I was about to turn 40 and realized that the place we were staying had a rock wall. In a somewhat "mid life crisis" spur of the moment decision, I decided to go buy shoes, a belt and a chalk bag (I did a lot of indoor rock climbing in college).
We get there and the rock wall is a. closed and b. only for kids.
Get back to the US and COVID lockdown starts. As things open up, I go on the town dad's Facebook group and ask if anyone wants to go rock climbing with me. Multiple dads say "hell, yes!" so I start a rock climbing club.
One of the dads that joins the climbing club loves board games, is inspired by my starting the rock climbing club so he starts the town board game club.
I tell people this story to illustrate that:
- if you don't have a club or org for something that you're into, go start one
- you doing the above can trigger other people to start clubs too
Two years later, that guy and I are best friends, and we cold plunge every Saturday together. Just did a new years plunge with our friend group that is growing. My wife commented this morning that I've really 'farmed' my friend group, whereas a few years ago. I was myself very frustrated with having no real friends anymore.
FYI, my son is in a much better place.
Prior to Covid, I'd started a Wednesday "Dad's Night" where we just got together from 9-10 in my backyard to hang out and have a beer. Eventually we'd move to random local pubs and often it would go to 11pm. It grew with consistency as people would invite other folks. Had one of the assistant basketball coaches from Clemson show up one time. Some of the guys who home brewed would bring something.
The key was a time, after the kids are in bed on a night in the middle of the week when people didn't have other plans.
Covid killed it, but we eventually just became a "grab lunch" text group.
I think Country Clubs and golf used to be the "default" outlet for a lot of people, but as those prices have increased there's a gap to fill.
> how, for dad’s in particular, there is a massive need for this
- Yes
- And also for single men at 45, because everyone’s busy and they feel like a failure for not having a family (meanwhile having a family is such an incredible performance)
- Teens. There is a massive loneliness epidemic among teens. At least we 40-year-olds have had friends before. But the iphonocene (the era of smart phones) has created a generation of people whose friends were always, constantly, busy with phones.
We play a game (whichyr.com) were we guess the year of random pictures. The first criteria is whether people are bent while walking. Not bent: pre-2013. Bent on the phone: Post-2013. It’s not the invention of the phone, it’s the usage of it.
A few years ago I joined my rural neighborhood council, and I’d never been around so many people consistently being generous with their time and energy. It’s really uplifting, and you end up learning a lot from each other in the process too.
My experience is, in the USA, eventually nearly every meetup is ruined by politics. Eventually someone says something unintentionally trigging someone else and then off it goes.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38158616
The phenomenon began in Australia but it has spread to other countries.
Freemasonry began as a workers' guild, but the accreted "goals and rituals" take a group far beyond the simplicity of a men's shed.
The simplicity of any club rapidly becomes complex when monotheism or henotheism (any theism) is injected:
From Wikipedia:
* Anglo-American style Freemasonry, which insists that a "volume of sacred law" should be open in a working lodge, that every member should profess belief in a supreme being, that only men should be admitted, and discussion of religion or politics does not take place within the lodge.
* Continental Freemasonry or Liberal style Freemasonry which has continued to evolve beyond these restrictions, particularly regarding religious belief and political discussion.
* Women Freemasonry or Co-Freemasonry, which includes organisations that either admit women exclusively or accept both men and women."
When we study this we notice very small actual bias at an individual level on socialization preference. The differences are modest and more like slight preferences. There is more overlap than not at a local individual level. What gets missed is that even though the differences are relatively small, the network effect greatly amplifies these small variances resulting in non-linear outcomes. Even small biases at an individual level essentially produce significant effect in socialization behavior.
Frankly, I don't know why more women doesn't center their social life around activities.
It's an excellent idea. Seriously, what's not to like?
Not that its impossible, but the majority* of men get together to watch, play, or talk about sports the majority of the time... whereas I'm perfectly fine just hanging out where hanging out is the activity!
I eventually just stopped trying to invite most of my guy friends out for 1-1 meals, etc.
* hyperbole
That describes you and your wife, and that's great to know yourselves. Why do you feel the need to generalize it to everyone else?
People don't need to justify needs by pointing to some greater power that compels them. People have needs; what's most important is understanding them and their loved one loving and supporting them. That one is yours.
Each person has needs; I have no data that it has to do with gender or sex, and why would it matter? The needs aren't predictable based on gender/sex (though socialization is, to some extent). It doesn't change what I do or how I think of it.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S109051382...
https://psychcentral.com/health/didactic-memory?utm_source=c...
>> I have no data that it has to do with gender or sex, and why would it matter? The needs aren't predictable based on gender/sex
not sure what you're trying to say here, but you seem to have taken a very mild, very general statement incredbly personal.
There is more overlap than not. So, how do we reconcile that with how things end up: network effect. Small biases in socialization norms lead to significant non-linear outcomes due to amplification of these biases leading to norms that exaggerate these biases and end up creating norms that are quite distorted from the average. Leads to some significant consequences for how different genders end up socialization.
Also, it assumes that there's a correlation between these behaviors and that definition. For example, it could be more common in people who are non-binary.
Especially if, say, that man and woman always do things together, but one of them is starting to feel like they need a little bit of something else.
I'm not discussing things on the basis of what someone else things all people of my gender/sex do - that's irrelevant. Do you redefine your own needs based on what you read someone else thinks half the population does?
For example, studies have shown that men who decide to isolate themselves to be "family men" die earlier at age 58.
It might not need to be a pub, but having a club house to do pretty much anything is enormously beneficial to the human brain to have positive social interaction.
We get to decide our own social interaction.
The world is not responsible to not triggering us.
> men who decide to isolate themselves to be "family men" die earlier at age 58.
That seems a extremely young. Is that a typo?
Yes, but isn't it a benefit to society as a whole though? All the prime working years are gone by then and there is no need to pay pension to those men or for expensive medical treatments. And younger generations can be happy for there being one less cishet white male boomer in the world.
I mean, it sure sucks for the individual not being able to enjoy their retirement, but for the society it seems that it will be a benefit.
You don’t even to find a group or friends before you go. Just go to the bouldering area and hang out during a popular time.
Most gyms have partner finder programs and designated social nights.
Every gym I’ve been a member of has also had a bring a friend program where you get to bring one new person for free periodically.
