84 pointsby NavinF2 hours ago11 comments
  • TrackerFFan hour ago
    I grew up in the late 80s/early 90s, and came from a rural place with a lot of poverty and at best working class people. We'd be outside all day long - being inside was considered a privilege. Weekdays and weekends.

    Decades later, most of my peers have middle-class jobs. Their kids are barely outside. Their parents are involved with them from morning to evening, or chauffeuring them between sports and other extracurricular activities.

    Interestingly, I've heard from parents that many feel like they're both suffocating and feeling inadequate, at the same time. While many kids, both teens and younger, reporting that they're not getting enough space.

    • 3D30497420an hour ago
      It doesn't even require poverty/rural areas/etc. I grew up in (basically) sub-urban USA to a solidly middle-class family and I was always out wandering around the neighborhood or on my bike.
    • dns_snek37 minutes ago
      > Interestingly, I've heard from parents that many feel like they're both suffocating and feeling inadequate, at the same time. While many kids, both teens and younger, reporting that they're not getting enough space.

      Is that surprising? All of that sounds fully consistent to me when parents suffocate their kids with expectations and activities instead of meeting their actual needs.

      They feel like they're suffocating them because they are, they feel inadequate because deep down they know it's wrong, and kids feel like they're not getting enough space because they aren't.

    • 165944709125 minutes ago
      > We'd be outside all day long - being inside was considered a privilege. Weekdays and weekends.

      Similar, except in a city. On weekends, when an adult may be home, we get sent outside as a form of grounding -- "outside. now." -- or if we watched too much tv/video games, and wouldn't come back inside til dark. No asking what we did, where we went, only that we came back in the same health we left. Not having parents home after school (11-14 y/o) meant after-school cartoon binge for a couple hours, then outside to roam around with other kids that didn't have adults home. We'd get in trouble if they came home and we were playing video games or watching tv.

    • squeefersan hour ago
      > and came from a rural place with a lot of poverty

      > We'd be outside all day long

      > most of my peers have middle-class jobs.

      >Their kids are barely outside.

      wonder what the link is there then?

  • owisdan hour ago
    If you want ideas for what you can do about it, "Let Grow" (founded by the Anxious Generation author and others) provides resources for raising more independent kids and campaigning against anti-kid neighborhoods and overly burdensome neglect laws - https://letgrow.org
  • lm28469an hour ago
    And it also creates permanent adulescents, scared of responsibilities, scared of commitment, scared of exploring. I've seen it countless times with teenagers in my family, they're overgrown babies.
  • nicgrev103an hour ago
    It's 10pm; do you know where your kids are? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LJeBbhPYBs
    • nrhrjrjrjtntbtan hour ago
      10pm is a different animal. Out that late and I dont know where they are? 18+

      (Probably some culutral reference I am missing in this video?)

      • m4ck_12 minutes ago
        It wasn't uncommon for kids under 18 to be out that late just a couple of decades ago.

        In the 90s/early 00's 10pm was like a weekday, school night curfew.

  • CalRobert33 minutes ago
    For a counterexample, come visit Houten, NL (I live here and it's great) where you literally see kids around 10 years old biking independently, sometimes with a football (soccerball) or fishing rod in tow. And this is a pretty wealthy area by most standards.

    Here's a good livestream from my town - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujXqogC2zk4 (I share the livestream because that makes it harder to say it's cherrypicked)

    Or here's a more polished, edited video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-TuGAHR78w

    We literally covered the world in asphalt ribbons of death and then we wonder why kids don't play outside.

    What's crazy is how many kids are killed by drivers even _after_ kids stopped playing outside. It's like if the number of swimmers fell by 90% and drownings went _up_.

    • dirkc31 minutes ago
      I recently had a trip to NL and was very surprised to see jobs for children being advertised there!
      • CalRobert29 minutes ago
        Hah, was it Dirk by any chance? (Give your username)

        There's a lot of kids stocking shelves in the stores here. It's a great way for them to be responsible and earn a few extra euro. I think it's great that the Dutch don't treat their 15 and 16 year olds like babies, like American parents do.

