What we need is assistive technologies that complement our deficits. I won't use an app to just log I did something, but I will use an app if it's crucial to do that activity, and it makes it easier for me to do so.
I don't have ADHD myself but I'm heavy into home automation and am just interested in it in general, since I think there's so much potential for smart tech to actually improve the lives of those with ADHD.
Some things that come to mind:
- Washing machine alerts you if you have accidentally done washing and forgotten to take it out.
- Household lights change colour consistently throughout the day to assist with time blindness; house goes into wind-down mode at night automatically at the same time. Music starts automatically when you should be getting up out of bed. Coffee machine starts brewing coffee (if that's your thing).
- Doomscrolling pits like Instagram and Tiktok are disabled except for very specific times of the day.
- Extremely low friction note taking (eg- smartwatch, recorder pin) that's instantly available, searchable and automatable.
- Airtags for finding misplaced items quickly.
Also goes without saying -- when you know one person with ADHD.... you know one person with ADHD. What works for any particular person is going to be mostly unique, or at least a unique combination of things.
Essentially, anything that a) puts cues in your environment to help steer you in the right direction and b) requires very little executive function to access.
Is that on the right track?
My software is basically "self spyware", a (mouse/key/browser history/etc) logger for linux. In a way like an open source (though not yet) microsoft recall but even more extensive and with better search and no AI. The idea is to:
1. Be able to put in small notes easily and quickly without having to think of name, tags, etc.
2. Be able to recall what I did, when I did it and what else I did around that time, with _time_ being the main link. So you don't have to semantically link things together like in e.g. obsidian. You can, but using locality of reference should already provide good results.
I wrote some code already for the keylogging parts. Where I got stuck is when thinking about/designing the parts that require cryptography. When I have more free time I definitely want to get back to it.
What I found I need most due to my adhd:
1. A way to do anything "in the moment". Let's say I'm about to procrastinate on my phone but know I have to write an email. Then I must have the ability to do that very quickly right from my phone. If mentally the task of "turning on my laptop" and doing it there seems like too much, I won't do it. So the "preparation friction" to do any task must be as small as possible. This is somewhat a difficult problem but technologically it requires everything to be cross platform and easily accessible.
2. A way to very quickly confirm what I already did before or confirm that I already did something. I have to constantly confirm it because I can't remember if I did. This part is what my software tries to address.
> No amount of notifications and prodding will work to solve overwhelm and distraction.
+1000. Depending on the 'flavour' of ADHD one suffers, an app that requires data to drive graphs only creates more noise, which is a killer for ADHD brains, especially those with the 'hyperactive' traits of the disorder.
Less bells and whistles. Not more.
Your app interesting, but the tracking data and linked data required is an absolute non-starter for me. Privacy is key, especially for those who are really sensitive about revealing their ADHD diagnosis or symptoms. I know of people who have been discriminated against because of their ADHD diagnosis.
This isn’t for me (because I’ve already built a system that works), but this looks like something that would be very useful. For the target user who does feel stuck and hasn’t successfully built their system, this looks like a phenomenal product.
I appreciate the emphasis on self-reflection and perhaps the implied focus on continuous improvement.
Over the last few years I implemented a weekly self-review + planning practice (think solo agile retrospective), and my life has been on a steady trajectory of improvement since.
Edit: commenting on the product concept, not the company, pricing, or concerning tracking practices.
I love the weekly self review and planning practice you mention; I do a similar one with myself and my co-founder each week and have started moving that process into Indy recently!