Online groups are also a good way to meet new friends. This is HN so a lot of people will turn their nose up at Facebook but it’s full of groups of people who go out and do things.
Then organically these tend to turn into trips together or simple hangouts for someone's birthday or a holiday.
This is how I met most of my local friends; I went out and started a D&D game.
D&D is slightly tricky, because most people want to play a character, instead of be the DM - so, you either need to find a DM, or be the DM. I'm lucky - I love DMing.
Another problem is maybe similar to what OP was facing; I see many people joining our local Discord, looking for a game, but none of them or the people welcoming them seem to take the actual next step of picking a time and a place to meet and start discussing where and when to actually play.
Also watch Ghost in the Shell which is vaguely set in Hong Kong then feel the vibe when you're there.
Many people also just put you on a text messaging list when you exchange numbers. They only tell you the number to their list, but they are capable of responding individually from it
When they go somewhere, they tell the list, if you come you come, if you don't, nobody's missing you. No obligation, reply STOP to end. Otherwise you can bond at the event and meet everyone else too
It's really easy to be in the mindset that someone else should have already set up the rock climbing club and that if it doesn't exist it just can't.
Turns out that someone can be you! (and this is the thing people miss out on, you can actively make your world more like the way you want it to be by being that leader yourself and doing so is often way easier than you think)
I’ve been on both sides of this, so I’m going to put this out into the universe:
Your friends with kids still want to see you.
They have a lot to deal with suddenly. They’re exhausted.
But they miss hanging out with you, and will leap at the opportunity to hang out if you take the initiative and make some kid-friendly accommodations.
They may decline more often than before, because the kid is sick or sleeping or not sleeping so the adults just need to lay low. But don’t take that “no” as a “stop asking”.
Solitude in your 30s (particularly as a DINK or SINK household) is dangerously addictive.
No need to leave the house… but it does lead one to feel disconnected more broadly over a prolonged period.
They’ll have to pry WFH out of my cold, dead hands; but I must say, the times I do travel to the office and spend a day chatting with people are incredibly energising (though also very unproductive!)
Other people (at least in this country) are generally emotionally messy, unwilling to tolerate people with radically different views/values, and either intellectually lacking or overly predictable in their interests. The few times I find a candidate who isn’t like this, they usually have some kind of personality disorder that makes them too unstable for long-term friendship. When I was younger I often looked past this, but there’s only so many times you are willing to let a human wrecking ball into your life.
A good book is almost always better. The life of a deep reader and casual hobbyist is rich and fulfilling if your romantic needs are satisfied at home. I do not miss my former social life at all.
Just leaving this out there for any other wayward souls who may be annoyed by the conversation.
By not socializing, you are avoiding (to quote the linked article) a "fundamental human need." This is not something you can simply live without, just like you cannot live a good live without exercise.
The view you are espousing is fundamentally unhealthy.
Your exemple is in fact good because a hella lot of people find exercice to be exactly a "dull chore". Same as eating healthy actually.
So, mentioning that socializing can be, for some people, a chore doesn't go against the fact that it is something essential.
You can even be conscious about it and still don't like it : I hate exercising but i still do it because, well, it's needed.
I organized a large (600+-person at its peak) Meetup in Park Slope, Brooklyn, NY during Meetup's hayday (2010-ish).
Meeting heaps of different people from all walks of life was interesting at first. But like a previous poster stated, connections like these are fleeting and take a lot of work to maintain (especially if you're a man, which I am; see the end of this post for more on that).
Consequently, the process of meeting people eventually became very same-y after a short while, and knowing that these conversations usually won't amount to anything other than nice, fleeting moments got old.
There was also the drama of managing "interesting" personalities in a free Meetup group. I passed the baton in 2012 or so, but that's another post for another day.
I'll conclude this post with some unsolicited advice: try to learn what people do for work without asking them directly.
EVERYONE expects this question, and it can be a conversation killer if your occupations don't intersect (less likely) or if the person you're conversing with hates their job (more likely). Everyone ALSO loves talking about themselves. Finding out how someone spends the largest part of their day without asking point-blank adds interesting twists and turns that can really liven up a conversation. It also makes you a better listener and better at asking questions.
I lied; I have more unsolicited advice. The easiest way to give a shit about what someone does for work is to ask lots of questions! Unless they hate their job, in which case, you'll want to ask questions that get them talking about what they do enjoy!
Typing that last paragraph reminded me of another reason why I got burned out on socializing with people. I'm a man. Most men only like sports and video games; two things I couldn't care less about. Socializing with other men as a man who dislikes these things is extremely difficult, especially in the US South, where I live. I blame the suburban lifestyle, but that, too, is another post for another day.
I see this a lot and it's interesting because I don't like to talk about myself much. Doubly so about work. I wonder how many of us there are.
Though I do think, if you extend the metaphor, that saying that socializing is a dull chore is a bit like saying exercising is a dull chore.
[1] https://www.ssmhealth.com/newsroom/blogs/ssm-health-matters/...
I understand this deeply. On the other hand, I do believe that community is essential for a good life (for 99%+ of people). It's a struggle for me, as I want community, but I've had many wrecking balls and anchors (and been them), and so I tend to be defensive.
> Other people [...] are generally emotionally messy, unwilling to tolerate people with radically different views/values, and either intellectually lacking or overly predictable in their interests.
I also feel this. But I suspect a large part of this is that defensiveness, people are meant to live in harmony with those (fairly) different from them. But especially with regard to differing values, sometimes it feels like no one around you shares the same framework. I think that's one reason people move to new places.
No hate intended towards those who feel the need to be social. If you feel like you’re missing out, the article has some good advice. But there’s nothing wrong with those of us who prefer a quiet morning walk to an average conversation.
I don't know what you're talking about. People loooove talking about how hell is other people or how they'd rather be curled up on the couch, how relieved they are when others cancel plans at the last minute.
There's literally an entire website dedicated to people with this point of view, it's called Reddit.
Does every person need to be unpredicatable and intellectually stimulating in order to spend time with them? If a friend who lives in Rotorua is interested in mountain biking (how predictable, how shallow) does that make spending time on a bike in the forest with them somehow lesser?
I do agree with your point too: perhaps emotional stimulation is also important? That can be a lot less sharp, less well-defined, but just as enriching.
