are here only with permission of the Chinese government and are beholden in many ways to the ruling Chinese communist party:

    https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china...

    https://stanfordreview.org/investigation-uncovering-chinese-...

    The PRC exerts great pressure on Chinese immigrants even after they become U.S. citizens. One need only to look at the case of the head of R&D at Coca-Cola who was convicted of stealing trade secrets for China:

    https://cen.acs.org/materials/polymers/Chemist-convicted-of-...

    https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/theft-of-universities-se...

    So yes, China is an economic rival and they go to great lengths to steal U.S. trade secrets. So why should we help educate the students of an economic and military rival?

  • Pacers31Colts186 hours ago
    Purdue doing the Chinese a favor. Nobody wants to go to West Lafayette.
    • rubidium6 hours ago
      It’s great place for grad school. Very little to do other than study and lab work. Play soccer with the grad students, float on the river in the summer, shoot potato gun cannons in corn fields, but otherwise there’s nothing better to do than work on a PhD.

      I’d recommend it for grad school. But then yea time to move on.

  • lingrush46 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • gruez6 hours ago
      >This is good policy. Chinese students in particular seem to have terrible english language skills. An American with the same communication skills would never be admitted to a flagship university for undergrad, let alone grad school.

      Surely there are better ways of dealing with this than banning an entire country? A standardized English test doesn't seem too hard to administer, for instance, and would have the benefit of being applicable to other countries.

      >I'm not sure how these Chinese students are gaming the system to get admitted, but I'm glad someone is finally doing something about it.

      So you're not even sure what the problem is, but you're okay with banning it? That dumber than banning them because they might be CCP spies or whatever. At least that vaguely makes sense and there are isn't really a mitigation (there's no standardized tests for non-CCP spies, for instance).

      • arijun6 hours ago
        > So you're not even sure what the problem is, but you're okay with banning it?

        They are claiming that those students are under-qualified either way. They only don’t know if they are “gaming the system” or it’s just a regular failure of the system.

        > A standardized English test doesn't seem too hard to administer

        I’ve seen a lot of claims of rampant cheating in China. Perhaps gp who doesn’t seem to have a high opinion of Chinese students would worry about cheating in a standardized test?

        • gruez5 hours ago
          >I’ve seen a lot of claims of rampant cheating in China. Perhaps gp who doesn’t seem to have a high opinion of Chinese students would worry about cheating in a standardized test?

          I don't know, the Chinese seem to do a good enough job keeping cheating under control in their college entrance exams (gaokao) such that most families spend their resources on tutors and cramming rather than bribes. Worst case scenario, require tests to be done on US soil. I'm sure someone paying $50k+/yr tuition for 4 years can afford a $500 flight to hawaii for their tests.

    • lucaslazarus6 hours ago
      What about this policy has anything to do with English language skills? And how is this “good policy” if it penalizes important next-generation researchers even when they speak English well? I am not denying your observation re: English language skills among Chinese graduate students—it’s just unclear what this solves that checking for English language skills during the live video interview stage does not.
      • 6 hours ago
        undefined
    • usui5 hours ago
      If you have grievances with some foreign students having terrible English language skills, regardless of how well it generalizes to the student's country, why would you complain about those students? Wouldn't you rather complain about how badly standardized tests like TOEFL are at evaluating admitted students? Or complain about how universities don't set the standard high enough? Foreign students need a good enough score on a standardized English test to study in US universities. Overall this is a confusing comment.
    • cyanydeez5 hours ago
      Those chinese also have better science and math scores. Acting like english is some super barrier is absurd jiongoism.

      No buts.

    • frereubu6 hours ago
      The article says nothing about English language skills. It says:

      'University officials have described the unwritten policy as a prudent response to the current uncertainty facing Chinese and other foreign students when they apply for visas to study in the United States. “They are telling us that these foreign students may not show up if we offer them a position,” the faculty member says. “And that could jeopardize our research.”'

      My wife teachers in universities in London, and the issue of Chinese students turning up with little or no English is real, often having paid for someone else to take the required English language tests for them. She has had students write their essays in Chinese and then just copied and pasted from Google Translate, generating utterly unintelligible dross. But that is definitively not the explanation here - this is all Chinese students, proficient in English or not.