Hyper scheduling: https://dev.to/maxpatiiuk/series/32301 (I stumbled upon this and implemented a form of it, although mostly I just like the colors in my calendar)
Yearly reflection: https://yearcompass.com/
Weekly reflection:
```md ## Preparation
- [ ] Review year compass - [ ] Review journal entries from the week - [ ] Review last week's reflection
## Quick summary
> *Headline for the week*:
## Basic planning
- [ ] Set up outline of the week in Outlook - [ ] Plan a fun weekend activity: - [ ] Plan to visit one new restaurant: - [ ] Plan one meet up or social activity:
## Values-based reflection
1. Health: - 2. Resilience: - 3. Social connection: - 4. Mindfulness: - 5. Adventure: -
## Retrospective
1. Went Well - 2. To improve - 3. Plan to improve/action items -
## Other notes
- ```
Daily reflection/journal:
```md
_Created: {{date}} {{time}}_ ({{date:DDD}}/365)
Gratitude (I am for three items):
Healthy Living Plan:
- Diet: - Exercise: - Work+Learning:
Daily reflection:
- Overall wellbeing (1-10): - Career: - Lifestyle hygiene: - Rose and thorn:
Journal:
```
I use TickTick because of the habit-tracking feature. Used to be todoist loyalist but it sucks for habits. https://help.ticktick.com/articles/7055781878401335296
Key habits I track:
- meditation (I combine with a fancy LED face mask to help reinforce the habit via my desire to combat wrinkles and acne - the cryoglow is better at acne than wrinkles so far) - exercise (you can add notes) - evening leisure time (if I don’t have dedicated leisure time, I end up revenge bedtime procrastinating/doomscrolling) - stretching (there are two simple band stretching exercises that solved what I thought would be life-long neck and shoulder pain)
When I really struggle with productivity, I find the pomodoro system is a good bootstrap, and TickTick makes it easy to start. I like seeing the pomos on the built-in calendar.
Yet, I do hear this sort of thing works for people. I'd love to know more about what you experience and why this helps.
The calendars and checklists really help with not forgetting things, and getting back on task once distracted. I can have 100 adhd moments; the system can’t prevent that, but it can help me find my way back to shore when I’m lost at sea.
I don’t really struggle with kitchen cleaning, but sometimes I do set out to clean the kitchen and end up folding laundry or scrolling instead. I can do that but if I haven’t checked off “clean the kitchen”, I know to come back to it.
The weekly reflection is a chore but I set aside time for it, and I keep doing it because it works. I can spend an hour doing deep reflection, or I can rush through it, there is value either way. It is really just a check list, and check lists are very ADHD friendly.
Separately, I find that physical and mental health improve performance regardless - so a system that improves these factors _is_ a system that helps with ADHD. Getting to bed on time, and building the system that produces that outcome, is an ADHD-friendly system. I struggle with this, but I try to get better over time by experimenting and adjusting.
The reality is that the system will not solve ADHD problems, the system is just a tool - you still have to do the work. Same for the app that is being shared.
Yes, it can feel like a chore at times (especially forcing myself to do more in-depth periodic reflections) but without a system like this, I quickly find myself completely rudderless & my mental health & productivity both collapse pretty quickly.
You'll actually hear quite frequently that people diagnosed relatively late in life went under the radar for so long exactly because we developed our own massively over compensating systems like this & can appear (externally at least) to almost have the exact opposite of "executive function issues"!
I can't say for certain that this is caused by my ADHD or not, but I have a "sensitivity" to dark patterns. That is to say, dark patterns bug me more than they probably should.
Hiding the pricing until after signup is a dark pattern. It's a clear case of the company optimizing for their interests over mine and they are therefore unworthy of my trust (or so my brain tells me). After all, what other user-hostile design decisions are they going to make?
What ends up happening is that my brain puts its guard up, and keeps it up. It's constantly on the lookout for more subtle tricks and corner cutting.
Furthermore, I'm offended that they think I'm that stupid (but that's probably the developer in me and not my ADHD).
The landing page piqued my interest but then let me down. Hard. Not because $40 a month (as reported by another user here) is too much, but because I find dark patterns to be morally repugnant.
[0] https://edgefoundation.org/the-fairness-imperative-adhd-and-...
P.S. I struggled to write this as its first thing in the morning and I haven't even had coffee.
That Edge Foundation website isn't a good resource. It's SEO filler content for them to feed their coaching sales funnel.
The actual study it linked is more informative. They surveyed a group of kids about their reaction to different scenarios of injustice and also ADHD traits. They found a positive correlation between ADHD and sensitivity to injustice from the victim perspective, but substantially lower sensitivity to injustice from the perpetrator perspective.
Given that this study was purely in 10-19 year olds (mostly children) and the opposite results for victim and perpetrator injustice, I suspect it's just measuring emotional maturity among the kids. The study also noticed a high correlation with angry and anxious responses, which further supports the correlation to emotional and interpersonal maturity.