It sounds like GP has very high standards for their friends, which is not the point IMO. I think we should have friends to broaden our horizons and expose us to new things. Intelligence is only one part of that.
None of this has required much in the way of socializing, in fact excessive socializing would actively interfere with these activities.
I reject your implication that a highly social life is better than a rich, mostly solitary life. It’s different, but not better.
I don’t travel alone, I travel with my partner who is a great companion.
IRL conversation is an art, and few people are even halfway decent at it. Maybe that’s the true source of my complaint. To make an IRL conversation entertaining you need expressiveness, creativity, as well as a good variety of topics and tolerance for differences of opinion. Not many people can check all these boxes.
Even many so-called “freethinkers” merely regurgitate common talking points and claim that this is somehow interesting, and they get more aggressive than “normies” if you try to branch out! I used to be able to engage in open ended conversations with people where you explore topics from all angles and adopt abhorrent positions as a way to understand the truth. Nobody seems to be comfortable with that anymore. Perhaps in the past everyone was just so drunk that they didn’t care about their inhibitions; I don’t tend to drink socially anymore and alcohol is famously a social lubricant.
Social life is a bit like SEO. To get the full benefits, you needed to start on it years ago. Trying to do it just-in-time is generally a very frustrating experience. I think there's wisdom in doing casual cultivation when you don't feel you need it. It's like keeping your skills/résumé up-to-date just in case.
If the author was able to pull 'a bunch of people' to birthday drinks with nothing but an invitation, this story is more about underestimating his social capital rather than creating new capital.
Yes, there are also many (stuck-up and immature, IMO) people who won't even consider attending an event without a look at the guest/RSVP list to see who else will be there. But I don't think that's the majority. If you set up an outing, invite 50 people, but only 10 show up, that's still a pretty great success, I think.
I'm exploring in-office jobs for 2026.
One big problem with having mostly or only online friends is that you spend all day at work in front of a computer, then if you want to spend time with your online friends you spend more time in front of a computer. It can turn into all day every day screen time.
littlecranky, put your reply back please; it was a good one.
They can mostly only ever wish you well.
For me, the significant thing about having local community is the ability to throw stuff together last minute. Not every gathering has to have a spreadsheet of guests and canva invites and endless emails booking a band, a keg, whatever else.
A lot can and should just be "hey dudes, anything doing anything? Want to come over for a game/movie/whatever?" Those kinds of low-stakes hangouts are the real backbone of community, and they're hard to do if you don't have a friend group that's physically close by.
It is such a massive boost to quality of life to just be able on a whim to send a text like “i am tryna grab some food+drink in 15min, you down?” and actually make it happen more than half the time (and being able to receive similar texts from the friend too). Lots of spontaneous interactions and (barely-any-)planning for just normal low-pressure outings was absolutely my favorite part of that time period.
On a sidenote, I absolutely despise the “guest spreadsheet canva invites for an event scheduled a month in advance and endless emails booking a band” way of regularly doing social stuff. It is totally chill and reasonable to do so for special occasions and bigger events, but having it as the primary way of socializing makes me want to drill a hole in my skull.
I miss the arco. I miss the arco a lot.
So for me online communities can be a great thing, but they can't replace IRL communities, because the interactions make you feel different. I suspect that the social needs that evolution has imprinted on us can't just be fulfilled by online interactions, they require more senses than just hearing and seeing.
Amongst other reflections I have:
1) a pay-check does give you a sense of validation. This took some getting through
2) it’s been challenging working out what I will actually end up doing with myself. There were periods where I put more pressure on myself to do so. I still don’t know what will do.
3) the process of doing things because they are fun takes some getting used to when one’s entire life was built around doing something useful to others
4) when one lives off of savings it’s almost easier to spend as it feels like you didn’t suffer for it. Getting depressed at work makes it easier to spend more money outside of work
5) the “number” people need to retire (or not work for extended periods) is probably less than people realise
6) not working in finance (amongst all the moral corruption everywhere) has generally made me happier in part because I can live in a way which is more in-keeping with my values over having constantly breach them for work reasons
7) owning my calendar is a big freedom. I don’t have to ask a boss if I can do something all the time. No need to explain yourself.
8) not constantly having to submit to a boss is huge. One can really grow this way, as constant repression to other people’s whims is soul crushing and shows just how close employment is to slavery (especially in finance with golden handcuffs)
Great write-up and encouragement on the author's part.
Back in grad school, I was out making new friends. I was playing tennis 4-5 times a week. I'd invite players for post-game coffees (in the morning) and dinner (evenings) at every game. Consistency mattered. I'd ask every time. Slowly we had our regulars. Our coffee times became an institution in and of themselves.
People are busy, yes. But, people also want to be in demand. People also don't want to be rejected. And, people also don't want to be left out.
Asking around, I was exposing myself to rejection. Some folks appreciated their time being demanded. More still joined because they didn't want to be left out.
It’s draining for me to reach out to try and convince people, not sure if the social anxiety or the lack of executive functioning.
Any tips for someone that understands and wants community but struggles with the building process?
If you're unattractive, you'll fail no matter what you try or how you try it.
There's a reason why success stories in this area never talk about the author being required to or benefiting from evolving their tactics.
Make a list of public places that you like (bars, coffee shops, game shops, etc.) and go to them at the same time on the same day every week. You'll shortly start seeing the same people regularly, even if it's just the staff.
Then you can greet those people, introduce yourself, and talk with them. By asking questions about their day, their plans, and sharing the same about yourself, you'll open the door to expanding your social life outside of those locations, hours, and people.
Community doesn't need to be a series of planned events and invitations. It can be implicit and organic just by virtue of regularly sharing space.
Personal anecdote:
I do this with pinball. Sure, it's often in bars, but it's a great way to be at a bar without having to drink. Pinball players are happy to talk about pinball (or anything really), it provides an instant topic of conversation, and it's easy to invite another player to a game because it's such a short commitment. And if no one's around that you want to talk to, or you don't feel like focusing on socializing, you can just play the game while still maintaining your regular schedule.
If you want to try following in my exact footsteps, you can use Pinball Map[1] to find locations near you. Good luck!
1) Do something you enjoy *and* that others in your area enjoy.
2) Look for opportunities to be a first follower: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8amMCVAJQ
3) Build a routine. E.g., this event will happen every 2nd Tuesday of the month.I find it interesting that I've thought about the exact social mechanics of making friends before as well - low stakes in person common context where you meet on a regular basis is key.