        I just wish this were available to more families.

        • dirkc10 minutes ago
          I was quite surprised to see grocery stores with my name on it :)
  • reedf1an hour ago
    > Around 35% of American families have been investigated by CPS

    What??

    > Fully 50% of Black voters in our poll agreed that allowing a 10-year-old to play unsupervised at a park for a few hours was grounds for a CPS call. 33% of white voters and 37% of Hispanic voters said the same.

    I am speechless. Has so much changed in the 20 odd years since I was a kid? I was playing outside unsupervised from maybe age 9. What honestly are the kids supposed to be scared of?

    • slifin28 minutes ago
      Cars, I nearly got run over as a kid a few times

      Now as an adult I'd be worried about cycling around with cars that would hit me in the chest and not the legs on impact

      Also cars make it very easy for a stranger to pull up and kidnap, parents subconsciously know that and factor it into their decisions

      There was also youth clubs where I grew up and a BMX track and no phones so play was mostly happening outside

      Society is going to continue to degrading as long as debts keep increasing

      Debts will keep increasing because the only way to create new money is everytime someone gets a loan the bank injects the principle into the economy but then expects interest on top so there will never be enough money in the economy for everyone to pay off all their debts

      We'll either get mass debt forgiveness or societal collapse and so far we've opted for societal collapse

      • symbogra22 minutes ago
        The track that the US political economy is on with the feedback loop caused by government backed fixed term fixed interest loans requires an ever increasing LTV, meaning newer entrants in the housing market will have to accept increasingly precarious positions.
    • n4r941 minutes ago
      That is a shocking stat, although I see that the source article only looked at the 20 most populous counties in the US: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8325358/

      I wonder if that causes some selection bias (e.g. density correlating with poverty).

    • kakacikan hour ago
      Not kids, parents are scared, kids have no say unless they are already addicted to gaming, tv or whatever their latest addiction is, and then they themselves don't want to go and just sit and consume.

      Even if the chance something actually happens is terribly low it became unacceptable. Death of any type became unacceptable, so got injuries, bullying is end of the world. Maybe due to having 1-2 kids instead of 10 and seeing occasionally other kids around die from whatever, so what was sort of normalized is shocking now.

      Parenting got much, much harder, expectation of what a good parent is are stratospheric compared to - kid didn't die, you didn't beat him up (too much), didn't rape him and similar level. The more you invest yourself into any activity including parenting the the less you can ignore or accept failure of any sort. And so on.

      I grew up free as a bird too, had a small bicycle and roamed fields and city too, but cars were few and slow ones. Its still possible but even for my kids it has to be outside of roads, luckily we live now next to forest and vineyards with roads closed to regular traffic. So it seems its whole societal change of mindset, not limited to US (although there I believe its the worst due to everything car-centric, few continuous pedestrian walks etc)

      • exitb43 minutes ago
        I think a lot of parenting decisions like this are just made in line with the rest of the society. If you let your 9 year old roam the park by themselves, you run a rather small risk of injuries, death, kidnapping etc. But you run a pretty big risk of them being the only lone 9 year old at the park.
    • IlikeKittiesan hour ago
      > What honestly are the kids supposed to be scared of?

      CPS it seems.

      • nrhrjrjrjtntbtan hour ago
        Call the CPS on them! Why? because they are risking their child having the CPS called on them ... and that is dangerous.
    • mykoan hour ago
      I'm an 80s kid, I was playing outside at age 6 unsupervised / with my friends. I feel like this should be pretty normal and totally agree with your last line:

      What honestly are the kids supposed to be scared of?

