51 pointsby xnxa day ago14 comments
  • jppopea day ago
    I'm not sure of the legality but I definitely appreciate their product. This lawsuit seems odd because google themselves scrape content for their indexes. From what I see SerpApi is really just providing a machine interface that Google themselves refuses to provide users and visibility into SERPs which is also something that users should have available to them.

    I'm probably just being naive though...

    • bluGilla day ago
      Google publishes how to control their bot - with robots.txt. They then obey those instructions. Google also takes some effort to not use all your bandwidth. Google isn't perfect, but they are at least making a "good faith" effort to be nice and this does count in court. Overall most will agree that in general what google does to allow people to find their website is worth the things that google is doing.

      You can of course argue a lot of edge cases if you really want. For the most part I want to say "it isn't worth the argument". In some cases I will take your side if I really have to think about it, but in general the system google has been using mostly works and is mostly an acceptable compromise.

      • khelavastr10 hours ago
        Who says robots.txt is legally binding? Where's the Sherman Antitrust analysis?I'm more confused than before.
        • bluGill4 hours ago
          The courts say. With this as a long standing tradition they are likely to agree.
      • paweldudaa day ago
        But their robots are enabled by default. So it is a form of unsolicited scraping. If I spam millions of email addresses without asking for permission but provide a link to opt-out form, am I the good guy?
        • bluGilla day ago
          At this point everyone knows about robots.txt, so if you didn't opt-out that is your own fault. Opting out of everyone at once is easy, and you get fine grained control if you want it.

          Also most people would agree they are fine with being indexed in general. That is different from email spam where people don't want it.

          • pawelduda21 hours ago
            Looking at SerpApi clients, looks like most companies would agree they are fine with scraping Google. That is different from having your website content stolen and summarized by AI on Google search, which people don't want.
            • bluGill21 hours ago
              The claim is SerApi is not honoring robots.txt, and they are getting far more data from google/more often than needed for an index operation. Or at least that is the best I can make out of the claim in court from the article - I have not read the actual complaint.

              People are generally fine with indexing operations so long as you don't use too much bandwidth.

              Using AI to summarize content is still and open question - I wouldn't be surprised if this develops to some form of "you can index but not summarize", but only time will tell.

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      • hackerbeata day ago
        What's nice about scraping all the content for their own good while killing off websites left and right? Google needs to be sued also.

        Along with all the other AI companies out there, the've committed the biggest theft in human history.

  • This is why I stopped using google wherever possible - they pushed the frontier of useful fair use and copyright precedents and established that things on the public internet displayed to the public without a login mechanism are fair game for scraping. The US supreme court ruled that you have to incorporate authentication and not simply serve your content to the public internet if you want to restrict usage.

    Then they bend over backwards and do the "but not like that!" crap with their legal team and swing their wealth and influence around to screw over other companies and people, and a vast majority of it just vanishes, gets memory holed, with NDAs and out of court settlements, so you never get to see the full scope of harm they inflict unless you're watching like a hawk and catch the headlines before they get disappeared.

    Google needs to be broken up and we need to legislate the dismantling of the current adtech regime, with a privacy and sovereignty respecting digital bill of rights that puts the interests of individual citizens above that of giant corporate blobs and the mass surveillance data industry.

  • bitpusha day ago
    From the filing

    > SerpApi’s answer to SearchGuard is to mask the hundreds of millions of automated queries it is sending to Google each day to make them appear as if they are coming from human users. SerpApi’s founder recently described the process as “creating fake browsers using a multitude of IP addresses that Google sees as normal users.”

  • AstroBena day ago
    > Defendant SerpApi, LLC (“SerpApi”) offers services that “scrape” this copyrighted content and more from Google, using deceptive means to automatically access and take it for free at an astonishing scale and then offering it to various customers for a fee. In doing so, SerpApi acquires for itself the valuable product of Google’s labors and investment in the content, and denies Google’s partners compensation for their works

    this has to be satire. Is Google not the #1 entity guilty of exactly this?