    • mschild6 hours ago
      > gaming the system to get admitted

      Probably money. Foreign students will almost always pay sticker price.

      • gruez6 hours ago
        In that case why would Purdue need to ban them specifically? Just remove pressures/incentives they were putting in place to admit foreign students.
      • thaumasiotes6 hours ago
        > Foreign students will almost always pay sticker price.

        On the contrary, they pay the international student price, which is much higher.

        • mschild5 hours ago
          Depending on the university yes. Besides that, local students are much more likely to receive scholarships for their studies. Whether directly through the university or 3rd party.
    • mikelovenotwar6 hours ago
      >Chinese students in particular seem to have terrible english language skills.

      English, not english.

  • ls6128 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • fweimer6 hours ago
      In 1935, Albert Einstein relocated to Princeton permanently, so it's certainly an odd choice of a year in this context.

      Random graduate students won't work on classified projects. The vast majority of non-classified studies will not have any impact on national security for years to come. It's unclear what the actual risks are, beyond the general distrust of foreigners.

      • Teever6 hours ago
        [flagged]
        • fweimer5 hours ago
          Being Jewish (even if lapsed) was more of a disadvantage. U.S. immigration policy at the time was heavily influenced by eugenic ideas, and designed to prevent further Jewish migration, particularly from Eastern Europe. Princeton University (which initially housed the Institute for Advanced Study) had its own anti-Jewish quotas.
        • wizzwizz46 hours ago
          Albert Einstein was also German.

          > It is quite possible to be both. I look upon myself as a man. Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

          > Noch eine Art Anwendung des Relativitätsprinzips zum Ergötzen des Lesers: Heute werde ich in Deutschland als "deutscher Gelehrter", in England als "Schweizer Jude" bezeichnet; sollte ich aber einst in die Lage kommen, als "bète noire" präsentiert zu werden, dann wäre ich umgekehrt für die Deutschen ein „Schweizer Jude", für die Engländer ein "deutscher Gelehrter".

    • estearum7 hours ago
      Realpolitik dictates that you don't start conflicts with all of your allies for literally no reason
      • fsckboy5 hours ago
        Realpolitik does not actually dictate that. It says you pay attention to your interests but with a focus on what is actually achievable, and not focused on things like national/regional pride or unrealistic notions of utopian good.

        the situation where europeans feel they are in conflict with their best ally and economic partner says they actually need to relearn the lessons of realpolitik.

        • estearum4 hours ago
          Cute pedantry but everyone is aware of this. We’re having a conversation a level deeper and asking, “does this tactic comport with a realpolitik approach?”

          The answer is no.

          It is laughable to act like it’s the Europeans who feel they are in conflict with their best ally. Actually hilarious for you to suggest this.

      • kodyo7 hours ago
        The empire has vassals, not allies.
        • amarcheschi7 hours ago
          The empire is doing everything it can to alienate its vassals into indipendent cities-states with their own alliances
          • dmitrygr6 hours ago
            Vassals who refuse to bend the knee tend to ... not live long. Often replaced by those who bend it properly.
            • estearum4 hours ago
              Sounds like a cartoon world.
        • estearum4 hours ago
          Realpolitik dictates that you don't start conflicts with all of your vassals for literally no reason

          Satisfied?

        • FpUser7 hours ago
          You nailed it
        • markus_zhang7 hours ago
          Good point but not popular here.
          • Starman_Jones5 hours ago
            It's old thinking that has been proven wrong multiple times... by America.
    • contrarian12347 hours ago
      China as the enemy is a fabricated narrative, bc culturally we seem to have a need to have another cold war, we need a "bad guy"

      in reality theyre just economic rivals. But then again so are the EU.

      in terms of zone of political influence the competition isnt anything crazy (except for the poor taiwanese caught in the middle) and there is no clash of political ideaologies

      In my experience Chinese in China don't typically see the US as an enemy. Its a weird framing for them

      • themaninthedark6 hours ago
        China doesn't seem to think so.