The cost you're seeing is for our other product that includes live body doubling (co-working) sessions that are guided by our ADHD coaches. I think I might remove that link or move it to the bottom. Sorry for the confusion!
One needs to spend less time on devices. Go analogue. Pen and paper. The best tool that I have found is the Bullet Journal Method. It takes time, effort, and there is a learning curve. The ROI is higher than from any app. No other tool has impacted my life and productivity more.
That said, I have found some tertiary apps to be helpful, though my BuJo is my compass. Endel for time boxing/Pomodoro, and sleep. Headspace for guided meditation.
No, it doesn’t have to be aesthetic, with pretty lettering and doodles (as seen in social media).
I strongly disagree. While that approach may work for you, it did not work for me. I do not believe there is a one size fits all approach in this regard. My limitation is far more on the executive side than it is with distractibility or addiction, my devices present no sigificant negative impact in that regard.
> One needs to spend less time on devices. Go analogue. Pen and paper. The best tool that I have found is the Bullet Journal Method.
That may be true for you, but device usage itself is not a problem for me. I spent significant time attempting bullet journaling and found it ineffective, it increased cognitive overhead and time spent managing the system rather than executing tasks. Additionally, handwriting based systems are not well suited to me due to motor limitations from an incomplete spinal cord injury.
I use a single Kanban board in Trello to manage my entire life. It works precisely because it is digital. Always accessible, frictionless, and available wherever I am. For me, that constant availability is essential.
> The ROI is higher than from any app.
For you, perhaps. For me, adopting a Kanban based digital system was life changing. As you suggested of your own system, no other tool has had a greater positive impact on my organisation or productivity than Trello. The only thing which has had even remotely the same level of impact is medication.
For Trello itself (kanban) I think the reason it worked when nothing else did is due to its visual/spacial nature, combined with WIP limits and low friction capture. But it didnt truly click until I could have it with me at all times. Whenever I notice I've gotten distracted or drifted, no matter where I am I know i'm one "click" away effectively from re-orienting myself on what I was supposed to be doing and what matters.
(proceeds to never write in the notebook as I don't want to sully it and don't really know where to start)
I know this is probably not something that a tech tool will fix on its own, but do you mind sharing your config and how you converged to something that worked?
(2) Relying on, and committing to, an app like this has high requirements of diligence for efficacy; in an age of extractive apps, users might doubt even promising apps, and be less prone to adopt or maintain. So there's a yawning participation gap.
Relying on AI for the interactivity/liveness to maintain participation could work, but actually then puts a lot of quality pressure on the AI. The first off tone could prompt escape. How do you scale QA for that?
So, I'd think this needs to be coupled with social factors: testimonials and community building.
Efficacy testimonials would distinguish this from other self-management apps. Allowing users to gift others the app would spread the word. Providing users an in-app way to share feedback could help with QA, particularly if it was validated by others' responses. e.g., "I don't like this phrasing. It sounds like x." reply: "yeah, others agree so we're working on that" or "we'll look into it" Maybe only people who participate diligently get the ability to gift the app to others (but I would steer clear of obvious incentives/kickbacks).
I think the killer feature would be dedication to reporting actual feedback. Admit that it won't work for everyone, require feedback on whether it's working, and post that feedback to all users. Then work on improving it, either by fixing the app or selecting users better. That would given people confidence and mitigate the loneliness. Users should feel that they're not only helping themselves, but helping others like them. To me that commitment to others often gets me over a momentary lack of commitment to my larger self.
I think Indy has a lot of good intentions, but I am highly suspicious of its efficacy. Personally, I have always been somewhat opposed of using applications on distracting and addicting devices in order to help with executive function issues. It's all too easy to open my phone to use one application and then seemingly end up on a completely different application mere minutes later.
Do you all have any analytics to share? I am curious how many people download Indy vs. how many people actually use it on a consistent basis. I can absolutely seem myself downloading such an application, attempting to set it up, and either stopping halfway through or never opening the app again.