      • lotsofpulpan hour ago
        I teach my kids their biggest risk is a driver distracted by their phone in a vehicle with a hood height at or above the kids’ head height.
        • walthamstow38 minutes ago
          Accurate. Oddly enough on this side of the pond most people who would not want to raise their kids in the US would mention school shootings. The real, ubiquitous, daily danger is massive cars and lazy drivers.
          • Hendrikto23 minutes ago
            Just because you have even bigger problems in the US, that does not mean that is isn’t cause for concern to be the school shooting capital of the world by an enormous margin.

            The US have more school shootings than the rest of the world combined. It is not unfounded or irrational to be concerned.

            • walthamstow7 minutes ago
              I live in Britain, not the US. I'm talking about the opinions of Britons and Europeans of the US.

              My point is it still a very rare thing even in the most common place in the world. The weight of school shootings in people's minds is more emotional than statistical. It's a heinous crime to kill a child.

              Careless drivers kill way more people and they do it every day. What's irrational to me is people's lack of concern for the cars.

  • komali2an hour ago
    > When teenagers aren’t trusted to walk over to a friend’s house or play in the park, when they almost never have a part-time job where they can earn a paycheck and meet expectations that aren’t purely artificial, then I think it’s much harder for them to have a realistic, non-algorithm-driven worldview and concrete life goals they can work toward.

    This, and the car-centric design of the American suburb, I think are leading to an increasingly alienated generation of kids. I grew up in suburbs and I couldn't even safely bike to my friend's house because the sidewalk would randomly end before arriving at his neighborhood, and the stroad next to it was at 45mph speed limit (thus in Texas: 60mph) and mostly filled with massive pickup trucks that probably couldn't even see me. So, my options before my parents got home were to play WoW and browse 4chan or do my homework, and if I did my homework before they got home they wouldn't believe me and would make me do some kind of schoolwork so they could see it happening, so basically for 4 years the majority of my free time was spent playing WoW and posting on 4chan.

    Imo this resulted in me developing an "internet personality" aka "being a piece of shit." I was into manosphere stuff, mildly zenophobic, incredibly transphobic, and insufferably cynical. Getting to college and seeing the disgust on people's faces when I'd drop a 4chan joke was a complete culture shock to me. Took me a good 2 years to adjust to "normal society," by then I also had to overcome a reputation as an asshole.

    I can't even imagine what it's like for kids like me these days now that there's full on weaponized Discords trying to convince them to shoot up schools for the lulz. At least on 4chan that kind of stuff got banned or mocked.

    • rightbyte3 minutes ago
      Glad to hear you figured it out. I somewhat identify eventhough I didn't go as deep.

      > if I did my homework before they got home they wouldn't believe me and would make me do some kind of schoolwork so they could see it happening, so basically for 4 years the majority of my free time was spent playing WoW and posting on 4chan.

      Oh I hate this. Busywork. Also I think you and I got incentivized to play as much computer games as possible due to the arbitrary limitations of it and constant fear of being pulled off to some busywork. It was like a never ending battle ...

      I think many parents don't realize that "doing the laundry" on command is like 10x the work of doing it when you please. You can't relax after school.

    • ensocodean hour ago
      Probably you won't be the freak anymore in today's online society as most of the others do the same
    • cons0le18 minutes ago
      >this resulted in me developing an "internet personality" aka "being a piece of shit.

      I'm so glad you got out man. Seriously. You climbed out of a hole that many can't even see.

    • squeefersan hour ago
      > so basically for 4 years the majority of my free time was spent playing WoW and posting on 4chan.

      because the sidewalk was next to a busy road? sounds like a bit of a reach

      • CalRobert30 minutes ago
        Aside from the fact that drivers have been known to mount sidewalks (especially while sending a text), the real problem is intersections, and crossing said stroads. When there's 8 lanes of Dodge Rams, Chevy Silverados, and F-250's with hoods that are taller than your head you're putting a great deal of trust in the red lamp overhead to actually stop them from killing you.
      • CrossVRan hour ago
        If you're in a suburb what else is there to do? Going to any interesting spots to hang out with friends involve asking your parents to bring you there with the family car and then arranging a strict timetable on when to pick you up again.
      • nrhrjrjrjtntbtan hour ago
        sidewalk ended apparently. i am imagining some super hostile urban planning. like did a cyclist cheat with the planner's spouse? is there not another route?
        • lotsofpulp29 minutes ago
          Streetview almost any US suburb. There often is not a way to safely cross a 60ft+ wide road with a 40mph speed limit (which means large vehicles with distracted drivers are driving 50mph+.

