102 pointsby Luc8 hours ago17 comments
  • AstroBen6 hours ago
    > Healthy, recreationally active but untrained young males

    Yeah this is why. Anything you do as an untrained person is going to get you newbie gains. It's just really easy to improve initially. Doesn't mean it'll work after the first 6 months

    • timran hour ago
      Perhaps there's some unmeasured influence, but this study was looking only at the difference between growth within subjects vs between subjects. If the subjects were all "newbies", then that doesn't explain the results.

      They're essentially saying that individual genetics explain the majority of the variation seen as a response to muscle stimulus in their test subjects, not the mass used, because the variation within the test cohorts was greater than the variation between them. You can argue that, if they didn't test experienced lifters the results might be different in that population, but you can't dismiss the results on those grounds.

      • sedivy947 minutes ago
        The activation energy or stimulus required for hypertrophy in untrained individuals is so low that it’s hard to differentiate the results. Studies like this absolutely need to be done in trained individuals if you want reliable data.
    • foldingmoney3 hours ago
      exactly. when you're new, virtually any type of lifting you do is going to create sufficient stimulus to trigger maximum muscle growth, because you're going from 0 to 1. unfortunately, since the only people that researchers can usually convince to participate in their studies are untrained, this has led to an enormous amount of junk studies where they try to extrapolate the results to people who are not untrained.
    • ed3 hours ago
      this wasn't a study of absolute growth (sure - newbie gains), but rather the difference between high and low load programming within individuals.
      • Nevermarkan hour ago
        > the difference between high and low load programming within [newbies]

        Fixed that.

        As the comment you replied to noted, newbie gains are remarkably sensitive to any stimulation, and insensitive to the type of stimulation. Because going from zero to any resistance training is a massive stimulus increase, on a long-term under stimulated system.

        The study does confirm that. The data it produces is useful.

        What this study doesn't do, is help newbies (or anyone) choose the most effective practices to adopt. Because 10 weeks is way too short to identify best practices for any sustained program.

  • armcat6 hours ago
    I thought it was already well understood/researched that it's not the weights that matter, but effectively taking your sets to muscular failure. While one might think "I can do 50 reps with low weights" there is practical aspects to this - you don't wand to spend hours at the gym, and doing heavy weights at 5-7 reps is sufficient as long as you are close or at muscular failure.
    • sedivy944 minutes ago
      Novelty of stimulus is a huge factor, especially as training continues over years. Failure from a set of 20 is very different than failure from a set of 5, and bodybuilders will periodize their training to cycle through the different flavors of stimulus. I think a big contributor might be neuromuscular adaptation. Cycling through those different intensities over training periods measured in months will make this apparent anecdotally.
    • safety1st2 hours ago
      There are a few issues with taking every set to failure, the most important being that it will substantially increase your risk of injury. It sounds great until you consider compounds like the deadlift that can ruin your back if your form is bad, and by definition, going to failure means your form will be imperfect at some point. There are lots of macho powerlifters out there with permanently ruined spines who will probably die earlier than they would have otherwise, due to mobility degradation.

      Particularly as you get older you become more injury prone and your recovery time slows down. This necessitates being cautious about how quickly you increase weight and how often you go to failure.

      The better goal to target is increasing volume, where volume is defined as Sets x Reps x Weight. The literature doesn't conclusively establish that any one of these is "more important" than the others for hypertrophy. The only real caveat when you follow this rule is that at a certain extreme of low weight / high reps (like 50 reps) you wouldn't actually be doing resistance training anymore, it'd be cardio.

      • acoard28 minutes ago
        What about longer rest periods? For example if I wait 1hr between sets I can do full weight again without dropping down weights with a 2-5min break. In fact I can get multiple more sets in and significantly increase my total volume if I spread a workout over a day (which is easier with WFH). Any thoughts on this? Is there not enough muscle fatigue with this approach?
        • travisjungroth13 minutes ago
          Hard to stay warmed up that way. What you’re describing is how people tend to get big without the gym (lifting heavy things through the day) but they also tend be pretty active in between (think farm work).

          But as long as you’re not going so hard you risk injury, it might be great overall. Could be really good for your mental state.

