114 pointsby coldpie13 hours ago19 comments
  • tantivy8 hours ago
    I'm often so flustered to be interrupted by yet-another-marketing-modal that I will just close the tab and abandon whatever task, or purchase, I was undertaking. They are actively harmful to my holistic state-of-mind and make me into a more agitated and cynical user of the web.

    Who are the people who decided this is how 90% of web pages should act, and how did they win? Do so many people really sign up for newsletters when prompted?

    • analogpixel7 hours ago
      btw, if you use https://kagi.com/ , they have a workflow for this: if you are on a site, and they popup a modal asking for you to sign up for something, you click back to the kagi.com search results, click the shield icon, and then click block. Now you'll never see that site show up again in your search results.

      I've found those sites that want you to sign up for stuff usually have poor content to begin with, so this is just helping you curate out all the bad content out there.

      • thousand_nights4 hours ago
        sadly sometimes it's e-commerce websites where you actually want to buy their product and they interrupt you three times with "sign up to our newsletter and get 5% off with the code" modals, like they're actively trying to frustrate me into not giving them my money
        • kevin_thibedeau2 hours ago
          It's infuriating when you click on the search box, start typing, and the modal pops up disrupting your attempt to give them money.
      • TheUnhinged3 hours ago
        DuckDuckGo has that feature, too.
        • dhosek2 hours ago
          They have it hidden behind a … menu though which is unfortunate because it’s a great feature to have.
      • isodev7 hours ago
        But if you truly care about privacy or any kind of control, just don’t use kagi
        • wolvoleo2 hours ago
          I assume you mean because you have to be logged in in order to use kagi?

          They do have anonimised logins for this though: https://blog.kagi.com/kagi-privacy-pass which is a pretty good mitigation IMO. As it's a paid service of course proving you paid is a must.

          And as for control, I can't agree there. Kagi offers more control than any other search engine through its lenses and the ability to influence the ranking of search results from specific sites.

          I don't use their service at the moment, I'm pretty ok with my self hosted SearXNG and I like being able to customise the look and feel there too. But Kagi is excellent as search engines go.

        • reciprocity3 hours ago
          How does one make a comment like this, I wonder, and not substantiate.
        • jjtheblunt5 hours ago
          why would you say that?
        • DANmode4 hours ago
          Say more, or say less.
        • neodymiumphish3 hours ago
          Uh, what? Wanna explain why?
    • sixtyj7 hours ago
      Similar people who used animated banners in '00s.

      And as they don’t use Posthog or any other tool for monitoring users’ behaviour, they don’t see patterns.

      Yes, websites popups, asynchronous ads or autoplay videos are such annoying that someone should come with a solution. I think that a lot of people would pay for it - e.g. collected money could be redistributed back to visited sites. (As micropayment projects weren’t successful due to transaction fees.)

      I use Adblock, cookies consent autoclick, Facebook antitracker - but others must be mad as they see all popups and ads.

      But I understand that sites have to have some revenue stream to pay authors…

    • aaplok6 hours ago
      Being obnoxious works well. Obnoxious people get elected to power. Obnoxious companies (and CEOs) generate hype that increases stock prices. Obnoxious youtubers call themselves influencers and make a good living out of it.

      Or more charitably it is difficult to be successful without annoying many people.

      • BuyMyBitcoins4 hours ago
        There was some company a while back, I forget what they were called, but their claim to fame was a much higher click through rate on modal popups due to them “guilting” people with dynamic messages like “No, I don’t want to save up to 50%” or “I would rather let children starve than sign up for this newsletter”.

        One, I can’t believe this worked. Two, some website owners were convinced that being patronizing towards visitors was worth the extra clicks.

      • ranger_danger4 hours ago
        What I've seen lead to success:

        * Arrogance

        * Overconfidence

        * Schmoozing with the right people

        * Doing flashy work, whatever that means in a given situation

        What I have seen lead to failure or, at best, being undervalued and ignored:

        * Caring about teammates and your future self

        * Caring about the end user and the business itself, when it conflicts with something sales, marketing, or a PM want

        * Creating resilient, well-engineered systems

        It's the same problem as anywhere else. Well-crafted systems are invisible and taken for granted. Saving the day by putting out a fire is applauded, even when you're the one who laid out the kindling and matches. Managers at all levels care about their own ego more than the company, product, or team.