It’ll be a slightly different approach to the other though. For me, I want to start playing some tabletop games (war games and/or RPGs) at my Friendly Local Game Shop. I think these types of interactions are important for community.
This gets us out of the house, gives us some time away from each other and kids, and gives us some interaction with some other people (who work for completely different companies) but are kind of like colleagues in terms of gentle office banter, water-cooler chats, etc.
I know loads of them by name, who they work for, what they do and there are occasional bonus interesting chats where some aspect of our two industries/jobs overlap slightly. There's one person who is just starting out doing something similar to a niche job I did 15 years ago, so it's great to speak to him and act as a kind of mentor.
Fully remote work is great, and I could be a happy recluse, but I'm all for more in-person interaction during the working day. Next job I think I'll go back to hybrid with 1-3 days in an office if possible.
It kills me. They are so addicted to their comforts, to their security, to their home. And I get why, they have had a tremendously bad couple of years… but I just see the repeated behaviors reinforcing the issue. I get told over and over “we just need a few months where nothing bad happens” but like… dude. That’s not coming. The bad shit always happens, it’s going to continue until you die. The only way to make that worse is to self isolate and make yourself miserable constantly between those bad things.
If anyone has advice, I would super appreciate it. I’m so worried for them.
I wanted to focus on my health, both mental and physical, this meant going to the gym every morning and making time to read and getting rid of social media.
I also wanted to reduce my consumption of alcohol which typically was fueled by social events and always seemed to throw a wrench in taking care of my health (hard to get to the gym in the morning when you were drinking the night before, and for me it was even after just 1 drink).
What I realized was that many of the people I was spending time with, they oriented their communal time around drinking and for me that's pretty detrimental to my goals. After pulling back from social activity, I've felt so much healthier, happier and optimistic about life.
I get the same exact phone calls as you're describing, and I generally weigh the events I'm being invited to with what the focus of the event is - if the goal of the event is to just get together at a bar, I don't go. I think many of my friends feel that I've lost my way, but it's difficult because I sort of see them in the same light.
What I do hope to do eventually is to cultivate some new friendships, because I am missing that social aspect of my life, but for now I've sort of got a good thing going and I'm not too concerned about rushing it into being.
Of course, I know that from your perspective, it can be frustrating and painful, and that nobody can be expected to remain infinitely patient. I don't blame people for eventually throwing in the towel...
Some things that I've picked up last year that are a good starting point:
- timeleft dinners. I get dinner with 5 strangers every few weeks. Tons of fun and you meet a lot of interesting people.
- swing dancing: I went on a date to a social dance and immediately became addicted. It has taken a while to learn the basics, and some of the unwritten rules of the dance floor, but now this is an activity I can take with me to many of my city's social dances and meet all sorts of people. It has greatly improved my social skills and confidence.
I think the biggest different this year will be the amount of effort I put into organizing social events: I've found that everyone seems to be waiting for an invite, but no one wants to do the inviting! OP hinted at this in his article.
A "screwing club for men" was the scene at the Salsa dancing which I joined (with female friends). I really loved the salsa and really enjoyed everything with the rest of the learners, and with my friends. Unfortunately it took me too long to realize that the "top" men were more interested in fucking beginner women than in real socializing. Too predator vibe for me so we quit - I probably should have looked for a better group. That group was an outlier - later I've seen dancing groups with fantastic dynamics.
Dancing is amazing, and I'd recommend anyone to try it, but try to join a social group.
It looks like it would be great to travel with: I met a truly wonderful bunch of people at a LGBT friendly Tango (my AirBnB hosts took me in Argentina).
This won't be an option for everyone. I have to travel for an hour each way to get to mine, but it's worth it. If I had more energy I would start one in the city where I live.
But what the author did (organizing drinks) reminds me a lot of a great podcast I heard about putting together cocktail parties, and the social benefits: https://www.artofmanliness.com/people/social-skills/2-hour-c...
It's probably not for everyone, as it seems like a lot of work, and it might be too regimented for many, but I've wanted to do it for a while. Maybe this is the year.
Like the author, I highly recommend _building_ rather than simply joining a community. If you’re joining an already established scene, get involved! Host events, and bring in new members, establish new norms
The main thing people have to get over is passivity. You want to see your friends? Invite a bunch of people to come out. Nowadays it takes very little time to book a restaurant.
I do this every few months. I just think of three or four other people I want to have dinner with, arrange a time, and then invite everyone else I come across. Dinner ends up being anywhere from 4 to 12 people, out of maybe 20 invites. As for who to invite, just invite your friends, and your "friend seeds".
Everyone has a few peripheral people they know, whose bio seems to fit the template of your actual friends: live near you, studied with you, worked with you. People who in all likelihood have the same values as you, except you haven't hung out together due to lack of opportunity. We all know that guy: you know his name, you know he does what you do, you don't know anything else. So you bring that seed along and you and your existing friends water the relationship.
A more modern way to not be lonely is to play an MMO. This isn't quite like real friends, but it also isn't quite the same as being lonely. The big benefit of course is that you can do this at home.
These games are all about cooperating, sharing knowledge and experience. It's not really all that different from cooking a meal together, you're just in your PJs as you're slaying a dragon. You can also end up learning a fair bit about your online friends from just hanging around. Life stories, that kind of thing, they are a basic part of friendship.
Over the past decade I’ve built two different communities like this, both of which meet weekly. They’ve become pretty important social outlets for all the regulars.
Unfortunately, they are both at my workplace. Which means I am tied to my employer not just professionally, but socially. This makes the prospect of changing jobs much more painful and disruptive.
I knew someone with the last name ‘Mason’, who would often get asked if he was a Freemason or a decent of one. Eventually he got asked so many times that he decided to join. After that it seemed like he went from not having much of a social life to going out all the time with his Freemason buddies.
Two places I’ve lived have been a short walk to an Elk lodge. If I was a member, I’d imagine that would be a good 3rd place with community. I think VFW would be another one, for veterans, which has also dropped in popularity, but was where my grandfather found his community.
Most of society has relegated fraternal orders participation to their college days. But even in college, most people I knew looked down on fraternities.
I wonder if some of the issue is that most of them require members be religious. With church attendance declining, joining a group that seems to require it is a harder sell. Church itself is also a place where community is built that a lot of people have left behind. I know several people whose entire social network seems to revolve around the church, for better or worse.
