118 pointsby thunderbong5 hours ago4 comments
  • adzm2 hours ago
    https://github.com/libjxl/jxl-rs jxl-rs is the underlying implementation. It's relatively new but Rust certainly calms security fears. This library wasn't really an option last time this came around in chromium.
    • quikoa2 hours ago
      Didn't Google refuse adding JpegXL because they claimed there wasn't enough interest? I don't think they refused out of security concerns but maybe I'm misremembering that.
      • pixelesquean hour ago
        Google argued that duplicating largely (I know JpegXL does support a bit more, but from most users' perspectives, they're largely right) what AVIF provided while being written in an unsafe language was not what they wanted in terms in increasing the attack surface.
        • adzman hour ago
          And it really was the right move at the time, imo. JXL however now has better implementations and better momentum in the wider ecosystem and not just yet another image format that gets put into chrome and de facto becomes a standard.
  • LtdJorgean hour ago
    I’ve recently compared WebP and AVIF with the reference encoders (and rav1e for lossy AVIF), and for similar quality, WebP is almost instant while AVIF takes more than 20 seconds (1MP image).

    JXL is not yet widely supported, so I cannot really use it (videogame maps), but I hope its performance is similar to WebP with better quality, for the future.

    • adzman hour ago
      You have to adjust the CPU used parameter, not just quality, for AVIF. Though it can indeed be slow it should not be that slow, especially for a 1mp image. The defaults usually use a higher CPU setting for some reason. I have modest infrastructure that generates 2MP AVIF in a hundred ms or so.
      • LtdJorge5 minutes ago
        I tested both WebP and AVIF with maximum CPU usage/effort. I have not tried the faster settings because I wanted the highest quality for small size, but for similar quality WebP blew AVIF out of the water.

        I also have both compiled with -O3 and -march=znver2 in GCC (same for rav1e's RUSTFLAGS) through my Gentoo profile.

  • viktorcode2 hours ago
    Anyone knows if their implementation supports animations? This is a feature missing from Apple's
  • jakkos3 hours ago
    I've been hearing about fights over JpegXL and WebP (and AVIF?) for years, but don't know much about it.

    From a quick look at various "benchmarks" JpegXL seems just be flat out better than WebP in both compression speed and size, why has there been such reluctance from Chromium to adopt it? Are there WebP benefits I'm missing?

    My only experience with WebP has been downloading what is nominally a `.png` file but then being told "WebP is not supported" by some software when I try to open it.

    • jmillikin2 hours ago
      Most of the code in WebP and AVIF is shared with VP8/AV1, which means if your browser supports contemporary video codecs then it also gets pretty good lossy image codecs for free. JPEG-XL is a separate codebase, so it's far more effort to implement and merely providing better compression might not be worth it absent other considerations. The continued widespread use of JPEG is evidence that many web publishers don't care that much about squeezing out a few bytes.

      Also from a security perspective the reference implementation of JPEG-XL isn't great. It's over a hundred kLoC of C++, and given the public support for memory safety by both Google and Mozilla it would be extremely embarrassing if a security vulnerability in libjxl lead to a zero-click zero-day in either Chrome or Firefox.

      The timing is probably a sign that Chrome considers the Rust implementation of JPEG-XL to be mature enough (or at least heading in that direction) to start kicking the tires.

      • latexran hour ago
        > The continued widespread use of JPEG is evidence that many web publishers don't care that much about squeezing out a few bytes.

        I agree with the second part (useless hero images at the top of every post demonstrate it), but not necessarily the first. JPEG is supported pretty much everywhere images are, and it’s the de facto default format for pictures. Most people won’t even know what format they’re using, let alone that they could compress it or use another one. In the words of Hank Hill:

        > Do I look like I know what a JPEG is? I just want a picture of a god dang hot dog.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvKTOHVGNbg

        • jmillikinan hour ago
          I'm not (only) talking about the general population, but major sites. As a quick sanity check, the following sites are serving images with the `image/jpeg` content type:

          * CNN (cnn.com): News-related photos on their front page

          * Reddit (www.reddit.com): User-provided images uploaded to their internal image hosting

          * Amazon (amazon.com): Product categories on the front page (product images are in WebP)

          I wouldn't expect to see a lot of WebP on personal homepages or old-style forums, but if bandwidth costs were a meaningful budget line item then I would expect to see ~100% adoption of WebP or AVIF for any image that gets recompressed by a publishing pipeline.

    • rdsubhas7 minutes ago
      > various "benchmarks" JpegXL seems just be flat out better than WebP

      The decode speed benchmarks are misleading. WebP has been hardware accelerated since 2013 in Android and 2020 in Apple devices. Due to existing hardware capabilities, real users will _always_ experience better performance and battery life with webp.

      JXL is more about future-proofing. Bit depth, Wide gamut HDR, Progressive decoding, Animation, Transparency, etc.

      JXL does flat out beats AVIF (the image codec, not videos) today. AVIF also pretty much doesn't have hardware decoding in modern phones yet. It makes sense to invest NOW in JXL than on AVIF.

      For what people use today - unfortunately there is no significant case to beat WebP with the existing momentum. The size vs perceptive quality tradeoffs are not significantly different. For users, things will get worse (worser decode speeds & battery life due to lack of hardware decode) before it gets better. That can take many years – because hey, more features in JXL also means translating that to hardware die space will take more time. Just the software side of things is only now picking up.

      But for what we all need – it's really necessary to start the JXL journey now.

    • jacobp1003 hours ago
      JpegXL and AVIF are comparable formats. Google argued you only needed one, and each additional format is a security vulnerability.
      • londons_explore25 minutes ago
        And more importantly, an additional format is a commitment to maintain support forever, not only for you, but for future people who implement a web browser.

        I can completely see why the default answer to "should we add x" should be no unless there is a really good reason.

    • coppsilgold2 hours ago
      JPEG XL has progressive decoding

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UphN1_7nP8U

    • speps3 hours ago
      It was an issue with the main JPEGXL library being unmaintained and possibly open for security flaws. Some people got together and wrote a new one in Rust which then became an acceptable choice for a secure browser.
      • a-french-anon2 hours ago
        Unmaintained? You must be mistaken, libjxl was getting a healthy stream of commits.

        The issue was the use of C++ instead of Rust or WUFFS (that Chromium uses for a lot of formats).

    • out_of_protocol3 hours ago
      - avif is better at low bpp (low-quality images), terrible in lossless

      - jxl is better at high bpp, best in lossless mode

    • archerx2 hours ago
      Google created webp and that is why they are giving it unjustified preferential treatment and has been trying to unreasonably force it down the throat of the internet.
      • adzm11 minutes ago
        WebP gave me alpha transparency with lossy images, which came in handy at the time. It was also not bogged down by patents and licensing. Plus like others said, if you support vp8 video, you pretty much already have a webp codec, same with AV1 and avif
      • breppp28 minutes ago
        unjustified preferential treatment over jpegxl a format google also had created
        • archerx24 minutes ago
          They helped create jpegXL but they are not the sole owner like they are with webp. There is a difference.