This is why you hear about old grannies being arrested and deported and random immigrant workers with no criminal history being nabbed.
Basically, ICE is a group of bounty hunters and they have no qualms about breaking the law if it leads to a nice payday.
I understand their recruitment incentives are out of this world, but have not found reliable source for per-deportation incentives, and want to make sure I argue with 100% factually supported data.
If we say there are ~~11 million under documented immigrants, there are literally hundreds of thousands if not millions that e.g. Were legal until the orange orangutan decided otherwise. There are people under ambiguous laws and people in tricky cases.
This is the equivalent to saying everybody who went 57mph in 55mph zone is a criminal and should be executed.
Life has nuance.
They will certainly attempt to dismiss any charges, but they are far from guaranteed that they will be successful.
So is it part of their official duties to walk in front of a car of someone who is trying to leave the scene, alter their path when the car turns out of the way to ensure they remain in their way, and then shoot the driver? Or is that merely the kind of excessive force that's in contravention of their training and not part of their job role?
I just don't hold much faith in the separation of power between state and federal government, it sounds like there has been a massive erosion of this barrier since the civil war and the abuse of the commerce clause and all that.
1. Prosecution. US wont because of trump. State might not because of some threat from trump.
2. Proof beyond reasonable doubt. Video can make case for self defence so bar is high.
3. No presidential pardon.
2. We'll let the jury decide but ICE is specifically trained not to shoot at moving vehicles and not to approach them from the front.
3. The president can't pardon someone convicted of murder in a state court, he can only pardon people convicted of federal crimes.
"Minnesota officials say FBI blocked their access to ICE shooting probe"
0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKj1KijpoY
1. https://x.com/kirscheverstahl/status/2009079585783337210
note: edit to add clip instead of reply because rate-limited.
anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't been paying attention to the hundreds of analogous situations that have been happening to blacks.
literally just look it up, the exact scenario has already played out before. cop gets off. and I mean literally exact scenario - with two cops, one in front, one to the side, driver (black) tries to drive off, front cop shoots and kills the black guy, is convicted, and acquitted. seriously, look it up.
George Zimmerman stalked Treyvon Martin, shot and killed him and was still acquitted. you think this guy is going to be convicted really?
I wouldn't put the chance of a conviction here at 100%, but it's certainly well above 0%.
if you have an example of a similar situation where the cop is convicted I am very very interested.
[0] the naming of which also turned out to be another lie, surprise surprise
The law is enforced based on the general feelings of the people in power, and they will bend principles to punish/reward those that they perceive to be "bad" and "good" accordingly, based on their prejudices.
The idea that "might makes right" is sort of a tautology. What you consider to be right is based on a historical precedent set by the mighty.
And my country (unfortunately) isnt even in NATO.
If you add up the budgets of all the various "police" forces in the US, how much money is spent each year keeping the domestic population in line?
I'm interested, as it seems that lots of groups in the US have their own overlapping police force rather than relying on "the" police. Apart from the total budget, it would be interesting to see a list of all the various police type forces at work in the US.
But now we aren't talking about intelligence services anymore. ICE truly is Stasi for America, employing tactics such as "isolating them, depriving them of sleep and using psychological tricks such as threatening to arrest relatives." (From Wikipedia about Stasi.)
This year ICE will also become the "armed wing of the Party" thanks to fresh funding.
The administration's kept them on side with culture wars red meat so far...
But the further ICE / police militarization goes, the more awkward the situation with right-wing militia types is going to get.
MAGA was chanting "president of peace" only a few months ago, and did anyone complain about Venezuela? Not a peep. They thrive on logical contradictions.
Grandpa: "It was a very controversial time, yes. Lots of people doing what they believed was best."
Grandchild: "Did ICE ever go after you?"
Grandpa: "I worked for the--it was only office--I mean, I was unemployed then. Yes, that's right! Tricky economy, don't you know. Only odd-jobs. I lived in a place where those things weren't happening. In fact, most of us didn't really know about it until it was all over. You remember that, right dear?"
Mother: <frustrated death-glare> "...Come along, let's wash your hands before dinner."
If not, and if you have 3 hours, there's a documentary you can watch. The director said "It was like I went to Germany 40 years after WW2 and found out the Nazis had won".
There was an "anti-communist" massacre in Indonesia in 1965. The killers were sanctioned by the government who remained in power/are still very powerful nowadays. (When a reformist president said "maybe we can look at this part of the country's past", the rumour was, the army was going to let protesters (who are still gung-ho communist-hating) protest near the presidential palace, and not intervene if/when they invade it.