      • Retric2 hours ago
        2 reps in reserve is fine and far less painful, but you need to go to actual failure often enough to know where failure is on each set. I’m nerdy enough to suggest rolling a 20 sided die for each set, and on a 1 take it to failure it’s not that complicated and keeps your predictions honest.

        As I understand it taking a set near failure works reasonably anywhere between 5 to 30 reps, but 30 well controlled reps with good form * 3+ sets for each muscle group gets really boring.

        • nrhrjrjrjtntbt21 minutes ago
          Boring is subjective though. For some like me the ideal weight gives endorphins where as too much feels like cortisol. Too light is sort of nothing. So I aim for that "yeah I pushed something" feeling. Which isn't failure.
      • siddboots2 hours ago
        I think the total volume idea is more flawed than you realise. Pretty much everyone would be able to achieve greater volume, on any exercise, just by decreasing the weight, so your high rep caveat is covering up for quite a lot. This is true mathematically for an Epley style model for example.
    • kace916 hours ago
      >While one might think "I can do 50 reps with low weights"

      The caveat is that you need anaerobic training. Low enough weight and it’s cardio, you don’t get giant legs by walking to failure for example.

      • nnutter3 hours ago
        Has anyone really ever walked to failure on a regular basis? I typically have to stop because of blisters not muscle failure. (The furthest I've done is 12 miles with +10% weight.)
        • exq2 hours ago
          I backpack often (usually 8-13% bodyweight in my pack) and during long summer days I can comfortably push well into the 30 mile per day range if there isn't too much vert to slow my pace down. My feet get sore, brain gets tired, and I run out of daylight well before any sort of muscle failure in my legs. If you aren't used to walking from sunrise to sunset doing so would build muscle, but your time would be better spent on a progressive overload leg routine in a gym.
          • LorenPechtelan hour ago
            Yup, I have never gone that far (but my summer hiking is entirely at high elevation with lots of climb) but I have never found anything like a failure point--I wear out because of time (not even daylight--I've made navigation errors that left me out there well past sunset), not muscle failure.
        • worthless-trash3 hours ago
          I used to persistent hunt to failure, ended up with bulky calves and tibialis.
          • bglazer2 hours ago
            Where were you doing this? Were you ever successful? How did you do it, like what were your tactics? So many questions!

            I’ve never heard about modern people doing serious persistence hunting, except for a stunt that I read about years ago. I think it was organized by like Outside or some running publication that got pro marathoners to try and they failed because they didn’t know anything about hunting

            • conceptionan hour ago
              Right? Where’s the well written blog post on this I want?
        • UI_at_80x243 hours ago
          Check anybody that has done the AT.
          • LorenPechtelan hour ago
            You think they hike to failure??

            (And you should be looking at the CDT, anyway.)

    • xnx6 hours ago
      Well understood, but not widely known. The myths and superstitions around anything health related are frustratingly durable.
    • landl0rd3 hours ago
      Fifty is excessive but you’re better-served doing 12-20 reps more than fewer, heavier reps if you’re pushing hypertrophy and already well-trained.
      • taneqan hour ago
        That matches what I've been told by various personal trainers. 6-8 reps if focusing on strength, ~12 for all round, and 16-18 for size/endurance. Do three sets, weight should be enough that the last couple of reps on the first set are a bit of a struggle. Subsequent sets just push through as far as you can.
        • hatefulheart40 minutes ago
          Your trainers clearly never read Starting Strength.
    • toshinoriyagi3 hours ago
      The weight does matter. You will never get bigger if you don't add weight to the bar, and you will never get bigger if you only train at 1% of your 1 rep max, no matter the number of reps. Producing a training stimulus requires placing the muscle under sufficient tension (enough weight) enough times to be at or near failure.
    • fudged714 hours ago
      Brad Schoenfeld Has been on this body of work for a long time, and he is "Mr. Hypertrophy" in the field. So yes
    • elevaet6 hours ago
      What about the old gym adage "training to failure is failing to train" - is there any physiological basis for this, or is it mental, or just a myth?
      • NoLinkToMe19 minutes ago
        It holds true, but with some caveats.

        Generally training to failure is completely fine for say a set of tricep extensions. Generally safe.

        However, training to failure on compound lifts like a deadlift or benchpress, or involving sensitive muscles like a shoulder press, isn't.