        >"The top uniformed soldier in China, chairman of China's Central Military Commission, stated that war with the United States is inevitable," Coffman said. "That is the first time China has made that statement publicly."

        https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/03/11/china-declare...

        Would you say the same thing about Russia, Is that a fabricated narrative? Why or why not?

        • contrarian12345 hours ago
          Russia is not an active economic rival. If they weren't actively attacking neighbors and interfere with governments around the world they would be basically irrelevant. I think the situation is radically different from China. Russia seems to have intentionally positioned themselves as enemies b.c it's part of their identity and the government's attempt to retain some relevance on the international stage
          • themaninthedark4 hours ago
            I was commenting more on: >China as the enemy is a fabricated narrative, bc culturally we seem to have a need to have another cold war, we need a "bad guy"

            Than the economic rival aspect.

            Because that was exactly what the Democratic party narrative was in 2012, with similar views echoed in Europe.

            >Romney's claim drew a memorable slam from Obama during a presidential debate: "The 1980s, they're now calling to ask for their foreign policy back," Obama said, seeking to paint Romney as out of touch on a key foreign policy issue.

            >Albright, who similarly criticized Romney in 2012, said she'd "underestimated" Russia back then.

            https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/yea...

            >The EU and Russia are not only neighbours but strategic partners who cooperate on a wide range of bilateral and global challenges, based on joint commitments and shared interests.

            https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/memo_1...

            >In 2014, Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its military intervention in eastern Ukraine following Ukraine’s intention to sign an Association Agreement (AA) with the European Union caught the EU by surprise.

            https://eu.boell.org/en/2017/07/03/eu-russia-relations-towar...

        • throw3108226 hours ago
          FWIW, Xu Qiliang said that war with the United States is inevitable because of the "Thucydides Trap", the theory that an incumbent power is not going to accept the rise of a competing power. In that case, the war would be started by the current ruling power, not by the rising power. I.e., by the US.

          In 2014, Xi Jinping had already said "China fully understands that we need a peaceful and stable internal and external environment to develop ourselves. We all need to work together to avoid the Thucydides trap - destructive tensions between an emerging power and established powers … Our aim is to foster a new model of major country relations."

          • kelipso6 hours ago
            China kind of avoided the Thicydides trap already it looks like. Trump’s national security strategy document has indicated that the US is going to shore up around the Americas instead of doing the global hegemony strategy. And there have been statements made by US military people (Hegseth maybe) indicating that the US can’t militarily take on China near their coast anymore.
        • thaumasiotes6 hours ago
          >> "The top uniformed soldier in China, chairman of China's Central Military Commission, stated that war with the United States is inevitable," Coffman said.

          Do we have something better than some English-language hearsay from five years ago? I tried looking for more on this and found nothing.

          I did discover that Xu Qiliang died last June. I doubt he's going to have much influence going forward.

          • themaninthedark5 hours ago
            Not sure how to find a primary source, I am only finding news reporting on the speech.

            https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1409929/China-news-US-w...

            5 years ago is not that long ago and we were at the start of the Biden administration then. With Trump back in office are relationships better or more inflamed?

            >I did discover that Xu Qiliang died last June. I doubt he's going to have much influence going forward.

            Unelected leadership in top positions are generally not just pushing their own agenda, especially in autocratic governments. Any speech or statement is highly considered and controlled, that statement should be taken as policy unless it is retracted.

            • thaumasiotes5 hours ago
              Just that Express link already contradicts the quote from Coffman:

              > General Xu Qiliang, China’s second in command of the armed forces after President Xi Jinping, said an increase in military spending is need[ed] to counter the ‘Thucydides Trap’.

              > Maj. Gen. Richard Coffman, director of the US Army's Next Generation Combat Vehicle Cross Functional Team, saw the remarks as a clear admission war was “inevitable”.

              > He said: “The top uniformed soldier in China, chairman of China's Central Military Commission, stated that war with the United States is inevitable.

              Allow me to suggest that "this a way to counter the Thucydides trap" cannot actually be paraphrased as "war is inevitable".