    • jefftka day ago
      No, Google doesn't use deceptive means. They identify their crawler as GoogleBot, and obey robots.txt.
      • Nextgrida day ago
        Google doesn't have to do that now after already having established its own monopoly... just like SerpApi wouldn't have to act deceptively if they had a monopoly on search.
      • AstroBena day ago
        Because they've forced everyone to allow them. They're the internet traffic mafia. Block them and you disappear from the internet

        They abuse this power to scrape your work, summarize it and cut you out as much as possible. Pure value extraction of others' work without equal return. Now intensified with AI

        But yeah, you're right. They're not deceptive

        • bitpusha day ago
          > Because they've forced everyone to allow them.

          nobody is forcing anyone. This is the same argument that people said about google search. Nobody is forcing anyone to use google search, google chrome, or even allow googlebot for scraping.

          Thousands of poeple have switched over to chatgpt, brave/firefox ..

          Your argument sounds like "I dont like Apple's practices, and I'm forced to buy iPhones. No buddy, if you dont like Apple, dont buy their products"

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          • thayne17 hours ago
            > Thousands of poeple have switched over to chatgpt, brave/firefox ..

            If you want people to visit your website, limiting yourself to the "thousands" of people who don't use google isn't really an option.

            > Your argument sounds like "I dont like Apple's practices, and I'm forced to buy iPhones. No buddy, if you dont like Apple, dont buy their products"

            Well, I don't like Apple's or Google's practices, but I basically [1] have to use either iOS or Android.

            [1]: yes there are things like GrapheneOS and librem, but those aren't really practical for most people.

          • AstroBena day ago
            > Your argument sounds like "I dont like Apple's practices, and I'm forced to buy iPhones. No buddy, if you dont like Apple, dont buy their products"

            No, not really. There are alternatives to Apple. Whereas here Google controls the gate to the majority of internet traffic

            For many it's "block Google and your business dies"

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      • jppopea day ago
        What about for their LLM products? We know that OpenAi does not respect the robots.txt file
        • xnxa day ago
          Google uses the same crawler and robots.txt file for training data.
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  • Nextgrida day ago
    > SerpApi deceptively takes content that Google licenses from others

    They have a different definition of "licensing" than most people I guess. Aren't site operators complaining about Google using this "licensed" content in AI overviews... not to mention the scraping for AI model training.

    The pot is calling the kettle black.

    • skybriana day ago
      As far as I know, Google respects robots.txt and doesn't obfuscate their crawlers, so you can easily block them if you want. It seems like an important distinction?
      • Nextgrida day ago
        Google can afford to respect robots.txt because it has a monopoly on search and nobody would consider actually blocking them in said robots.txt anyway.

        SerpApi doesn't have that privilege.

        • skybrian18 hours ago
          Some domains do block Google, often partially. There are some statistics here:

          https://radar.cloudflare.com/ai-insights#ai-user-agents-foun...

        • xnxa day ago
          Google has respected robots.txt from the start.
        • bitpusha day ago
          but SerpApi is not scraping websites, it is sending malicoius requests to google.com.
          • Nextgrida day ago
            SerpApi is scraping Google. The "maliciousness" if the requests is a matter of perspective. Of course Google considers it malicious; that doesn't necessarily make it true.
      • throw-12-16a day ago
        robots.txt is not a legally binding document, nobody needs to actually respect it
      • immibisa day ago
        There's no law that says you have to do that. It used to be a sensible thing to do, in the early internet. In the current internet, obeying robots.txt is a self-handicap and you shouldn't do it.

        DDoS remains illegal regardless of robots.txt.