          Almost all businesses are located on these wide roads, and neighborhoods basically become islands for the kids. It’s especially bad in the winter, because it gets dark quicker, and crossing that 60ft+ wide 40mph+ road gets dicey even as an adult.

  • chiefalchemistan hour ago
    The constrain isn’t merely financial, it’s broader than that. Teenagers are less free because adults and society have bulldozed the adversity out of teen lives. This sheltering is creating generations that are more - not less - fragile.

    Generations that know nothing but comfort. They are prisoners of unrealistic expectations of what real life is like.

    • TheOtherHobbes16 minutes ago
      The adversity is very much there, but it's all emotional and social. What's missing is (mild) physical adversity, and self-directed play and exploration.

      Mild somewhat-dangerous-but-not-really play teaches that actions and decisions have consequences, and if you make a mistake it hurts - maybe a lot.

      The world is a dangerous place, but some element of risk is both unavoidable and exciting. And it's safe (more or less) to explore and take risks.

      When the stress is all emotional and social - high school bullying, status games, cliques and groups, gender wars, random adult authoritarianism - it teaches you that dissent is forbidden and you must conform to the group or you will be punished by it.

      You never get the lessons about autonomy and exploration. You're physically comfortable but emotionally underdeveloped with a limited sense of individual agency. There's a fair chance you'll have social PTSD and confuse individuality with permanent rebellion. And your natural state will be permanently-triggered rage about something.

    • A_D_E_P_Tan hour ago
      I don't think that's it.

      There's definitely a kind of frenetic adversity in the whole college admissions process, at least for kids who are inclined to go that route. If anything, it has gotten much worse over the past 30 years; it's much more stressful than it used to be, and it's easy for teens to imagine that every little thing carries high stakes.

      If by "adversity" you mean helping the family put food on the table, I certainly agree that there's less of that. Today we have more weird, more detached, and less rational forms of adversity.

      • lotsofpulp44 minutes ago
        I think it’s a broader awareness of a K shaped socioeconomic trajectory, that the odds of an upward trajectory drop considerably if you don’t follow the standard path into a top 20 university, metro, etc. as economic opportunities continue to agglomerate.
    • smeeger4 minutes ago
      teens experience more adversity now than before. social and existential adversity.
    • ensocodean hour ago
      > Generations that know nothing but comfort.

      sad but true

      > They are prisoners of unrealistic expectations of what real life is like.

      what is real life like? I guess real is what parents demonstrate, not?

    • A4ET8a8uTh0_v242 minutes ago
      << Generations that know nothing but comfort. They are prisoners of unrealistic expectations of what real life is like.

      Maybe? I am giving my kid a lot of comfort, because I see how almost everything is stacked against her future. If the unrealistic expectations exist, it is from our ruling class that we simply accept it:D

      just sayin'

  • password54321an hour ago
    [flagged]
    • A_D_E_P_Tan hour ago
      Who are "they" and what is their aim? Don't be afraid. What's the worst that can happen if you speak plainly?
  • aleksandrm42 minutes ago
    I'm sorry, but this is a bullshit article.
    • ForceBru26 minutes ago
      Care to elaborate? Why do you think it's bullshit?
  • starsky411an hour ago
    This remind me of that saying - no original version but it was like: tough times makes tough people, soft times makes soft people. And I hope it’s not true. But indeed the more choices you have in life, the harder it gets to chose the right thing to do.
    • actionfromafaran hour ago
      In aggregate, tough times make people malnourished, alcoholic, traumatized, lower IQ, apathetic, aggressive. In no particular order or combination.
      • kakacikan hour ago
        Look at US during late 40s / 50s. Do you think your definition is valid for those times en masse? (apart from the fact that most of those markers slowly improved over time due to overall progress).