> what other AI tools you’ve tried for ADHD
None. I do not believe LLMs in their current state can meaningfully help any neurodevelopmental nor mental health disorders. Until LLMs acquire the ability to force me to do a particular task or provide enough consequences for not doing a particular task, then I see them as no different than overcomplicated Todo lists for ADHD. Though, I do believe LLMs remove a lot of friction in getting started on certain types of work. Most importantly, I already have to be motivated in the first place in order to use LLMs to remove friction on whatever task I am attempting to complete.
I personally believe a lot of productivity apps, especially for ADHD, are just distraction traps that provide the user with an illusory sense of productivity, when in reality, the user is actually just procrastinating further.
Perhaps this is merely a projection on my part, but I think a lot of people have convinced themselves that various apps will yield better organization and that better organization will yield better habits. But why do people want better habits? My first inclination is that people believe if something becomes a habit, then it will become effortless and one will not have to rely on motivation or willpower anymore.
However, the irony is that it takes consistent and direct effort to even build a habit. Once a habit is built, the consistent effort never stops, but rather, one just adapts to the amount of effort required. The older I become, the more I convinced that there really are no shortcuts in life.
Interesting thought behind using 1) force and 2) consequences to get tasks done. I think those are definitely 2 useful levers, but there are other levers to get these things done too (of course, without context to what tasks you're referring to). On Indy, we use positive motivation & emotional salience to help users connect their current task to future goals, we help them explore if there's a gap of [capability], [opportunity], or [motivation] to get something done (COM-B model), and help them draw on past strategies that have worked for them that they may have forgot (non-exhaustive). Indy is intentionally not a to-do list, there's actually no lists in there, as lists get overwhelming, but instead helps the users cut down and reflect on what's really important today or this week to get to your life goals (existential productivity vs. traditional productivity).
I like your line of thinking at the end there. A lot of our members come in thinking they want better organization / productivity / habits, or in general just MORE, but we know through research that that doesn't actually yield a more fruitful life. And yes haha, no shortcuts in life, but I try to enjoy the process :)
Why are you (indirectly by omission) asking a cohort of people who need information to be direct, to redirect? That's a serious market/message mismatch.
> Our care team has skewed the landing page to be a bit more of "show the benefit" rather than the functionality
That is what the snake oil industry does. Or enterprise sales. Even cults. ("Look at what we say these people say about us!" "We have a solution to your problem! [restated several times in different ways]!"
I am baffled by the term "care team" in this context.
I find that being concrete and credible, instead of asking people who don't know you for trust and unrewarded interest out of the gate, is a much better way to communicate something that is real.
If you do have a way to help ADHD people, I wish you luck communicating that. As an ADHD person myself, I have system creation/adoption fatigue. You seem to be aware of this. So be very direct about exactly what you do that helps, so someone that has tried many things, i.e. a sophisticated customer by necessity, can judge anything you say. (As they say in science, non-testable claims are not worth much. When marketing solutions to serious problems, this relates to the first thing you show people.)
A huge intro post, like a text wall. That's everything an adhd person is trying to avoid.
Started the app. A couple of "motivational speeches". Asking some questions I don't even understand. Answered randomly, just to see what the app is offering. At the end: account required.
That's where you first lost me.
So I tried the website. First sentence just some sale-pitch-speech:
> Built from lessons learned after 80,000+ ADHD coaching sessions, Indy gives you the structure you need, daily support that keeps you accountable, and momentum you can actually sustain.
On the right some nothing-saying screenshot. Scrolling down. More text. Buzzword-Bingo. "Journey". "Build a vision." "Stop dreaming about your future. Start building it."
Great, another one of those catchy, fancy offers pretending to help you. Another pretty website from the default vercel-ish website-builder.
No offense - perhaps it's my asperger. This does not seem helpful at all. Maybe it is. Then it's on me.
I need clear, focussed messages. No noise. No modern interface. Form follows function. Not the other way around.
Unfortunately - I've got ADHD. I'm not going to spend the next 10 minutes telling the app the biggest facts about my life. Well, actually - I tried to, then I put the phone down to do something else, and when I came back the 'page' had refreshed and the four things I had entered were back down to just the first one.
(Why do you even want them? The app hasn't even explained how this will help. It's barely even tried to explain what the app will actually DO.)
I wonder if the folks doing marketing are neurotypical, but they are trying to target a population that's neurodivergent? Just spitballing since I have no info, but an interesting topic.