        Maybe I just spent too much time with ex-Microsoft hacks.

        • Bridged775617 minutes ago
          No, the first one thrives because they know how to play politics, the second one fails because they don't know how to play politics.

          You described word for word the archetypical engineer, competent technically, incompetent politically. A liability to his team and superiors in a cut-throat corporate environment. That's why they fail, they can't be trusted to not screw their team over to do the right thing.

        • thenthenthen3 hours ago
          This can applied to a lot of sectors, look at the arts and culture for example
        • collaborative3 hours ago
          No, you are right
      • ocdtrekkiean hour ago
        Quite true. Sundar Pichai got his start on the path to fame at Google by getting the Google Toolbar install injected into things like the Adobe Acrobat and Adobe Flash installers. Look at him now.
    • dpark7 hours ago
      1. Pop up demanding I make a choice about their cookies.

      2. Pop up telling me my adblocker is bad and I should feel bad.

      3. Pop up suggesting I join their club/newsletter/whatever.

      Every. fucking. site.

      The newsletter one is especially obnoxious because it’s always got a delay so it shows up when I’m actually trying to read something or do something.

      Edit: Oh, yeah. 4. Pop up to remind me I should really be using their app.

      • wolvoleo2 hours ago
        For the cookies you have the Consent-O-Matic plugin. For the rest Ublock Origin is pretty effective with the optional Annoyances lists switched on.
      • econ7 hours ago
        You forgot to sub to push.
      • BuyMyBitcoins4 hours ago
        For a while I would put “f***yournewsletter@gmail.com” but then I realized no one would ever see it, and it probably just helps their click numbers.

        I detest newsletter modals.

        • wiml3 hours ago
          I used to go to the trouble of looking up the company's own sales contact or cxo or whatever and subscribing them to themselves, but now I just close the tab.
      • isodev7 hours ago
        It’s because they care about your privacy, they want you to know just how much their care, so much so they’re ready to show you popups /s.
    • mrtesthah8 hours ago
      Clearly the market is always efficient and optimal. This is the solution it chose.
      • somerandomqaguy7 hours ago
        The market did choose it's most optimal. The real burning question is who's the customer.
    • calvinmorrison7 hours ago
      I once dated a woman who had every store card, always signed up for the coupons, sign up here for free checkout, etc... and NO it did not bother her. She would see 'sign up now for 20% off!' and smile! like it positively hit her like she just won the lottery
      • kogepathic7 hours ago
        > She would see 'sign up now for 20% off!' and smile! like it positively hit her like she just won the lottery

        If you intend to purchase an item from the merchant anyway, why would you pass on 20% off?

        I sign up for newsletters to get a discount then immediately unsubscribe. If merchants are going to offer a discount for me to input my email, copy the code they email me, and GMail unsubscribe why would I turn that down?

        • josefxan hour ago
          > If you intend to purchase an item from the merchant anyway, why would you pass on 20% off?

          Most discounts I run into seem to be based on incredibly inflated pricess to begin with. If a shop offers me a 20% discount on something it is often cheaper to buy it somewhere else.

        • kevin_thibedeau2 hours ago
          This sort of person is a spend-a-holic. They use "sales" as an excuse to engage in unnecessary discretionary spending.
          • SoftTalker38 minutes ago
            LOL yes I had a friend who would buy stuff because it was on sale and talk about how much money he "saved." I would always ask "do you have more or less money now?"
        • loloquwowndueo7 hours ago
          Because once they have your email and can link it to your identity via your purchase details they’re going to sell that list to some marketer sleazeball and you’ll get spam from other sources until the end of time?
          • thrill7 hours ago
            “you’ll get spam from other sources until the end of time?”

            So … ops normal?

          • lkbm6 hours ago
            I've signed up for plenty of these lists with per-site emails, and it's very rare for me to end up getting email from anyone but the list I signed up for. Might be different when shopping on international sites (though I doubt it's worse in the EU), but in the US, sites generally don't sell your email. More likely they'll leak it accidentally.
          • wat100007 hours ago
            My email has been out there for 25+ years now. Filtering has been able to handle it for all but the first couple of years of that period.
    • econ7 hours ago
      Me too!
  • SunshineTheCat7 hours ago
    I feel like the worst offenders of this are pretty much every mainstream news website.