        • skybrian18 hours ago
          It's rather odd to use words like "should" when you're advocating for disrespecting other people's wishes. There are sometimes reasons not to cooperate, but it seems like a good default.
          • immibis9 hours ago
            The web is now hostile. If you're starting a search engine, everyone else has written a robots.txt that bans you from starting a search engine. You either ignore that, or you abandon your plan to make a search engine.
            • skybrian4 hours ago
              Maybe only ethical choice is not to play? Or to do it the hard way. Scrape what people allow and try to make deals to get more data.
  • kacesensitivea day ago
    SerpApi wouldn't even be a thing if Google offered an equivalent API...
    • AuthErrora day ago
      why does google need to offer it?
    • bitpusha day ago
      Why would Google offer an API? This is similar to saying when Apple sues an employee stealing IP "Nobody would steal the IP if they gave it away for free". The question is - why?
  • sovietmudkipza day ago
    What’s the difference between scraping and malicious scraping? Does google engage in scraping or malicious scraping? Do the AI companies engage in scraping or malicious scraping?
    • jchwa day ago
      Note that I am not defending the merits of Google's lawsuit, but they did describe in this very post what they believe distinguishes their scraping versus SerpApi.

      > Stealthy scrapers like SerpApi override those directives and give sites no choice at all. SerpApi uses shady back doors — like cloaking themselves, bombarding websites with massive networks of bots and giving their crawlers fake and constantly changing names — circumventing our security measures to take websites’ content wholesale. [...] SerpApi deceptively takes content that Google licenses from others (like images that appear in Knowledge Panels, real-time data in Search features and much more), and then resells it for a fee. In doing so, it willfully disregards the rights and directives of websites and providers whose content appears in Search.

      To me this seems... interesting, for sure. I think that Google already set a bad precedent by pulling content from the web directly into its results, and an even worse one by paying websites with user-generated content for said content (while those sites didn't pay the users that actually made the user-generated content, as an additional bitchslap.)

      But it seems like at the very least Google is suggesting that SerpApi is effectively trying to "steal" the work Google did, rather than do the same work themselves. Though I wonder if this is really Google pulling up the ladder behind them a bit, given how privileged of a position they are in with regards to web scraping.

      It's a tough case. I think that something does need to ultimately be done about "malicious" web scraping that ignores robots.txt, but traditionally that sort of thing did not violate any laws, and I feel somewhat skeptical that it will be found to violate the law today. I mean, didn't LinkedIn try this same thing?

      • moralestapiaa day ago
        >bombarding websites with massive networks of bots

        Like GoogleBot?

        And yeah, robots.txt is not enforced by any law.

        I think this is just about dragging SerpApi through a lengthy legal procedure and fees.

    • throw-12-16a day ago
      The size of your legal team.
    • jefftka day ago
      Whether you obey robots.txt (Google does, SerpApi doesn't) seems like an important distinction.
    • xnxa day ago
      Permission
    • bakugoa day ago
      Malicious scraping is when people other than them do it. When they scrape the internet to train their AI, it's "lawful" because they said so.
  • thayne21 hours ago
    If google provided a useable reasonably priced API, then SerpApi wouldn't exist.
  • Related:

    Reddit Accuses 'Data Scraper' Companies of Stealing Its Information

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45695433

    Our Response to Reddit, Inc. vs. SerpApi, LLC: Defending the First Amendment

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45739889

  • SilverElfina day ago
    Google scrapes so what even is this? Beyond that I think it is unreasonable and monopolistic that Google can use all this data (like YouTube) to bolster their AI products but no one else can. It just means the megacorp will keep being megacorp and smaller players are doomed to have to work much harder and get very lucky. It’s not fair competition. So I view scraping Google as necessary for our society.
  • yoink

    * that's the sound of a ladder being yanked up

  • ekjhgkejhgka day ago
    Disgusting behavior by google. Scraping is google's whole business.

    And then pretending that they're fighting for other people's copyright is just the cherry on top of the pile of hypocrisy.

  • throw-12-16a day ago
    Google can eat a bag of dicks.

    Their entire ai model was scraped.