            • thaumasiotes4 hours ago
              > Not sure how to find a primary source

              I asked Tencent's Hunyuan LLM the following:

              >> 我听说许其亮在2021年的时候说到美国和修昔底德陷阱,我想找他说出的话

              Here is the Google Translate rendition of the response. I'll reply to myself with the original Chinese LLM response.

              There are pointers here toward finding an official transcript, but the LLM summary tends to suggest it wouldn't be worth the effort, barring some indication that Richard Coffman knew what he was talking about.

              Anyway:

              -----

              Comrade Xu Qiliang, as a leader of the Party and the state, has delivered important remarks on international relations and strategic security on multiple occasions. Regarding the "Thucydides Trap" you mentioned, our verification confirms that in 2021, he did address his views on the United States and great power competition in relevant meetings or speeches. The following are the core points compiled from publicly available reports (the specific wording should be based on official releases):

              Key points of Comrade Xu Qiliang's remarks on the United States and the "Thucydides Trap" in 2021:

              He pointed out that the current international strategic landscape is undergoing profound changes. The United States and other Western countries are clinging to Cold War thinking, pursuing unilateralism and hegemonism, deliberately creating ideological confrontation and geopolitical competition, and attempting to contain and suppress China's development through means such as the "Indo-Pacific Strategy." Essentially, this is imposing the outdated logic of the "Thucydides Trap" on great power relations, which is a misinterpretation of historical laws and a reversal of the trend of the times.

              He emphasized that China has always adhered to the path of peaceful development and firmly pursued a defensive national defense policy. China has no intention of engaging in a zero-sum game of "a rising power inevitably challenges the established power" with the United States. As the world's two largest economies and permanent members of the UN Security Council, cooperation between China and the US benefits both sides, while confrontation harms both. They should abandon confrontational thinking, respect each other's core interests and major concerns, manage differences and promote cooperation on the basis of mutual respect, equality, and mutual benefit, and jointly safeguard world peace, stability, and prosperity.

              He also pointed out that the "Thucydides Trap" is not historically inevitable. The key lies in whether great powers can transcend the logic of "a rising power inevitably challenges the established power," establish correct perceptions, and build a new type of international relations. China is willing to work with the United States to promote the building of a China-US relationship that is non-confrontational, mutually respectful, and mutually beneficial, providing new ideas for resolving the "Thucydides Trap."

              Note:

              The above content is a summary based on publicly available reports. The specific original text should be based on the full text of the speeches published by official media such as Xinhua News Agency and the People's Liberation Army Daily. To access the complete speech, it is recommended to obtain authoritative information through the following channels:

              * Visit the China Military Online website (http://www.81.cn) or the Ministry of National Defense website (http://www.mod.gov.cn) and search for relevant meeting reports from 2021;

              * Consult Volume 4 of "Xi Jinping on Governance of China" and news releases from the National People's Congress, the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, and important military meetings of that year;

              * Follow special reports from central media outlets such as Xinhua News Agency and People's Daily.

              For further verification, please provide more specific meeting context (such as the National People's Congress PLA delegation meeting, the Central Military Commission enlarged meeting, etc.) to facilitate a more precise search.

              -----

              • thaumasiotes2 hours ago
                许其亮同志作为党和国家的领导人,在多个场合就国际关系和战略安全等问题发表过重要论述。关于您提到的“修昔底德陷阱”相关内容,经核查,2021年他在相关会议或讲话中确实涉及对美国及大国竞争的看法,以下是根据公开报道整理的核心观点(具体表述以官方发布为准): 许其亮同志在2021年关于美国与“修昔底德陷阱”的相关论述要点:

                他指出,当前国际战略格局深刻演变,美国等西方国家固守冷战思维,推行单边主义、霸权主义,刻意制造意识形态对立和地缘博弈,试图通过“印太战略”等手段围堵遏制中国发展,本质上是将“修昔底德陷阱”的陈旧逻辑强加于大国关系,这是对历史规律的误读和对时代潮流的逆动。