This documentary follows one old killer and his "journey" from being able to talk about it casually until he ends up meeting his conscience.
Here he is in the beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZqEzIEWzPk
And the full documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TDeEObjR9Q
Apples and oranges, though, and it's all fruit.
interesting that the ICE is performing that hallmark of 20th century - mass removal of "undesirable" people from society and placement them into the camps without criminal charge and judicial oversight, etc. thus totally undermining the main contract between government and society - due process.
At this point in time, it's not apparent if the current regime will prevail. Thus, it's time for brownshirt tactics. When Presidential/King/Dictatorial power is fully consolidated, States' Rights are just a memory, and all nonloyal judges are fired, it's time for the disciplined Career Bureaucrats to join ICE.
Shall we put a reminder in our calendars to talk again in 2037?
Check out Indeed.com and search for IT gigs in Northern VA or MD or DC, or a couple other federal-ish locations.
Lots of "180k for 6 month contract supporting DHS client deploying next gen cameras"
— Sent from my Palantir employee device
(Satire, if not obvious.)
But perhaps fleeing is also punishable by Death by our new Stasi/Judge Dread balaclava wearing hybrids.
The argument was, yes it's legal to put a tail on a person when they're out in public because that's just a cop observing a person of interest out in public. But electronic trackers are something quantifiable different due to the ease of tracking many people without having to use manpower to do it. It's the thin-edge of mass, casual surveillance of the population.
In other words, putting a tail on someone should be manpower intensive because that's a check on police power, they have to really want to track someone to invest potentially several officers' time to it full time, whereas sticking a bug on a car is something they can do to dozens of cars per day per officer.
Of course now they don't even have to do that because our police state has normalized centralized cctv camera databases, license plate trackers that continuously track the movement of every vehicle in a city into a database. Now they're doing the same with facial recognition.
Now it's even a felony in Florida to do anything to block license plate trackers from tagging your vehicle (so you can't obscure your plate in a way that leaves it readable to humans but not to the automatic tracking software). No doubt we'll have such laws for facial recognition software soon as well.
Police were always allowed to bug a vehicle with a court order. They weren't allowed to just casually bug random people's cars because that's mass-surveillance. Now mass-surveillance is completely normalized. Every citizen is treated as a potential criminal and surveilled into a database.
A good friend of mine who also works on tech is utterly disconnected from current events. Whenever I offer a discussion or say “hey did you hear about X?” his response is always skepticism that such a thing could occur. He has a newborn and now he’s even more disconnected (somewhat more understandable given the child).
It seems like a lot of people in tech are like that, or increasingly like that. I have a diverse stable of publications, journalists, subject matter current events podcasters, and other sources in my feed readers and my circle. Sitting between these things, it seems like there is a widening gulf.
ICE carried out it's mission without all the theatrics before, and deported more people in previous years. The theatrics, and the collateral damage to American citizens or those with actual temporary rights to be here, is the point with this current administration. A fair and apt comparison.
I guess Nazi came to power because of ignorance and stupidity of the people around them.
The laws are a pretense for action. The goal is racial fear-mongering by any means. Citizens are getting caught up in this and the administration doesn't care.
OP's comment was "why did no one stop the Nazi's". Because it didn't start with the gas chambers. It ended there. We can always make slippery slope arguments. But when that slope starts to look steep....OP's original question kind of answers itself.
People rationalize it, they downplay the atrocities, they don't care for the victims, "it's just the law", any excuse. Current citizens and illegal immigrants are thrown in overly packed cages, starved, no water, and unhygenic. I mean, how close to the gas chambers do we have to get? When they actually start stripping them of their possessions and clothes and wealth? When they start the labor camps?
OP's question is salient. Most people don't act, because it is never bad enough. It never will be. Until one day it finally is. That's why the Nazi's got so far.
Trump isn't going to gas immigrants. No, I don't think that will happen. But the slope looks steep.
Immigration laws I am fine with, some I disagree with, but that's the nature of government.
Interesting how all the laws ICE breaks aren't part of the discussion. Just the ones immigrants break. Should we engage in overly violent reactions to minor infractions by ICE? Why aren't we?
You see the asymmetry of application of the laws? Obviously, if this were about "law and order", this would be done in an orderly fashion, and disorderly application of the law would be punished in a lawful and orderly way.
But it isn't. Because, obviously. The laws do not matter to this administration. They are a post hoc justification for action. It's why Trump just does whatever and then waits for court challenges. It's why he stiffed his own contractors for decades. He doesn't care for the law.