        Technique generally suffers at the point of failure. Making a habit of doing thousands of repetitions in the next decade at the point where technique fails, on an exercise that can mess up your back permanently, or your shoulders, is bad advice.

        For these exercises it's better to stop 2 reps short of failure. This is more safe. Also it requires moderate recovery getting you back in the gym quicker, meaning you can compound more incremental improvements in a given training period (say 5 years).

        Even then, some still cautiously go to failure to keep an understanding of what their failure point really is. You could go for a PR once or twice a month for example and go to failure, with a proper warmup, spotter etc. But purely for hypertrophy there's not really a point, this is more for strength training.

        Generally people that say they train to failure mean 2 reps in reserve. Training to absolute failure on all muscles is very rare and generally advised against.

      • wswope6 hours ago
        That’s a Pl/Oly mindset rather than a BB/hypertrophy mindset. Totally valid advice in the right context.

        Long story short, failed reps get much more risky and problematic as the weight you’re lifting approaches your 1RM.

        • Moto74513 hours ago
          Exactly this. When I was in my best shape my deadlift and squat were in/on the way to 2.5-3x my body weight. You don’t want to fail that without a lot of help and safeties.

          Note for the uninitiated: That figure is not even impressive or competitive with competition lifters. This is just “guy who put in the time and work” numbers.

      • teecha5 hours ago
        not an expert, 2 years of serious lifting, but this is probably a good adage for the average person from my current understanding

        training to failure puts you at higher risk of injury and there are diminishing returns as you approach your 1 rep max and/or failure

        hypertrophy can happen with more reps or more weight

        strength gains are usually just focused on progressive overload

        though, of course, hypertrophy will happen either way and contributes to increased strength, but this seems to be further confirmation that you can gain muscle size either way

      • nzeid4 hours ago
        It's definitely way more nuanced than that. You have to approach exhaustion to get the body to eventually build strength. But you need to carefully time your rests/deloads and handle plateaus with more volume.
        • thatcat3 hours ago
          Where could I find more information on proper set timing?
          • Moto74513 hours ago
            Honestly from a personal training/lifting coach. When I could spend serious time in the gym there’s a lot to just having someone with expertise for 30 minutes to give perspective. You can do a lot of it over video today as well.

            In general YouTube is a good resource. There are a lot of respected coaches that also produce content.

      • kace916 hours ago
        I’ve never heard that, it’s usually the opposite- people do strip sets and the like to reach failure
    • amelius6 hours ago
      How about making muscles fail by stretching them under load?
      • mrob6 hours ago
        Depending on what you mean by "fail" and "stretching", that sounds a lot like eccentric training [0] (a.k.a. "negatives"). It's effective but notorious for causing delayed onset muscle soreness.

        I trained myself to do pull-ups using this method, repeatedly lowering myself in a controlled motion from the top position while I was too weak to actually pull myself up.

        [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eccentric_training

      • jimbo8086 hours ago
        Sounds like a great way to injure yourself, also would only work for eccentric motion
        • amelius6 hours ago
          To me it doesn't sound much different than "taking your sets to muscular failure".
          • jimbo8085 hours ago
            Not all muscles resist extension, some do the opposite and contract.
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            • pasquinelli3 hours ago
              i don't understand what this means. the stretch feeling is an involuntary muscle contraction that is happening to resist extension on the opposite side.
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    • vasco5 hours ago
      > Loads for each set were adjusted to ensure that volitional fatigue was reached within 8–12 and 20–25 repetitions for the HL and LL limbs, respectively

      I would argue both categories of the study are about low reps. I don't see how the body would tell the difference between 12 and 25 reps. If you said between 5 and 500, like it has to meaningfully take much longer, otherwise why would doing something so similar have any meaningful difference?

      The way I think about it is that nature mostly reacts to order of magnitude changes. 12 to 25 is the same thing.

      Like why not make a study to see if its more nutritious to eat dinner in 15 or 20 minutes?

      • pjc505 hours ago
        This is spoken like you've never done any reps at all?
        • vasco5 hours ago
          There's not much difference in hitting max at 12 and at 25, from anecdotal experience. The study corroborated that as well, even though with small n.
      • mnky9800n5 hours ago
        I feel like I would definitely notice if I went from 12 to 25 reps on any exercise I do. Although typically I max out at 8 before adding more weight.
        • Dylan168073 hours ago
          > I feel like I would definitely notice if I went from 12 to 25 reps on any exercise I do.