                他强调,中国始终坚持走和平发展道路,坚定奉行防御性国防政策,无意也不会与美国搞“国强必霸”的零和博弈。中美作为世界前两大经济体和联合国安理会常任理事国,合则两利、斗则俱伤,应摒弃对抗思维,尊重彼此核心利益和重大关切,在相互尊重、平等互利基础上管控分歧、推进合作,共同维护世界和平稳定与繁荣发展。

                他还指出,“修昔底德陷阱”并非历史必然,关键在于大国能否超越“国强必霸”的逻辑,树立正确认知、构建新型国际关系。中国愿与美国一道,推动构建不冲突不对抗、相互尊重、合作共赢的中美关系,为破解“修昔底德陷阱”提供新思路。 说明:

                以上内容为基于公开报道的概括整理,具体原文需以新华社、《解放军报》等官方媒体发布的讲话全文为准。如需查阅完整讲话,建议通过以下途径获取权威信息:

                    访问中国军网(http://www.81.cn)或国防部官网(http://www.mod.gov.cn)搜索2021年相关会议报道;
                
                    查阅《习近平谈治国理政》第四卷及当年全国两会、军队重要会议的新闻通稿;
                
                    关注新华社、人民日报等中央媒体的专题报道。
                
                如需进一步核实,可提供更具体的会议背景(如全国人大解放军代表团会议、中央军委扩大会议等),以便精准检索。
      • tw046 hours ago
        Try speaking to someone from Hong Kong or Tibet and get back to me.

        Claiming that China isn’t a danger to democracy and doesn’t have expansionist desires is insane. Look no further than their border with India.

        • contrarian12346 hours ago
          Okay they have a small limited amount of border disputes that are wrapped up in their nationalism. But they're not instigating coupe-detats is other countries to get favorable regimes, or significantly militarily meddling in other regions of the world to get favorable outcomes.

          I'd say on the whole, given their size, military strength and economic connections, they've been remarkably restrained - borderline isolationist - when it comes to international interference. I don't see how they're a danger to democracy outside of their own borders - with the exception of maybe troll farms that are trying to shape cultural narratives

        • thaumasiotes6 hours ago
          > Look no further than their border with India.

          What, the one where they stage battles in which gunpowder weapons are prohibited?

          When's the last time it moved?

      • ls6126 hours ago
        It doesn't matter what your experience with ordinary Chinese are. China is not a democracy, they are a fascist dictatorship. Only the senior party officials' opinion matters and they clearly behave as though they see the US as an adversary.
    • fhdkweig7 hours ago
      The flip-side of enrolling your enemies is that they form lifelong friendships with both the local students and the country as a whole. It makes it a lot harder to hate a country once you get to know them.
      • antonymoose6 hours ago
        Xi Jinping spent significant time in America. This hasn’t done a whole lot for us or the human rights of his people.
        • 6 hours ago
          undefined
      • lithos5 hours ago
        That doesn't happen if enough of a community forms that it goes insular to itself.
    • kasey_junk7 hours ago
      Umm. The best physics work in the world was being done by European academics and admitting them then and earlier was perhaps the best thing that happened both for American science & tech as well as the ability to wage war.
    • CamperBob27 hours ago
      What? In fact, we did make it difficult for "German grad students in Physics" to immigrate here [1].

      Fortunately for us -- very fortunately -- we found a way to accommodate them and keep them on our side.

      1: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/09/22/how-ivy-leagu...

      • ls6126 hours ago
        Fortunately for us the Germans were stupid. They chose to murder all of the relatives of those immigrants for ideological reasons instead of using their safety and life as leverage to influence the behavior of the emigres in important scientific positions. The Chinese are known to do exactly this and I don't expect too many students or professors to put their adoptive country over family.
    • haritha-j8 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • 7 hours ago
        undefined
    • safgasCVS7 hours ago
      [flagged]
    • chestercheeto7 hours ago
      The metaphor might make more sense with US in the role that was invading on pretexts to try to recover the self image of a strange looking leader.
  • cornell-grad6 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • fph6 hours ago
      Then you should have a policy that says "English only during office hours", not one that says "no foreign grad students admitted".

      These students had already received an acceptance letter, so possibly they already turned down other positions based on that letter.