The landing page sucks. In my first impression my eyes immediately darted to the animated graphics/webms. The text reads like it was written by AI with the sentences in triplets everywhere. Immediately my trust for this site (which was finicky at first) has already gone down. If you can't sustain my attention in the banner, what makes me think you can sustain my attention for the app? Be direct - show me what your app does at a glance. My attention is very scarce and very expensive, don't waste it on vague niceties or depend on me to trust you on what you say other people are saying about your app. I feel like you're trying to cheat me out of own autonomy when you're selling me something (even if it's free, my time = money) that I have no idea what it does until I get to the FAQ. My 2c - put the FAQ in the very top, with the questions "Is this just another AI chatbot?" and "How does Indy fit with ADHD coaching or other support?" in order with minimized distractions. This tells me what your product is and what it isn't at face value.
This is hard to find and not always possible. The reason it works is that it triggers the "empathy brain," which transfers the importance of the person to the importance of the task. Having an invested person always at your command is impossible, and an AI robot simply doesn't trigger that same empathy. It costs three cents per interaction. It is a robot. It isn't important, no matter how advanced it is.
There is something fascinating yet defeating about how the ADHD brain craves human connection. Just as loneliness can’t be solved by an app, ADHD cannot be "app-ed" out. I have found that these systems can lighten the cognitive load, but that is their limit.
I have a vibed chief-of-staff personal system. It knows everything and it neatly mapped out my state and day. I even know the first simple task I need to do because a prompt organized it for me on another page. Yet, I would still rather write this comment here. You already know this at some level, too.
I found this didnt really do anything for me.
> ADHD cannot be "app-ed" out.
I have found significant success with Kanban. To the point where at times, I can even go unmedicated and still somewhat progress. With medication I might as well be superhuman.
Something about the WIP limit, the way I structure it so that I can see the timeframes (Next month, next week, today etc) and the moving of tasks from left to right really clicked with my brain.
It's been the most successful intervention in terms of my treatment in the entirety of my existence.
But it is by far the best way to motivate myself.
It swings both ways for me. Either super comfortable or uncomfortable.
What doesn't work is hiring a virtual assistant to hold me accountable. As soon as I pay them and they report to me, they are the same loop as my own brain. No empathy brain! :D. This is bleak I know.
Needs to be something where you can't just stop as you wish.
Body doubling is different though. for that basically anyone works from my experience
1) A big differentiation is the guidance. Indy is based on science-backed frameworks and exercises that set the foundation for and fuel the main scaffolding interactions. For example, by going through the lifeline exercise when you sign up, members are prompted to think of future events across different life areas (vs. often when you tackle this yourself you may just start working on productivity/work oriented things for example) and the objective function of the app is general well-being rather than productivity
2) Indy is built not to give you answers but to build your capacity. For example, in the problem solving agent, it teaches you the COM-B framework through demonstration, and I've already talked to many members who are surprised that they found themselves going through similar thought process even when Indy wasn't there and getting things done that they haven't been able to in months or years
3) Sounds trivial but the design and user experience. It's built for ADHD and although not perfect and there's tons we want to add, the app is trained to help you see the good (pulling out wins, surfacing it in pretty ways, allowing you to add photos to build salience, etc.) to build self trust over time; and other UI / illustration choices to provide some dopamine (and we've considered hard the balance between providing dopamine but not trying to just get people to return to the app for the sake of it)
Edit: A followup, if you still happen to see this edit. What about the privacy concerns that users may have. My interest is for a super-high functioning young adult that is very careful about their privacy and web footprint.
The key to this would be everything running locally, privacy preserving. The LLM would observe everything that is happening on screen, notice when someone is distracted by reddit (or HN!) and help refocus people.
Perfectly doable on even a moderately spec'd MacBook now days.
I also have to say something about the "for those who feel stuck... indy will be your compass" reads incredibly fucking dystopian to me.
And hear you on that copy! We tested it with our beta community and it was based off of thousands of ADHDers main sentiment & challenge. Here are the top ones if you're curious: “I’m stuck and something has to change”; “I don’t trust myself anymore”; “I want direction, not another to-do list”; “I want to work with my ADHD, not fight it”; we'll be continuing to test this as we talk to more users!