    A little while back I visited one of the bigger ones without my ad blocker on and it was completely unusable. Autoplay videos, banners, ads between every paragraph of the article, sponsored links, popups, and the list goes on.

    If the news industry is in fact struggling and laying off writers, I'm not sure making people want to leave your site as quickly as possible is really the best strategy.

    • themafia2 hours ago
      They don't care about return visitors or "loyal viewers."

      It's a shotgun strategy. Every once in a while a story will hit. So they maximize value for the rarest event.

    • analogpixel7 hours ago
      Oh hi, I noticed you closed the live video window I opened up, let me open that up again for you.

      Oh, looks like you closed that live video window again, let me get that back up for you again.

      Ooops, looks like your clumsy fingers accidentally closed that live video again, let me just get that opened back up for you.

    • afavour7 hours ago
      > If the news industry is in fact struggling and laying off writers, I'm not sure making people want to leave your site as quickly as possible is really the best strategy.

      It definitely isn’t but I think it’s all they have left. Subscriptions just don’t work any more. And less tech savvy users just battle through it, presumably through gritted teeth.

      • wolvoleo2 hours ago
        I kinda see the opposite, all sites seem to be going to subscription models. Obviously it doesn't work because I'm not going to subscribe to every news site I see a link from on HN.

        So I tend to use archive.ph . I wish there was a plugin to open a page in that more easily though. Luckily most HN posts have a reader contributing a link in the comments.

      • wat100007 hours ago
        Declining industries can get into a death spiral where they can’t find a way to stop bleeding customers, so they focus on extracting more money from the customers who remain. Which then drives away even more of them. It’s not a good strategy, but there may not be a good strategy.
  • benregenspan7 hours ago
    > Pop-ups are back, and they’re worse than ever

    The article opens with a screenshot of genuine pop-ups, and they are clearly so much worse than the (still annoying) modals presented later in the article. In the past, sites spawned a mess of popups that extended out of the browser window and persisted even when the page was navigated away from. Now if you don't like what the page is doing, you can at least just navigate away.

    • lmm4 hours ago
      On the contrary. Popups you could leave for later and/or close with the browser chrome, as bad as they are, are less annoying than today's modals that block the site you were reading until you find the magic pixel.
      • Waterluvianan hour ago
        They were so much worse. They’d basically “corrupt” your system state. They were often self replicating and so you’d have to quit the whole browser to make it stop. Sometimes even that wasn’t enough. Sometimes it would grind your PC to a halt and you’d have to reboot.
    • compass_copium7 hours ago
      >sites spawned a mess of popups that extended out of the browser window and persisted even when the page was navigated away from

      I feel like that was mostly porn sites. I find modals far more intrusive on mainstream sites.

      • wolvoleo2 hours ago
        Porn and privacy sites. Especially the latter still do it a LOT and they will just block you if you block the popups.
  • asadotzler4 hours ago
    Firefox and uBlock Origin with a couple of user filters and haven't seen a window or modal popup in ages. It's not hard to deal with nonsense on the web with a decent browser like Firefox and content blocker like UBO.
    • lwansbrough4 hours ago
      The solution may just have to be technological literacy.
  • chrsw7 hours ago
    I thought the problem was me not keeping my software up-to-date. Looks like web browsing was fun while it lasted.

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I mostly use ad-blockers and content filters and when I go to a commercial page without that stuff I'm shocked how terrible the experience is. That shock should have told me too many people were losing too much money and the usable web gravy train was about to come to an end.

    • The_President3 hours ago
      Discourse is the place to build civilized communities that bake in a flag to tell the end user’s browser to not render CSS or javascript if the browser is “too out of date.”
  • pentagrama4 hours ago
    On uBlock Origin settings > Filter lists > Annoyances

    Check all the items [1] and it may improve your experience with modern pop-ups.

    [1] https://imgur.com/a/2jkf6YA

    • wolvoleo2 hours ago
      Yup this works really well.

      Only issue I've seen is that sometimes it blocks a poorly implemented cookie popup. This means it can't be handled by Consent-O-Matic either and then the site becomes unresponsive because it's waiting for a cookie choice.

  • wincy8 hours ago
    If I’m using the AdGuard safari extension on my iPhone, I noticed the Etsy website didn’t work at all (there’s some fantastic costume sellers there, and I was looking at what it’d take to dress like a Viking). Anyway, on load the screen becomes grayed out with no way for me to fix it or interact with any underlying elements.