This focus on "what the law says" for immigrants is bizarre, given Trump obviously does not care what the law says. Trump unilaterally re-allocated funds to ICE to engage in his witch hunt.
When will we stop navel-gazing about "the immigration laws" and start seriously asking "why does Trump continue to find innovative ways to shatter every legal separation of powers"?
Seriously, compared to that, immigration is a far-gone minor issue. And that is precisely how you get to Nazi Germany. So much ink spilled on minor infractions by people with no power, but nothing said about those in the highest positions of power abusing and breaking it daily.
What a farcical debate.
You can call that "enforcing the law" once you admit that the "law" is, at this point, the whim of a despot and his cronies
Unfortunate timing of this article going live... Some of that seems quaint now.
Allegedly, the agent shot in self defense, but the shot was taken after the car started moving away from the agent.
The woman was identified as a 37 year old US citizen. She was not part of any ICE protest groups.
That video doesn't show the officer that shot, that you say was hit, reaching for and unholstering his weapon as she was reversing and then stepping into the turn cicle in front of the car to fire at her.
If he got hit then it was as a result of placing himself there in order to shoot the driver.
Legally, this is clear unjustified use of force.
The driver backed up, turned wheel prior to moving forward, and drove forward to leave.
During this, the ICE officer advanced, drawing his weapon, stepped into the turn circle of the vehicle, fired, and then jumped out of the way.
It's unclear whether he was hit, it is clear that he moved in front of the vehicle to fire with the intent of then moving out of danger.
At worst he skimmed across the rounded corner of the bonnet as a result of his own actions.
It's very clear from the video that she had no intention of running him over, he shoots after the car is past him.
The few that I've seen so far appear authenic, cover a few angles, and show three ICE agents about the car
* one that approached from the side and attempted to open the door causing the woman to back up, turn and leave,
* another that approached from the front and drew to fire when it became clear the car was going to leave,
* a third that stood back a little doing very little.
(I don't necessarily mean the Minneapolis case - for example, consider the Shaver shooting)
It is certainly not. Nor is shooting someone in the face. Only one of those things actually happened.
It's possible to believe this woman was an asshole and an agitator and that her death was needless and intentional.
Hey, any thoughts on this short NYT video analysis?
No, you didn't. And the fact that you're consistently lying about the sequence of events in said video does not help your case. Again, what do you get from lying about this?
A man approaches her car and tries to pull the door open. She attempts to drive away. It seems clear to me that the woman is trying to escape. Watch the clip yourself. Note the direction the front wheels are pointing, both before and after the agent attempts to pull open the door.
It was.
> In order to hit the driver, he would have been standing at the front of the car off-center.
He was.
Vehicle was moving forward, in a right hand turn, moving past the officer, but not towards/at the officer. The car did make it past the officer, without harm to the officer.
That's not self-defense, that's murder.
And ICE does not have the authority to detain a citizen for a traffic violation, any more than I do.
"Abolish ICE" sounds like you think once you get a few miles past the border, no one should be able to apprehend you. Sounds like you just want open borders.
Even if you think they should use different methods, or be more careful, it's still stupid to say "abolish ICE" or "we should dox and harass all ICE officers and interfere with them." That's just as dumb as saying that because several people die every day from medical malpractice we need to abolish doctors and hospitals.
Borders don't exist if you just let whoever wants to, come and stay forever and do whatever they want. And that's also why legal immigrant citizens moved to the right in recent years. They think it's messed up that they worked hard, paid a ton of money, followed all the rules, meanwhile random people from central America just hopped the fence and made up some story to claim asylum -- interesting that they crossed 4 countries before claiming asylum.
Abolish ICE. I am 100% literal and serious when I say this. The agency should be dissolved.
Yeah, you don't speak for me.
As a legal immigrant whose immigration to the US took several years and cost in the neighborhood of $30,000, I think it's messed up that it costs that amount of money to immigrate here, that pardoned J6 rioters are paid signing bonuses of $50,000 to be "law enforcement" and $5,000 per deportation to run around playing judge, jury, and in this case executioner, answerable to no-one, unbadged, masked and unidentifiable (because "fuck brown people/libs, amirite?"), because they run under a government entity that tells other government entities "fuck you, you can't tell me what to do".
> meanwhile random people from central America just hopped the fence and made up some story to claim asylum -- interesting that they crossed 4 countries before claiming asylum.
Perhaps you should look at whether or not some of those countries have signed treaties on asylum seekers.