I suspect that the ADHD audience on HN would skew towards people who have already developed coping mechanisms and systems (and some people seem to have very high intellectual horsepower), so you might not find the best market fit or feedback here. I think I am past the point where this may have been a fit for me, but earlier in my life it may have been very useful.
Edit: Can you explain what "clear boundaries around non-medical use" means?
If there's anyone in your life who's earlier on in their journey, do send Indy their way!
re: Non-medical use, Indy doesn't give advice, diagnose, treat, or interpret symptoms. We don’t tell people what they SHOULD do. We focus on reflection, structuring thoughts, noticing patterns, and helping users orient themselves, so that they build autonomy and capacity over time. E.g. generic LLMs don't often have tight guardrails and they can drift into prescriptive or quasi-clinical territory simply because that’s what users ask for.
Can't speak for everyone, but as one guy - I wish lol. I'm just raw dogging life - to use Gen Z (or is it Alpha?) lingo.
(I wanted to add a sarcastic thing to my message but I'm too tired to even do that without sounding rude.)
I don't have a diagnosis, but I can say that choosing what to do very often seems like the stumbling block for me.
I used Shimmer in 2022. The app had poor UX and frequent bugs, and the core offering (weekly Google Meet sessions with a “coach”) felt like generic self-help and not personalized coaching. The promised between-session support mostly consisted of DM'd article links, even after I raised that concern directly.
The sessions themselves often felt unprofessional, with background noise, unstable connections, and poor audio quality. The coach WFM'd on their couch during call. Given the price (hundreds of dollars per month at the time), the gap between what was marketed and what was delivered was significant.
Hopefully the new product addresses these issues, but I’d encourage people evaluating it to look at Shimmer’s prior execution and customer feedback, not just the announcement.
While I have you: any advice for how to suggest to someone else that they consider your app? I'm met with defensiveness at every suggestion I make; the app seems compelling enough to me as a neurotypical person though, and I'd love to see them try something like this.
for apple: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/indy-your-adhd-copilot/id67543...
for google: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.shimmer.co...
I think technological systems for managing ADHD are targeted mainly towards J-type personalities (Myers-Briggs).
As a hard P-type, I generally perceive Systems as detrimental to my well-being. A take which of course is riddled with both fallacies and exceptions (so don't hold me too harshly to it).
What's holding me back from checking out any sort of recommandation is the fear of commitment.
Everything eventually becomes one (or more) of the following:
- A joyous commitment - A meaningfull commitment - A stressfull commitment
Having a kitten is joyous. Having a 17 year old cat is all of the above.
Systems—good, usefull and fascinating as they may be—generally tend to fit in the 'stressfull' category. Especially those who encroach toward a hobby/hyper-fixation during the honeymoon period.
(The one system I still use on a day-to-day basis is a calendar. Because I have to. It's not joyous, but it's meaningfull.)
How do you approach improving your personal outcomes related to ADHD without developing a system?
Some practical examples:
- I have a job without any long-term projects (only long-term goals), so I never get bored from my tasks.
- I keep my evening schedules clear so I have room to be spontaneous in my hobbies after work. This is prabably made easier by being an introvert as I don't have the need to socialize often.
- I nurture an attitude toward my hobbies which is that the process in itself is always the goal. That it is okay to not finish a project as long as I keep learning new things.
- I depricate any stressfull commitment which is neither important or meaningfull long-term.
Also medication helps to overcome the menial hurdels.
Is this yet another US-based startup that totally misunderstands that GDPR is not about blocking "cookies" but instead that it is about not telling Google that someone just visited an ADHD-related website?
I'm dumbfounded by the ignorance every single time. Why do people spend effort on cookie banners and stuff when they simply include every tracking script on first load of the website?
I'm not advocating that you need to be GDPR compliant if you are US-based and dgaf about EU customers. But if you do these shenanigans with cookie banner then at least do them correctly. And even for non-EU customers it is extremely rude to share visits to a health related website with so many third party companies that clearly build tracking profiles and utilize them to extract as much money from you as possible.
Basic collection your data.
You might be heading to our community service on our main website, which is a different one (live body doubling, etc.)