Bringing back these groups could really help a lot of people, so everyone isn’t expected do it all on their own or be lucky enough to have a friend who does it for them.
My dad has been very good about keeping up connections throughout his life which looks to be paying off now that he’s retired. But it seems like a significant amount of work that most people aren’t willing to do.
I have an old college roommate who lives less than a mile from me who I have only seen once in the last two years. I think most guys aren’t willing to pick up the phone to set something up, so simply having a place to go, where people are, tends to work out better. My friend who lives nearby is a member at the local country club, which also falls into that bucket of fraternal orders in a way. If I joined that I’d probably see him more, because we’d both have a place to regularly go. I feel weird inviting people over my house to do nothing and just hang out.
To elaborate, in the US, existing groups tend to be narrow and uninteresting to me. In most places I've lived, it's basically a mix of sports/fitness groups, art groups, "tech" (i.e., programmer; traditional engineers like myself won't feel entirely welcome), social dancing, popular fiction reading group, activism, etc. I can't say that any of these genuinely interest me and/or would be a good place to meet people. At a fitness class, for example, many people aren't interested in casual conversation as far as I'm aware. And without genuine interest in the subject, it's hard to engage.
I honestly wish social clubs were a thing, and you would get introduced to people from all walks of life. Perhaps this is the reason the Internet is so polarizing: people don't intermingle much, they live in their small niches and echo chambers, and have to put real effort and go out of their way to engage with someone that has a new perspective. Algorithms entrenching us deeper within the same niches are to blame.
I enjoy socialising (sparingly), but I'm not an extrovert and herding people is not my definition of fun, yet I keep feeling I should be the one to form whatever community I and people like me would enjoy participating in. What a conundrum. It's also much easier to make and advertise a club around a topic than an open one for "interesting" people without sounding like a posh cult for elitists.
I think it's possible to get around the problem, but it would take just the right structure; there should be activities, but enough of a variety to have something for people from all walks of life. But also not too much of a variety so as not to appeal only to those interested in constantly trying new things. Perhaps a set of some baseline, fairly universal activities, with space for individual members to share their own hobbies and interests from time to time in a group setting? I don't know exactly, but it's something I've been considering for a while, and it feels like there must be an answer somewhere in there.
Could you articulate what you perceive to be a problem with all that?
1. The club/etc follows its core conceit closely, and discussions and such naturally don't branch off far
2. Connected to 1, the folks who actively engage in a club are typically very invested in the subject; when my interest is more casual, it can be difficult to connect with those more passionate
And 3., most critically, the things I am passionate about are too niche to sustain dedicated clubs anywhere but the most dense of population centers, which for a variety of reasons I have no interest in relocating to.
I would appreciate a group where a variety of unique interests is encouraged. I enjoy interacting with people who are passionate in their own ways, even when they don't necessarily line up with my own passions; I realize there are clubs and such out there which likely fit my preferences, but I have yet to find one reasonably nearby.
There was one group I used to attend where I was definitely not as interested in the topic as others. I recall someone at the meetup said to me something along the lines of "If you don't agree with X then why are you here?" Well, I attended because I found a lot of interesting people there, and I know I wasn't the only one. Some organizers made the meetups unstructured conversation, which was great for me. Honestly, I'd just like to meet other people interested in a particular topic. Other organizers preferred meetups with more specific assigned discussion topics. I rarely cared much about the assigned topics and they made the unstructured conversation I wanted to have much more difficult or even impossible (particularly for the online meetups). I don't attend those meetups any longer in part because of the assigned topics.
Anyhow, the specific group I was referring to was LessWrong meetups in 3 different cities over a period of about a decade. As I said, I'm not quite aligned with their philosophy, but I did find a bunch of interesting people at those meetups.
My point being that a lot of clubs or groups, especially in fitness, don’t have a rule against talking about other stuff. In fact, most are incredibly conducive to it.
Um, have you actually tried? I have a "rock climbing" friends group, and it's rare that we talk rock climbing outside an actual climbing outing. Some of them are at the climbing gym 2-3x a week, some of them 1x a week, some join only once every 1-2 months. But what we do a lot is hang out just for dinner, for some hike on the weekend, going to a concert, whatnot. Climbing was really just the initial excuse to meet, by now it's only a detail we all more or less do now and then.
Maybe you are overthinking this.
They are. Elks, Knights of Columbus, etc. Not as popular with the younger crowd, but nothing is stopping you from joining or starting your own.
As for the point around feeling like you have to talk about rock climbing all day: you don't. Rock climbing is just the entry point, which allows for a shared conversation topic before you branch into other things.
That works for some people. I like the activity-based groups. Besides the sports groups, a community garden is also good.
Are you talking about road cycling or mountain biking? My experience is definitely with the former. I think it helps that in group rides you automatically end up riding next to someone new and chatting along. Easily breaks the ice.
I'm thinking road cycling. When I was in grad school, a decade ago, I briefly participated in a student road cycling group. It was very performance oriented as I recall. I was definitely slower than them and my heavy steel commuter bike contrasted strongly with their lighter racing bikes. I talked to some of them, but not during the rides. I was older than the vast majority of them as I recall and in retrospect that might have prevented me from making friends there.
As for specific topics, there are many I could pick. My problem isn't a lack of interest in general, just a lack of overlap between my interests and what's available. One I think might have a decent chance of success would be a group based around information searching, both online and in the real world. Despite being an engineer, I've often found a lot of common ground with librarians. I love talking about the subject and could learn a lot about it. It's not going to become irrelevant any time soon either, even with LLMs, due to information siloing.
I feel sorry for the young 'uns that have grown up with the internet, that have been able to isolate themselves and their opinions from the real world simply by choosing to not interact physically, and block those whose opinions differ.
I can understand being in the wrong contest once or twice in your life, but I’ve lived in five different cities. I’ve gone to college three times. I play multiple instruments and have played in bands and orchestras. And yet here I am: completely alone. I have no one to text for a little chat, no one to grab a beer with me on a Saturday night, no one to plan a coffee with, no one to reassure me when I’m struggling. I’m moving through life entirely on my own, rawdogging it, doing everything alone.