If you want to believe we need some form of immigration enforcement then fine, but ICE isn't it. ICE needs to go, yesterday. And every single person who joined said agency investigated, jailed and kept away from polite society. This is non-debatable.
ICE is rotten to the core. It should be abolished and replaced. Create a new organization with new leadership. Ban anyone from a leadership position in ICE from being employed by the new organization. Maybe allow the rank-and-file to apply, but they have to start fresh and are treated like any other applicant at best.
“Abolish ICE” isn’t about immigration enforcement. It’s about bringing to heel a reckless, out of control, proto secret police. “Abolish ICE” is about immigration enforcement as much as shooting a US citizen in the face is.
But i was responding to someone implying that East germany inherited the Stasi from the nazi power structure and personnel, which is categorically false. The US wanted to keep the power/legal structure, hence the sham Nuremberg trials, the myth about how the Wehrmacht and the German police didn't participate in the genocide or in slavery (the STO in france was just that), it was all SS and a lot of other myth deployed at this time period. The soviet on the other hand purged most of the rot, and replaced it with their own.
That's also a proof that rehabilitation is better than punishment overall for a society, even if you base it on small lies.
Currently, no comment anywhere in this discussion mentions abolishing ICE. Was something edited away? This seems like a misdirection. You have picked several inflammatory positions that nobody here is openly advocating.
I am personally concerned with the rule of law and the also extreme polarization of American society.
>ICE should be disbanded and most of its leadership jailed for their crimes.
>The number of unauthorized immigrants in the United States reached an all-time high of 14 million in 2023
https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2025/08/21/u-...
There are millions living in California alone.
ICE is the only Federal immigration enforcement agency.
Abolishing ICE is abolishing borders.
Right after the election, huh? Kinda weird timing.
Fuck ICE, a nuremberg trial for every one of them.
Also, did the country truly survive just fine without it before that? Are you familiar with crime stats? Could you share the data on levels of crime carried by illegal immigrants over the years?
I am against open borders, but I am also against some of ICE's tactics.
ICE is being nice, perhaps too much.
They seem tolerant of those disrupting their operations, which only empowers them to do it more.
It would be better to round these activists up and put them somewhere where they cannot further disrupt their operations.
Even, the suspect is executed summarily on the spot.
Odd, the suspect is made citizen and gets a MAGA hat.
Most voters don't support ICE's gestapo tactics:
"Voters 56 - 39 percent disapprove of the way U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE, is doing its job."
"Republicans (77 - 17 percent) approve of the way ICE is doing its job, while Democrats (89 - 9 percent) and independents (64 - 32 percent) disapprove of the way ICE is doing its job."
https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3926
"New Report: Majority of Americans Disapprove of President Trump’s Immigration Policies"
https://prri.org/press-release/new-report-majority-of-americ...
$Republicans_living_in_an_information_vacuum + $Republican_brownshirts = 77% of Republicans
If you haven't noticed, they've been shooting motorists who move their cars in this fashion for years/decades.
Not saying it's right...
Furthermore, these abduction squads don't need to be rampaging American cities armed and creating these types of immediately-escalated conflicts in the first place. Even if you believe that immigration laws need to be strictly enforced, doing so does not require lawless paramilitary squads! Apparently part of the price of the current enforcement strategy is the killing of American mothers who are at worst blocking traffic. If this administration truly has a popular mandate to strictly enforce these laws, then they have all the time in the world to do so, right? Instead, they have framed this as some immediate emergency needing overwhelming militarized force attacking our entire society. With its price of dead Americans, this is simply impossible to justify.
This was part of a sweeping anti-incumbent sentiment that occurred globally. Kamala did ok with educated white voters, while black, hispanic and asian voters shifted right; do they all just hate brown people? I doubt it.
Even if there was a slight “shift right” in black and Asian voters, it was still kind of marginal.
According to Pew, about 83% of black voters still voted for Kamala, with 15% voting for Trump, and 60% of Asians voted for Kamala.
I can envision that much internalized racism in either of those groups, but even if that weren’t the case, there are lots of different races and they could convince themselves that “the other ones” are the bad ones, and Trump won’t hurt them. I do not think what you are saying dispels anything I said at all.
Polls in aggregate are useful at sussing voter feelings, predicting actions is harder. Also, the shift was not that marginal. Certainly enough to help decide the election.
I don’t think polls are useful at all if the questions involve anything embarrassing. If a pollster asked “why did you vote for Trump” almost no one is going to say “because I don’t like brown people”, especially when it’s trivial to come up with some contrived reasoning about the economy (even when it doesn’t make any sense).