    If I disable the content blockers temporarily, it’s because it’s trying to direct me toward the Etsy iOS app, which I would never in a million years install.

    It does this at least daily, I tried it just now and it’ll go away for maybe 24h before the invisible pop up comes back.

    • godelski7 hours ago
      Fyi, ublock is on iOS now
      • wolvoleo2 hours ago
        But not the full version we get on Firefox android I assume? Because the iOS adblock API doesn't give the full feature set needed to do that. At least last time I checked.

        I really hope Mozilla will make a full iOS version for the EU so I can use my iPad more. My phone is android so I just use Firefox there.

    • rsyncan hour ago
      Install the dns4eu configuration profile with adblocking:

      https://github.com/whalebone/DNS4EU-Public/tree/main/iOS/DoH

      ... and block all of it on a system level beneath Safari.

  • darthoctopus8 hours ago
    I would absolutely love for this proposed blocker to happen, but I have zero faith in it actually happening given the user-centred nature of this feature and the user-hostile origin of Mozilla's funding situation…
    • s3graham8 hours ago
      It's also pretty challenging since they're not OS-level windows any more.

      It's the same problem as video ad blockers and YouTube: the ads/sponsorships have just become embedded in the main stream so they're much more difficult to obviously delineate from the actual video.

      • quink8 hours ago
        SponsorBlock. Granted, doesn’t do much for my iPhone but on computers it’s a solved problem.
        • oxguy34 hours ago
          SponsorBlock is available on just about every type of device these days -- works perfectly on Android with YouTube ReVanced. The options on iOS are naturally a bit more limited, but apparently it's possible on a jailbroken device (or through some other slightly-janky methods on non-jailbroken devices): https://github.com/ajayyy/SponsorBlock/wiki/iOS
        • hagbard_c4 hours ago
          It works on Firefox on Android as well, as do many other FF extensions. It won't work on a fruit phone [1], the Firefox version you can get there is lobotomised because the fruit factory is afraid a full-feature browser not under their control will eat into their app store margins.

          [1] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1486487

          • wolvoleo2 hours ago
            Yeah I hope Mozilla will make a full version for the EU which is possible now. But Apple is making it as hard as possible for them, there was an article about that only recently.
      • econ7 hours ago
        It's just nihilism, we can put the urls on dht when we are ready.
      • IshKebab7 hours ago
        Although to be fair YouTube itself has started to defeat those - they put a little white dot in the timeline when the ad finishes.

        I'm not sure how they do it but I think AI could pretty easily detect current ad transitions. Especially when combined with data about which bits of the video most people skip.

        I think it'll lead to sponsorships being much more integrated into videos rather than a sponsorship segment. Or possibly people will switch to much shorter segments like LTT does.

        I never really understood why they want long segments anyway. Shorter ones mean I'm much more likely to actually see it.

        • wolvoleo2 hours ago
          Really, YouTube should just auto skip sponsor segments for premium users. As it is Premium isn't worth it. Because you still get bombarded with ads despite paying to stop them.

          Of course it will hurt the content creators but they are already getting paid much more per view by premium customers! So showing sponsor segments as well is double dipping.

  • mxmilkiiban hour ago
    maybe the intro etc of absurd.org could somehow happen again. a very artsy artefact of a website that utilised popups (and Java) at certain points

    https://web.archive.org/web/20090820110717/http://www.absurd...

  • childintimean hour ago
    Popups and Cloudflare stepping in.
  • wolvoleo2 hours ago
    UBlock origin is pretty good at blocking those in-page popups though. You do have to add the optional Annoyances blocklists for that though.
  • lapcat7 hours ago
    The old-style popup windows have a specific API window.open() that can be blocked. What the author calls popups are mostly just HTML <div> elements, perhaps using CSS properties such as position and/or z-index, so there's no generic way to block them. It's extremely difficult to block the "bad" ones while allowing the "good" ones. If this were a problem that could be solved generically, then browser extensions would have solved it long ago. Instead, the browser extensions are forced to keep extremely long lists of mostly site-specific elements to block. I'm not sure how the web browser vendors themselves could it it any differently, without completely redesigning HTML.
    • an hour ago
      undefined
    • econ6 hours ago
      Only allow dom/css changes in response to user action.
      • themafia2 hours ago
        "Only allow play of audio in response to user action."