At this point, I’ve given up on relationships, on friendship, on love. The few people I’ve ever called friends eventually disappeared. It feels less painful to stop hoping altogether than to keep sinking my already low hope that it is actually all a misunderstanding and that someday I’ll finally find a circle of people who choose me back.
I actually grow up in a small town, like 4000 people in total, in Italy. It is even worse: if you're just a little bit strange and you don't form some kind of friendship while in grade school, the rest of your social life is basically determined to be over.
Stack stones, hang lights, collect interesting things. Or join a project where people are doing this, like Sandland: https://www.southeastiowaunion.com/life/ottumwa-native-creat...
Joining may be easier and nobody turns down a volunteer. You may have to start something new if nothing is nearby.
But beware the monkey’s paw: once the people come, you will not be able to get rid of them easily.
Turns out partying is not something that really builds bonds.
All that is to say, please don’t feel pity for us haha. I asume the author, like me, genuinely enjoys this lifestyle.
Hundreds of people came to the funeral, even though it was short notice (24 hours) and in the middle of holiday season. They all dropped whatever they were doing, hopped in their cars or on a plane and came. Friends from his childhood. Friends from his middle/high school years. Friends from his university years, and med school years. People he had worked with and done community service with over the decades. His former students from the decades he taught at the local university. Employees at the hospital he worked at. Family friends. Friends of family. People who knew him by only name and yet still wanted to pay their respects.
I'm Turkish, and community has always played a big role in our culture. But the past few days made me realize that, ever since immigrating to the USA 20+ years ago, community had been supplanted by individualism. Like the author, I work from home. I do have a bit of a social life, and there's a couple of meetups I organize, but the size of my community is nothing compared to my parents. It makes me sad.
Reading this article gave me some hope. It reminded me that ultimately it's a matter of putting in the work, which I am determined to do. Not because I want to maximize the number of people who come to my eventual funeral or anything like that, but because I do want to live a richer life and the best way to do that is to share it with others.
Sorry if the above was all over the place. Things are still raw.
It’s work, it doesn’t come naturally - but you get the privilege of curating who’s there.
You know you can do both right?
What do you think the implications are regarding this post?
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-context_and_low-context_c...
Outside of linguistucs, I've seen it applied as a concept of social group inclusion and mobility. Eg. America is a low context society — if you mess up you can move across town. Other cultures that are high context, your family will be shunned for generations with no hope of success.
This is in another article of his about not having kids. But I think just focusing on enjoyment in life is a poor human experience. Life has much more to offer that is equally interesting. Enjoyment isn't the only game in town. And the other things that life has to offer, can be fucking painful. But I'd still say it's worth it to experience.
I appreciate it that life is bitter sweet. I wouldn't exactly say that I like it, but I appreciate it (and it goes up to a point, when we're talking about really rough tragedies, yea none of that please).
>> I think I’m particularly suspicious of community, because as a writer and pedantic arsehole on the internet, I value truth-seeking behaviour. I want people to think and say things that are true, not just things that they have to believe for the sake of keeping their community happy.
Unfortunately, this is what happens with every group of people.
Our individual realities are highly subjective. A group of people who are part of a community construct a shared reality that they can all accept. If you don’t contribute to the shared reality, you are treated as someone who is problematic.
As humans we are social creatures. In our evolution, we develop cognitive systems that help us thrive in social structures. One system is called the social protection system. This system gets activated when we sense tension in relationships and sends a signal of fear to the subject that they risk being separated from a social group. This fear motivates people to maintain connection. So some people are intrinsically motivated by fear to maintain their status, sometimes unconsciously.
Our self esteem comes from two things, relationships and mastery. Healthy self esteem comes from connection to people who accept you for who you are, where you feel visible and accepted with your good and bad traits.
If you have a few people in your life with this type of connection, you will have a healthy social foundation and rely less on belonging to a group.
Groups are valuable in that the human experience is complicated. The best source of information comes directly from other humans and their experiences overcoming complexity.
However, I do agree with the author where certain groups can be problematic, particularly engaging in things like tribalism.
Establishing good self esteem by keeping a few people close to you who see you and accept you as a flawed human is key. The other part is to immerse yourself in activities where you develop mastery and maintain a connection to the activities that are intrinsically motivating and satisfying without distraction from external signals.
I learned this by studying the science of self actualization, from the research done by Scott Barry Kaufman and his book Transcend. He’s a humanistic psychologist who was inspired by Abraham Maslow, one of the founders of humanistic psychology.
The biggest difference in how the author approached and how I did: he did it monthly; I did it weekly. I found that made a HUGE difference in building community. If it's once a month, and people come on average 50% of the time, then you'll see these people 6 times a year. That's nice, but one of my goals was to build real, deep relationships with more people, and having a party where I speak a few minutes to each person (if you're the host, it's hard to get more than 30 minutes with one person) 6 times a year - you can't really build a real relationship. Also, once a month puts pressure on people psychologically to attend, but I wanted it low-key, "Come if you want, if not next week, or the week after - or never! It's all cool and you go live your life and you be you!" was part of the vibe I was going for, and it's easier to get that vibe when it's all the time, but the less frequent it is, the more subconscious pressure there is, and I wanted a low-key event (for example, imagine a wedding - that's very irregular, hopefully once in your life - so there's massive pressure to attend, and I wanted the precise inverse).
But my doing it weekly, made it a bit more like church/synagogue, in the best communal sense of the word: a place to go at the same time, same place every week, time to build real relationships, you always knew you'd have a place to go, etc. And because many of the people were the same week on week, it naturally led to longer, deeper conversations, both individual and group conversations.
I was also strict on a few rules. There were a few topics that were banned from being discussed ("politics, business, and sports" basically - and everyone knew going in those were banned) so that forced people to avoid those generic and tiresome topics that (politics in particular) just make unhappy. Also, I had a very strict "no cell phone" rule and I enforced putting cell phones into a box near the entrance.
It also became a HUGE success in my city. Mentioned in the media and featured in videos. Because it became known as the nexus of interesting conversations in a spot with cool energy. Many dotcom/tech superstars as well as ambassadors and other interesting and curious figures, when they were in my city for a few days for business, they'd hear that my apt was the place to be that night and they'd contact me to invite themselves.
It revolutionized my life and my social network. I'd strongly recommend everyone who is suffering from these same sorts of social challenges create their own sort of variation of this concept.