          To be clear, the implication is that 12 and 25 have different weights so they tire you the same amount. Do you think it would be a very strongly felt difference in that situation? What would the difference feel like?

  • weinzierl6 hours ago
    If I read this correctly the gist is that it does not matter if you use heavy weights with few reps (common body builder wisdom) or lighter weights with more reps. As long as you always exercise to complete muscle fatigue you'll get the maximum for your genetics (which itself varies a lot).
    • rorytbyrne5 hours ago
      > heavy weights with few reps (common body builder wisdom)

      It is strength training (not body builder) wisdom to use heavy weights with few reps. Hypertrophy (i.e. body builder) programmes usually call for 8-12 reps, which implies relatively low weights.

      • NooneAtAll35 hours ago
        is "8-12" not "few" for you?
        • rorytbyrne4 hours ago
          Relatively speaking, no. Strength training (as opposed to hypertrophy) calls for fewer reps, around 5 per set.

          Many people advise spending about a year doing more sets of fewer (~5) reps to build strength, and then switch to fewer sets of more reps (8-12) when you want to build muscle mass.

          Point being, the idea of doing lighter weights until failure is already kind of there in body building wisdom.

        • SoftTalker4 hours ago
          3-5 reps per set for powerlifting training. Competition lifts are a single rep.
        • throwaway67344 hours ago
          1-3 is few
    • bob10294 hours ago
      There's no way this works in practice. A lot of heavy lifting (maximums) is about neurology and mind-body training. You cannot develop the ability to deadlift 405lbs by spending 2 hours using a cable crossover machine every day. Picking up something that weighs 2x more than you do requires your brain to send an extremely strong, synchronized signal. This is something that takes a lot of practice to develop. You have to consistently push your maximum voluntary effort in order to expand this capacity.
      • toshinoriyagi2 hours ago
        There is a minimum weight you must use to create a training stimulus, but yes, you can increase your 1RM with higher-rep sets (again, to a limit, they can't be sets of 100, the weight is too light).

        To increase your 1RM at the most optimal pace, yes you need to specifically train the movement so that you can benefit from improved technique and neurological adaptation. But if I do tricep, pec, and front delt isolation exercises at higher reps, to failure, and see significant hypertrophy in these muscles, my bench press will be stronger, other things constant.

      • jjj1234 hours ago
        Right, but this post is about hypertrophy (big muscles). Not about heavy lifts.
        • bob10294 hours ago
          Well one thing can lead into the other over time. If you can lift 405 once, 315 for reps becomes pedestrian and 225 becomes boring. Lifting that much weight will turn you into a monster faster than if you had not pushed for that capacity. I've seen people who can treat a 225lb barbell as if it's unloaded and 100% of them look like dragon ball Z characters.
          • paulmooreparks3 hours ago
            Body mechanics, leverage, and neuro-muscular connection definitely come into play. I could deadlift 430lbs for reps at my peak, and I while I was no string bean, I also didn't look all that muscular compared to the other lifters at my gym. I have ridiculously long arms relative to my height and relatively shorter legs, which gives me an advantage for deadlift. I had monstrous-looking guys watch me lift and then ask me what stack I was on. They didn't believe me when I said I was natural.
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    • toomuchtodo6 hours ago
      Can we replicate the process of reaching muscle fatigue/failure to spur muscle growth without the strength training or anabolic steroids? Think GLP-1RAs but for this specific biological pathway.

      https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/lilly-terminate-obesity-t...

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/...

      • toshinoriyagi2 hours ago
        Steroid use has been shown to increase muscle in untrained males by around 25-30% I believe, without adding any exercise. That doesn't accomplish too much. If you want any worthwhile results, you will still have to train, although the steroids produce significantly more results for the same investment.
      • allan_s5 hours ago
        My understanding is that anabolic steroid are somehow close to what you're thinking about? It's just that as anything taking a simple shortcut , it comes with unwanted effects
      • stuffn3 hours ago
        The reason no one has found a better way is because hypertrophy is because it’s well understood and there’s no “better” solution. mTOR is the primary hormone pathway.thy increase the adaptation ceiling by increasing RBC, reducing protein breakdown, etc. Thereby reducing rest needed, so mTOR is heavily unregulated.