        Same would be valid for western Europe, eastern part got fucked up by soviets pushing communism and related terror left and right.

    • gherkinnn16 minutes ago
      Why can't this meme die? It is so obviously rubbish. Good times allow for a people to divert more energy to specialisation and growth and might and art and then displace the "hardened" people.
    • komali2an hour ago
      Good times make soft men, bad times make hard men. I never quite understood what the implication was and I always questioned the historical accuracy because no part of history is so easily defined as "good time" or "bad time."
      • everdrive33 minutes ago
        Like basically every truism, it's a broad generalization and when you pick it apart you find all sorts of cases where the terms are loosely defined or else the truism just doesn't fit. There is at least something to be said here, and this is something of an adaptation of Ibn Khaldun's work on the concept of "asabiyyah" in the Muqaddima. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun#al-Muqaddima_and_t...

        From the Wikipedia summary:

        "The work is based around Ibn Khaldun's central concept of aṣabiyyah, translated as "group cohesiveness" or "solidarity".[41] This social cohesion arises spontaneously in tribes and other small kinship groups; it can be intensified and enlarged by a religious ideology. Ibn Khaldun's analysis looks at how this cohesion carries groups to power but contains within itself the seeds – psychological, sociological, economic, political – of the group's downfall, to be replaced by a new group, dynasty or empire bound by a stronger (or at least younger and more vigorous) cohesion."

      • A4ET8a8uTh0_v2an hour ago
        I think the quote itself indicates something of pre-internet outlook, where one's world was more localized. From that perspective, "good time"/"bad time" is more tied to one's geography ( and by extention, tribe ) more than anything else. If true, then "bad time" is simply war, famine, pestilence from more common set of maladies. And if the outlook is more local, the saying does start to make a lot of sense, because our constraints define how we approach life in general. Not to search very far, depression crash made a generation of Americans very wary of trading stocks.
      • wongarsuan hour ago
        There's the other half, which is often only implied: soft men make bad times, hard men make good times. It's supposed to be cyclical: good times -> soft people -> bad times -> hard people -> good times. Usually directly followed by "back in my days things were tough, but kids these days are just weak"

        I'm not sure how it's supposed to work out. The US is arguably currently under the control of the baby boomers, who were brought up in good times. And those good times were brought on by the two generations before them who were brought up in tough times (two world wars, depression, etc)? But that feels tenuous at best

        • gherkinnn13 minutes ago
          If there was any truth do this then Russia (arguably a "hard place" for most of its history) would be brimming with strong men (it is always "men" in these discussions) who then create which good times exactly?
          • integralid4 minutes ago
            >it is always "men" in these discussions

            This obviously means "human" in this context.

            But of course this saying is just a meme at best, it doesn't work like that in reality. In fact, good times make strong men just like good childhood makes strong adults.

        • 3D30497420an hour ago
          > But that feels tenuous at best

          Yeah, I rather doubt that the direction of history can so easily be summarized by good/bad times and soft/hard men.

      • louthyan hour ago
        It isn't about a particular time in history, it's about the individual. An individual who suffers hardships often has to endure to overcome said hardships. That makes the individual more resilient and more able to deal with future hardships.

        I think the phrasing can come across as a bit macho, which I don't think is the point. It's about resilience.

      • ramon15642 minutes ago
        To understand is to suffer
    • hshdhdhj444440 minutes ago
      How did we end up in a world where the stupidest memes are considered insightful.
      • berdario9 minutes ago
        Not only stupid, but also a nazi meme...

        Besides the appeal of "though people", the idea that we're also in a cycle, of which the current phase is the worst one, is also basically the Kali Yuga concept, popularised by openly nazi figures like Julius Evola and Savitri Devi

        If people are unhappy about their current society, they'd be better off learning about the economic causes, rather than esoteric memes.