This lasted almost a decade, almost every Wednesday night from 2007 to 2016. Then... adult life happened: family, moving internationally, and... alas. I have a personal challenge these days that I should invest energy in figuring out: the best way to reboot this for me, but in the world I life in now, not only post-covid, but with kids and family life. Sometimes I think about rebooting it but in a public venue on my "date night", sometimes I think about doing a "Zoom" version of this where it's beers on Zoom, etc etc there are many possible ways to approach this challenge - but I haven't yet been inspired with the right formula for me.
There's a time and place for everything under the sun and this was a beautiful and life-changing era of my life.
If anyone is interested in creating their own version of this (particularly the OP), just drop me a line and I'm more than happy to Zoom any time with you and give you some tips. My email is morgan@westegg.com (I still love meeting people even if through email and Zoom!), and my personal website is westegg.com and I have an ancient and embarrassingly bad web page 2008 tumblr-style page about these events at: wnip.org - If the above sounded interesting, I'm always up for a brainstorm so ping me!
Between the consistent curation and Morgan’s "Kevin Bacon-style" network, I met a huge spectrum of people—both locals and world travelers.[1])
Side note: if you’re in a relationship, these nights are even better. You end up with so many fresh ideas to share with your partner from conversations they weren't part of.
Thanks for hosting, Morgan! And a special thanks to Celia for being so gracious about those late-night "extra innings"
Invitees: Interesting Guys, Hot Girls.
Exceptions Tolerated: Hot Guys, Interesting Girls.
The organizer sounds like an unpleasant person.
Yeah, I wrote that 20 years ago, and I tried to be funny and more offensive than. I'm sorry, I was young and more uncouth; today I'd never even consider thinking-or-talking like that.
That line was meant as a joke. Some of the most frequent, prominent attendees were actually among the top female intellectuals in our city. In that sense, the joke cut both ways: the guys were mostly nerdy software developers, the girls were nerdy intellectuals, and they were generally much smarter. So the line on the webpage, which was just a silly overnight Tumblr thing I wrote 20 years ago, was really self-mockery, mocking the guys for being less intellectual than the girls. Everyone was extremely nerdy and not cool/hot by traditional standards (hence the "hot girls, intellectual guys" joke), and the idea that we'd only "tolerate" "intellectual girls" was absurd since it was mostly intellectual girls anyway, we guys were outnumbered, hahaha. The joke is bad, and yeah, sorry, my humor doesn't always land, especially decades later. (And I did warn with the web link that the page was "embarrassingly bad" - I meant not just the design but the content as well.)
Also, as brabel points out, times have changed. Back then, those sorts of jokes were common and considered funny and not offensive. I'd note that that was written 20 years ago, which is about 33% towards 1966 - the Mad Men era (20/60=0.333) - a different world in which people spoke very differently than they do now. It wasn't an overnight one day to the next transition to our new way of thinking and talking. Even remember that was the same era, around 2007, when our own beloved founder of our HN forum paulg was cancelled for making some comment that was widely considered anti-women. "The past is a different world" as they say.
I even briefly considered updating that wording (having not touched it in 20 years) worrying someone would respond like this; but I decided to leave it, as a testament to history and how we spoke then. I try not to rewrite the past with modern standards, and I own what I wrote.
Continuing my apology for my offensive joke in 2007, as I've grown and gone through my own journey of life growing up, I feel bad for offensive things I've said-and-done over the almost half-century of my lifetime. My words have hurt people. I've been going through my past and asking for forgiveness from those who I have hurt, while also forgiving those who have hurt me. My latest book is about my attempts to reflect on the meaning of forgiveness, on my asking for forgiveness, and my forgiving others. In case you're interested, it is here: https://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Forgiveness-S-Morgan-Frie...
Finally, andrewl, I'm interpreting your message as an interest in learning more about my journey and transformation, and if you'd like to talk about personal growth, forgiveness, or what the world was like in 2007 or the 90s or 80s, it would be an honor to meet you via zoom and talk to you about life, with an open mind and open heart. This threat is about making new friends, after all, and it would be an honor to meet me, I know your username from your many great comments on HN! You can always email me at morgan@westegg.com or schedule a zoom: https://westegg.com/metaphysical-beer-29-min/
Your words were beautiful and I appreciate them. See my long response I just wrote, a sister comment to yours now, explaining my thinking when I wrote that joke. Your analysis is consistent with mine: the times were different than, and I made a terrible joke, that didn't stand the test of time. And due to my offensive and sometimes hurtful jokes of the past and many other life experiences, I've been going through a period of transformation, thinking as hard as I can about forgiveness while forgiving others and asking for forgiveness.
As I said to andrewl as well (and to anyone in this thread!), this thread is at its core really about making new friends as adults (weekly/monthly events being one way to do so), and I'd love to meet you and talk about this issue, how times have changed in 20 years, and anything. You can reach me at morgan@westegg.com or you can schedule a zoom here: https://westegg.com/metaphysical-beer-29-min/
WhatsApp groups.
If you move somewhere, and find the same circles why are you surprised that you’re still not happy?
> also, no women
Social groups aren’t just a place for unhappy people to meet a partner. I’d look inwards first.
It sounds like his professional life or personal interests naturally being him in contact with a social circle that isn’t fulfilling socially. Doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with him.
I say, look outward! Intentionally get involved with other social circles.
I had a colleague who was member of a dance club, then he had to move to another district, making it super uncomfortable to continue on a regular base - up until today they are calling him every few weeks if he can attend because lack of men
I live overseas and I’m very lonely. I’ve been told to join a group or club related to my interests so I can meet new people and make friends, but I can’t. It doesn’t feel natural to me to go for friend-hunting. And I’m very tired of meaningless, superficial connections and conversations I’ve had with most of the people from my surroundings. I feel my only friends are the ones I did at school. After that period of my life, people -or even me- start to disappear.
But with my friends from school, we can be without seeing each other for years and it’s always so easy and rewarding to catch up. I wish I’ve spent more time with them before moving :,(
In adulthood, that forcing function doesn't exist so you have to make the effort. So regardless of whether or not it "feels natural" to go "friend-hunting" (it doesn't to me either), if you don't do it, you will be without friends.