        This is one of the view places where “if we could we would” is the correct answer. There is so much money in the space of anabolic cheating, the clandestine scientists would’ve already developed it.

    • zemvpferreira6 hours ago
      It’s worth noting that muscle is not all the same. If you’re just into bodybuilding then sure, proximity to failure is what matters. For athletics though, there still seems to be a big impact in the rep range you work in.
      • d-us-vb6 hours ago
        This. Muscles can be optimized for volume/endurance or power, or some balance between them. Taking legs as an example: Powerlifters obviously go for pure power, whereas runners need a bit of power but mostly endurance, whereas cyclists need more power than runners but more endurance than powerlifters.

        All of these benefit from weight training, but depending on the sport, the programming will be very different.

        • allan_s5 hours ago
          I think I know where they're coming from as I used to have a similar wrong model. I thought strength = more muscle cells and endurance = just better heart/lungs to deliver oxygen and clear waste like CO2 and lactic acid.

          Turns out muscle fibers mostly grow bigger rather than more numerous, and there are different fiber types (slow-twitch vs fast-twitch) that adapt based on how you train. So for the same muscle, an Ironman runner and a guy doing heavy low-rep squats will develop different fiber characteristics: you can't fully max out both.

          I'm simplifying, but learning this changed a lot about how I understand exercise at the biological level.

    • kace916 hours ago
      It is actually common bodybuilder wisdom to go for the lighter version.

      Stereotyping, weightlifters who go for max numbers do 1 set of a million pounds and rest three hours between exercises, while bodybuilders do thirty exercises a day for 8 series of 15 reps each.

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    • MattRix5 hours ago
      Unless I’m missing something, this has already been known, though the hypertrophic benefits start to reduce beyond 30 reps.
  • Imanari5 hours ago
    For beginner lifters that might be true initially, but eventually weight will matter.
  • westurner25 minutes ago
    What about Time Under Tension?

    "Equalization of Training Protocols by Time Under Tension Determines the Magnitude of Changes in Strength and Muscular Hypertrophy" (2022) https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fulltext/2022/07000/equal... :

    > Abstract: [...] In conclusion, training protocols with the same TUT promote similar strength gains and muscle hypertrophy. Moreover, considering that the protocols used different numbers of repetitions, the results indicate that training volumes cannot be considered separately from TUT when evaluating neuromuscular adaptations.

  • Analemma_6 hours ago
    I know it's practically de rigeur to jump into the comments and immediately complain about methodology for any study that makes it to the front page, and I want to emphasize I don't distrust their findings, but I would like to see an equivalent study go out longer than 10 weeks. When I've been taking weightlifting seriously I feel like I don't even start to notice hypertrophy until 8-10 weeks. I feel like 6 months is the actual period where results would matter, to me, but I assume "subject compliance" is pretty difficult to get for such a timeframe, if you're really watching dietary intake and ensuring subjects go to failure (which, to its credit, this study did).
    • mf_tomb6 hours ago
      This is par for the course with exercise science. It's mostly fake. No blinding, small sample sizes, researchers with agenda, low duration, low funding etc. The good news is that doing almost anything works.
      • throwaway173738an hour ago
        Doing almost anything works better than doing nothing.
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  • bethekidyouwant6 hours ago
    The group that did lower reps with higher weight, had the better one rep max at the end of the study, but they didn’t measure if the higher rep group had greater endurance. Which seems a bit odd, considering their conclusion is both groups grew the same amount of muscle which fine but if the muscle is adapted for something different in each group, you would want to capture that.
  • mmmilanooo6 hours ago
    It does matter. It's the only objective way to measure progress. A study doesn't negate that.
    • yjftsjthsd-h5 hours ago
      I don't think so? If last week I could do 50 reps @ 5 lbs, and this week I can do 50 at 6 lbs (or 60 at 5lbs), then that's measurable objective progress
    • justatdotin6 hours ago
      isnt the 1RM the measure of progress?
      • SoftTalker4 hours ago
        If that's what you're training for, sure. If you just want to be strong, you can achieve that and avoid the highest injury risk by sticking with 5 reps or so.
  • henning2 hours ago
    Yep, lots of different ways to get jacked. That means if you couldn't care less about strength, you can do pretty much any decent exercise that targets the muscle(s) you want to grow in a very wide rep range. Most people want a combination of both size and strength, so you can just do some sets of 5-10 if you aren't already. If you want to have a strong deadlift or squat or whatever, you should train that movement. Not as complicated as fitness social media people want to make it seem: train for what you want.
  • Sporktacular6 hours ago
    So resistance is futile?
  • Torkel6 hours ago
    I.e.