That said, you're objectively wrong, and if you had read the article in discussion you'd see that. The Trump admin has been detaining natural born citizens, and they've even been given permission to racially profile in the process.
This requires about ten seconds of research to find out, so you are being dishonest by posting stuff like this, either directly or intellectually.
Any actual Americans should be looking at the events of today in horror.
Just because you can find a lot of minorities signing up for ICE jobs doesn't really change anything, even if they were all Hispanic. You can always find examples of people going against their own self interest.
There are black white-nationalists [1] out there. There are women who will openly say that women shouldn't be allowed to vote [2].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Lee_Peterson
[2] https://www.newsweek.com/ann-coulter-reconsiders-womens-righ...
Trump's entire first campaign was based around a stupid, expensive, and racist "wall", and he openly mentioned during his debate that he wants to get rid of immigrants because they're eating dogs. Unless these people were living under a rock they saw all this, and at best they were ambivalent to this, but I think more likely supported it.
You could argue that maybe during his first campaign they had plausible deniability, but when all these people voted for him again, they have lost any sense of that. They knew what they were voting for, and they knew that the person that they were voting for was a racist sack of shit.
People should grow up and own their terrible decisions.
I'm not a huge fan of the DNC either but I think that they're being used as a scapegoat for people not to own their terrible decisions to vote for a moronic demagogue.
IME a lot of trump voters are in the "fuck the government" camp and voted for him purely to throw a wrench in the political machine
I agree. What he had to offer was getting rid of brown people. He wasn't secretive about this. This isn't in conflict with what I said.
> IME a lot of trump voters are in the "fuck the government" camp and voted for him purely to throw a wrench in the political machine
So they voted for a guy who bragged about how he was going to use the government to go after his enemies? Yeah I don't buy that.
Maybe Democrats didn't vote [for Harris] because of that decision.
But the idea that they instead voted for Trump, or that people who went out of their way to vote for Trump would have voted for the Democrat candidate if they had just "been better than Harris" is so fucking absurd it's actively insulting that you try to claim this.
> Most Americans, in contrast with the DNC platform, think it's gross to select candidates for a job based on their race.
Most Americans think it is gross to select candidates for a job based on how much money they've given you, how willing they are to look the other way for your crimes, or how pretty you think they look.
> hiring based on their accomplishments and skills
That you can look at the Trump administration and say this with a straight face is demonstrative of how ignorant you are.
That's like shooting your own foot off. He's always been this person. He was this person in the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, etc. it's fucking crazy to me that anyone, ever, ever, votes for him. It's really opened my eyes to the realities of a lot of folks out there.
It’s so strange to me that anyone who knew anything about him even before he announced presidency didn’t find him to be completely insufferable and an objectively terrible businessman.
He has always been incapable of speaking without constantly trying to brag about himself or bitching about how things aren’t his fault, and even before the infamous “grab her by the pussy” tape came out it was already pretty well known that he was a perv.
I do not know how he got any traction. Except, you know, he became even more outwardly racist.
If you want to revise your assessment to include the creation of this problem by having a lax border, I can agree with you somewhat. We should not require border police far away from the borders. But we do require it now, because certain malicious politicians let in a bunch of people illegally.
Despite the fact that I suspect this scheme is in play, we do actually need to get these illegals out. I believe they have let welfare leeches, common criminals, foreign military, and terrorists all through the border to make sure that we would need federal help to get them out. Rejecting federal solutions now is not the answer. The answer is to let them solve the problem and insist that things go back to normal afterward.
If those federal solutions are not intended to solve unauthorized residency but instead to put us in a permanent authoritarian state where we don't have an afterward where we have the power to insist on things?
That's the greater threat than "illegals" at the moment IMHO.
Federal authority is in fact required to evict people who were allowed to enter in bad faith. There's no getting around that. You either let them stay and suffer higher crime, worse job market, and worse government benefits, or you make them leave. Many Democrats have come out and said that they will not comply with federal law. Now there are Republicans at the top so maybe the law can finally be enforced.
This is another theory as to why the massive illegal and fraudulent legal immigration under pretense of asylum was allowed: https://www.conservapedia.com/Cloward_and_Piven_Strategy Another one is the mere fact that in a democracy, there is always an incentive to expand the voter rolls. There is even this motive on a state level, because seats in Congress are apportioned according to census data that includes all people residing in each district/state. It's very easy to understand that importing millions of people and trying by any means to legalize them and defeat immigration enforcement is one way to try to steal a country. It's treasonous and if we allow this threat then we will not have a country few years from now.