It's also worth framing it to yourself differently. Friend hunting sounds awful and fake but organising fun/activities for similarly minded people seems more positive
Given nuclear families etc. in the West, this is kinda hard as an adult. Happens automatically as a child and college student, though. My advice to you is:
1) Get a housemate or several. Better yet, join an already shared house. Forget about your preconceptions about whether you "can" live with other people or not. You aren't special, people lived together for ever.
2) Explicitly decide to work through this "doesn't feel natural to me" thing. OK, fine, it's gonna feel kind of awkward at first. By the 5th friend-hunt it won't.
Once you're past a certain age, social life will not be automatic like it used to when you were younger. You need to agro pursue a social life and maintain relationships and friendships. On the flip side, some of my close friendships at this age are super strong since we've been allies for decades.
> Renowned author Dan Brown got out of his luxurious four-poster bed in his expensive $10 million house and paced the bedroom, using the feet located at the ends of his two legs to propel him forwards. He knew he shouldn’t care what a few jealous critics thought. His new book Inferno was coming out on Tuesday, and the 480-page hardback published by Doubleday with a recommended US retail price of $29.95 was sure to be a hit. Wasn’t it?
https://jimmyakin.com/2024/03/dont-make-fun-of-renowned-dan-...
I feel like including him in a list next to Hitler is a bit... much.
Did people also think of National Treasure as historically accurate?
As for comparing him to Hitler, people gonna be people.
Completely agreed on Rand though.
A rationalist, a mass-market fiction author, a millennial poet, and a dictator walk into a bar...
You have a weird list there
I wish people exchanged this kind of lists.
I have a small curated blacklist and a chrome extension that automatically hides content from them (even on HN, lol).
"Radicalisation pipeline:"
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right_pipeline
Who is "Glinner":
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Linehan
Rationalists and "skeptics" aren't really capable of maintaining a robust club because a) it's hard to find healthy critical thinking in societies that are still addled in a swamp of tribalism from millennia ago, and b) not believing in fables is a weak social pretext. (Hey, let's get together for pints and not believe in $somegroup's ravings.)
The application of rational thought is an educational process. With all the inherent fragility of any educational process.
Tell me you're in an echo chamber without telling me you're in an echo chamber.
We're equating these government actions to lefties being mean on twitter and cancel culture?
0: https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/08/pros...
1: https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/democratic-lawmaker...
2: https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/09/desi...
3: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/federal-judge-rules-trum...
4: https://www.cnbc.com/2025/09/19/trump-threatening-broadcast-...
- orange man makes dumb obviously unconstitutional proclamation about flag burning
- most likely nobody does anything about it, but if someone does there is a law suit
- the courts are like 'lol no'
- back to status quo ante
- The entire MAGA zeitgeist takes the president's word as gospel and shifts into overdrive in an attempt to enact his proclamation through: A) social pressure; B) new state laws; C) lawsuits of their own; or, when all else fails, D) just ignoring court orders.
Because the president (this one especially, but also his predecessors) is more than just a person.
I certainly don't think any camp would be okay with that, let alone MAGAs (and for obvious reasons)
It's a common trope of centrists and republicans to say that it's okay for Trump to explore the outer limits of legal theory and executive power, but at the same time freak out at what a Democrat might do with the government.
No, I wouldn't be fine with it.
Do you imagine this is what Trump is doing? Or that Democrats don't do the same? Democrats ran a long and successful campaign to crush anti-woke dissent, for instance. Broke lots of laws (and still do!) in the process. Questioning woke orthodoxy could get you blackballed or fired in government, and they wielded power to make sure the same was true in many non-gov institutions. They were even on the path to first amendment restrictions to protect this crusade. Even compelled speech in Biden's last Title IX!
Anywho, to steelman I think you would need to explicitly make the leap from "flag burning" to "running a campaign of crushing dissent", because flag burning doesn't seem like even part of a campaign against crushing dissent. It seems like empty pandering to stupider supporters.
Citation/elaboration needed. Same goes for the Title IX comment. How did Biden "compel speech" on campuses?
> and they wielded power to make sure the same was true in many non-gov institutions
Again, cancel culture, no matter how aggressive, is not the same as using the monopoly on violence to get your way. Woke mob vs federal agents. You could argue that some of Trump's actions like his lawsuit against the pollster aren't an official government action, but it certainly is a huge break from norms for a sitting President to sue over speech he doesn't like.
> explicitly make the leap from "flag burning" to "running a campaign of crushing dissent"
It's much more than just flag burning, as I've shown.
1) https://speechfirst.org/case/title-ix/ is the third ddg result for title ix compelled speech. Basically, the feds under Biden were going to compel use of people's preferred pronouns. Ideally it would have failed in court.
Elaboration: For a very long time, in many states and parts of the federal government, there has been overt discrimination on the basis of race, sex, disability status, etc. in direct and obvious violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Things like skin-color quotas for hiring, preferences for vendors, etc. You're certainly familiar. They hired people who would, at the very least, not speak out against their regime's practices, and ideally who would help perpetuate them.
> Again, cancel culture, no matter how aggressive... It's not just twitter mobs. To get the large gov't grants necessary to be successful in science, for instance, it was ~mandatory for the past while to have a DEI angle on your application. Many forms actually had a section for it. So, in this case, the gov't isn't using its monopoly on violence exactly, but it's not cancel culture. (and of course there were many grants funded that weren't just a DEI angle, it was 100% DEI bullshit)
"A huge conspiracy to overtly break the law" is what DEI was and still sadly largely is.
Generally the courts more reasonable than people think. You hear about the inflammatory rulings because that's what drives clicks.
https://reason.com/2025/06/05/is-the-supreme-court-really-th...
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-supreme-courts-part...
538 shows an increase in political polarization, but they're still unanimous on lots of things.
I think you forgot to answer to that comment so I am reminding you
I'm the opposite, I don't like or want a social life, I live comfortably, but by having kids I have no other choice than to participate in a bunch of communities just as a byproduct of trying to be a good dad.
Even the communities anyone participates today were likely built around kids in a past time.
The rest of the article is just trying to overcompensate for the decision of not having children.
I did just that, and built https://wonderful.dev
It's based around jobs for devs, but right now it's just a place to chat about tech.
> And this was when I finally realised something that should have been obvious. I had a small group of close friends who were spread across the country. I had a wider group of friends and acquaintances who I’d talk to online.
> But what I lacked was a community.
The “personal brand” and track record might be getting even more important now that the bar to building something has dropped to the floor.