        Okay, cool, so there's a giant 'click' event handler on top of the whole page. When you click it I'm going to play a 250ms long sample of silence embedded as a data:// URL into the audio or video element.

        Now I control the player and can do whatever I want.

        You've inconvenienced me for 15 minutes.

      • lesuorac4 hours ago
        "Click here to prove you're human"

        Coincidentally, the most devious way I've seen to make users enable notifications from a site.

      • lapcat6 hours ago
        Like... scrolling down the page?

        Anyway, forbidding pages from loading secondary content would break millions of sites, including the most visited sites in the world. That would be equivalent to completely redesigning HTML/JS.

  • rcxdude8 hours ago
    Adblockers are the right kind of tool to solve this problem, but it's hard to do so generically like the pop-ups of yore (which were, to be fair, even more aggravating, since they could come from a website in the background and even try to overwhelm you with more windows than you could close).
    • krackers5 hours ago
      easyist annoyances filter should take care of a lot of these.
  • 8 hours ago
    undefined
  • cadamsdotcom2 hours ago
    Anything so heavily abused deserves to default to off. But good luck convincing Firefox to do that, let alone the others.

    Blocking modal overlays, cookie banners, sticky elements & scroll stealing - by default - would be a killer feature for Ladybird.

    Devs if you’re listening I’d switch to Ladybird in a heartbeat if it did this.

  • kstrauser4 hours ago
    Ummmm… they have? I use Safari with the Wipr ad blocker and don’t remember the last time I saw one. The opposite is more annoying for me. When I try to download my bank statement, their website tries to open it in a popup. It doesn’t work until I remember to tap the little “open the blocked popup” icon.

    I don’t think Safari is magical or anything. I just didn’t know this was a problem anymore.

  • gethly7 hours ago
    i even have popup blocker extension in ff and it's not working well at all.
  • jmclnx8 hours ago
    I noticed the same on a site I have been reading for over 30 years. I am about to abandon that site.

    Hope this issue is solved.

  • jart8 hours ago
    They have solved the popup problem. It's called AI. If I ask Claude to browse the web for me and report back what it finds, then there's no popups, no ads, no newsletters. I'm insulated from all the awful things people do. That's what I love about technology. It always comes along at just the right time to solve the greatest problem people have ever had, which is other people.
    • dwroberts7 hours ago
      These models will start serving ads inline with results soon. All of the major players in this technology are still ad companies
      • jrs2357 hours ago
        Or worse, be [secretly] biased towards sponsored answers/solutions. There's a reason "they" don't want AI to be regulated.
        • Ferret74466 hours ago
          I hate to continue this tangent, but I have to point out that the reason "they" don't want AI to be regulated is because Russia/China having a monopoly on AI is bad. Had we restricted nuclear weapons development, we would not be able to have this conversation.
          • jrs2354 hours ago
            Regulating publicly consumed/available AI doesn't need to restrict private/non-public trained/consumed AI.
    • isodev7 hours ago
      You’re missing the /s right?

      What about what Claude or any LLM bot does with info it randomly finds online? Run local commands you didn’t ask for, visit sites you didn’t expect it to visit? Upload data and files you don’t ask it to upload?

      If you don’t know what I mean, here is a cool talk for you to watch https://media.ccc.de/v/39c3-ai-agent-ai-spy

      • jart5 hours ago
        Everything you say and do with the robot is uploaded into the cloud for someone else's benefit. You'd have to be getting something really good out of using the robot for that to be worth it, and I think that's been the case with me so far, mostly because I'm someone who doesn't really have much in the way of confidential information. The advantage of having a bunch of claudes and geminis running around doing things for me is too much fun to turn down. The best benefit though is just being less lonely, since it's never been easy for me to find other people who care about the set of weird things I'm interested in, which is constantly changing, and even harder to find someone who not only knows but is willing to collaborate too, during all the oddball times of any given day or night I happen to be both productive and awake.
      • wat100007 hours ago
        I mean, don’t give your “search the web and tell me what it says” bot access to local files or commands.
    • chrysoprace7 hours ago
      You often need to verify it though. I've been using Perplexity due to the way it sources the results and presents the sources it generated the answer from, which means that I often still have to make the jump out to the web.