    No pain, no gain.

    • slashtmpslashme4 hours ago
      • mahdi7d13 hours ago
        If it's not painfull you are not exerting enough effort at least that's the case in the gym. People who are refreshed and more energetic after going to the gym are the same people who won't improve beyond intermediate levels. The ones who let go of the any set at the first feelings of unease and never take a set close to failure.

        It's actually fascinating how an ancient proverb could line up with modern science so perfectly.

        • toshinoriyagi2 hours ago
          It certainly does not need to be painful. I think most people will make a distinction between the burn of acidosis, or what you call unease, and actual pain indicating damage is occurring.

          But yes, if you never train close to failure you will not grow, not past beginner gains, unless you take steroids.

    • cyberax6 hours ago
      This is really terrible advice that just discourages people.

      You absolutely can get significant improvements without (much) pain. DOMS during the initial stages is going to be the most uncomfortable part. Once you're past it, you don't need to push yourself to a breaking point, just to the point of mild exhaustion.

      This will provide you enough resistance to gain muscle mass and improve the bone density to healthy levels.

      • strken5 hours ago
        Yeah, "no pain no gain" is probably the worst advice I've ever received. It encourages sedentary people to go hard for a week and then quit, which is the exact opposite of what works: starting with consistent easy sessions and adding progressive overload.

        Dynomight has a good blog post about this[0], but applied to running rather than resistance training.

        [0] https://dynomight.net/2021/01/25/how-to-run-without-all-the-...

  • lifetimerubyist6 hours ago
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  • carnufex4 hours ago
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  • hazard6 hours ago
    tldr appears to be that if you work to fatigue it doesn't matter if you fatigue out with high weights vs low weights
    • vlod6 hours ago
      I agree with this, but for those newbies be careful at what you define as "failure".

      I've f.up my MCL by not listening to my body and I have the stability of a typical 85 year old while I try and 'heal'. It takes longer as you get older (you're probably not 20 year old) and stupid stuff can really take you out.

    • andoando4 hours ago
      There is certainly a difference in a slow twitch vs fast twitch muscle adaptation though

      https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8139349/

    • chrishare6 hours ago
      When training for muscle size atleast, but not strength. Presumably there are increased injury risks overall when lifting heavy (based on a brief search).
    • teecha5 hours ago
      fairly new to lifting myself (2+ years taking it seriously) but this thing seems to jive with what I've read across different areas

      bodybuilders can build muscle size with high reps and lower weight or lower reps and high weight as long as they do it close to failure with only a few reps in reserve (rir)

      powerlifters, or those focusing on strength, usually go for high weight and lower reps because they might be training for a competition that focuses on 1 rep max and/or the body can really only handle so many reps when pushing it at 80-90% of 1 rep max

      neither is inherently better but a matter of what goals you have in mind, plus, hypertrophy contributes to overall strength, too

  • cubefox6 hours ago
    > Twenty healthy young male participants completed thrice-weekly resistance exercise sessions for 10 weeks.

    Not sure how much can be concluded from this.

    • cubefox2 hours ago
      I think the downvoters need to read up on underpowered statistics.
  • amelius6 hours ago
    Wait, why are we figuring this out only now?
    • overhead40756 hours ago
      A paper doesn't necessarily mean the information is new, but that there is now some/more evidence to support it.
      • amelius5 hours ago
        True, but this kind of information is so basic it almost fits in the "world is round" category.
  • landl0rd3 hours ago
    You can do the goofiest workout you can possibly imagine as a young untrained male and put on muscle. You will do so at roughly max rate regardless of what you do as long as it’s vaguely productive. This isn’t useful research ngl.