So in the Dutch tax system there is no difference between realized and unrealized gain. As such it doesn't matter when you buy/sell your investments. It doesn't impact your tax burden. The effect you get is that everyone's wealth just slowly erodes away, just like with inflation (unless your yield outpaces that).
But with this new law that all might change.
[1] https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/summary/31612...
I don't have data readily to hand (and Draghi probably mentions this in the report, I can't remember), but anecdotally based on what I hear from many of my European friends, Europeans basically keep their savings in bank savings accounts. That means that there is less investment capital floating around, which in turn means that the tiny fraction that finds its way into innovation is in turn greatly diminished. Europeans are dependent on bank loans for funding, and banks want to see assets as security for their loans.
Policies like this would further disincentivize Europeans to invest in their own stock markets, further damaging the ability of Europeans to innovate.
USA is not much different. The wealthiest 10% of the U.S. population holds the vast majority of stock market wealth. Recent data shows this group owns around 90-93% of all stocks, with the top 1% controlling about half of the total household equity.
Many people hold cash in savings to prepare buying a house, paying for a child's college and more. IMHO, there is also less short-term need to invest your money as an adult.
If you're happy with your job and don't need the extra money (or risk), then why invest in the stock market?
Because parking money in a savings account essentially erodes its value over time due to inflation. It’s safer, sure, but it’s a safe way to be guaranteed to lose money over time.
Equity investing is essentially the only way for savings to outpace inflation.
The value erosion isn't significant in the short term, especially if people spend most of what they earn.
In your 20s and 30s, the time horizon for the cash is about 10-15 years (saving up to buy a house).
In your 30s and 40s, maybe good time to have equity investments, but perhaps that extra cash just goes into the mortgage or college savings funds.
Frankly, investing in equities in your 20s and 30s is easily the best time to do it. You let the compounding of growth happen over the decades, not so much later in life.
Lack of education IMHO is a huge part. Crypto has way more education around how to invest than equities investment. If people are investing, many are choosing crypto.
> Frankly, investing in equities in your 20s and 30s is easily the best time to do it. You let the compounding of growth happen over the decades, not so much later in life.
I agree, but for many people in their 20s and 30s, there just isn't much cash left over to invest, especially in Europe with high taxes and mandatory social security funds and pensions.
More education around investing in crypto? I think we must be exposed to some very different parts of the internet. Investing in boring index funds are very widely spread around these days. Might not be exciting, and I guess there isn’t really something to sell (unlike crypto), so perhaps that’s part of the reason.
- https://finance.yahoo.com/news/almost-20-gen-z-investors-164... - https://www.gemini.com/blog/gemini-survey-finds-more-than-ha...
At the end of the day, investing in an ETF for 10 years isn't going to move the needle much. but catching the right crypto wave will have a larger impact on their life.
yeah. that is my point: for many people, "double [your spare] money" means going from $1 to $2...
Tech (and finance) workers have always had a surplus of wages enabling a comfortable life and plenty left over for investment. Personally, my 'worst' year investing my wages is when I only saved 50%. Currently, I save 70% of my after-tax income. As a result, "double your money" is a very meaningful number.
But if your wages are closer to the average stagnating wage-growth that doesn't keep up with inflation, double $0 or double $1 isn't meaningful.
So it doesn't go down, but the gains are so small it's kinda pointless. Of course, those who can save a lot every year get compounding benefits quite fast, but is a class that is becoming more rare every year passing.
Buying the right lotto tickets will have a larger impact too, but that’s called gambling, not investing. As someone who has just invested in ETFs, 10 years has been plenty to more than double my investment. It moves the needle substantially.
If your income is closer to average (and stagnating inflation), there isn't much money to double.
When you’re in your 20s though, there doesn’t need to be a lot. You’ve got the magic of compound interest to work for you.
I’m sure you’ve heard the statistic, but $100/mo invested over 40 years is worth a million dollars. $100/mo isn’t particularly a lot.
Some countries have wealth taxes - but they are usually flat or scale with wealth, not the yearly increase in wealth. Note that currently NL does de facto have a wealth tax in Box 3 system - shares are presumed to have a fictional fixed yield of around 5-6% per year on which they charge you income tax, so it works out to about 2% wealth tax.
Real estate taxes.
> not the yearly increase in wealth.
Real estate taxes.
What about stocks or crypto (the assets this new law targets)? They can have wild value fluctuations in a year. If your crypto or startup's options have +1M paper gain this year and turn worthless the next year, is it fair to ask people to cough up some 300-500k of real cash in tax?
It's still a tax on wealth. So you just can't use this argument (the argument that we dont tax anything based on wealth and therefore is justification not to do it now).
> is it fair to ask people to cough up some 300-500k of real cash in tax?
I actually disagree that we should tax anything on asset value. Yes, RE is illiquid and thus has "stable" values. What's worse is that the value is tied to appraised values (and potentially government imposed caps) which you have no (or limited) control over.
In the US, certain traders can elect to mark to market [1].
My home's property taxes operate this way. The county calculates the current value of my home and charges me a % of that in taxes every year.
> The bill regarding Box 3 introduces two main categories of taxation: capital growth tax and capital gains tax. The capital growth tax will apply to most assets, taxing both realised and unrealised returns, including appreciation in value and income from assets like shares, cryptocurrencies, and savings. Exchange results on bank balances in currencies other than EUR will also be taxed.
And normally unrealized capital gains on these sorts of assets aren't taxed.
The article indicates that the Dutch government has decided to treat startups and real estate under the bucket "capital gains", and stuff under "capital growth".
So for an more informal standpoint, the title is a reasonable way to summarize what's happening to the layish person.
But in the Netherlands, the overall home ownership rate is still about 70 percent (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/ilc_lvho02__c... might need to drill down a little).
In the US it's 65 percent.
Carve outs for home owners are some of the most understandable political strategies across the developed world.
Regardless, I assume the logic behind this exception is that while you can easily sell a portion of your holdings of publicly traded stocks to cover your annual tax burden, you can't sell a portion of a house. You could of course finance, but that's going to disproportionately benefit lenders.
Box 3 on real estate only come in play for home 2+, and rental properties.
(Submitted title was "Netherlands to start taxing unrealized capital gains yearly from 2028")
i.e, As an employee you get stock options, which you exercise when you leave the startup. Then long before the company has a liquidity event the FMV shoots up because the business is doing well. How do you as a wage worker pay the taxes on your paper riches without a way to sell your shares?
Remember London and Amsterdam have extremely strong finance industry lobbying, and that shows up in their lawmaking.
Checkout what happened at Uber [0].
My cousin at Aurora borrowed money for his tax bill on IPO. I don't know the final numbers, but I hope he at least broke even.
Real examples include: $GRAB, $AUR, $UBER
[0] - https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/28/nearly-200-uber-employees-su...
Everyone working for a startup knows it may be 5 years to a liquidity event. We're all big boys, we work on uncertainty and expectation. If the government changes the rules halfway through, it's pretty brain-damaged to blame the beancounters for hoodwinking the employees, and not using their magic oracular powers to predict how the laws would change under their feet.
More to the point, however, I think if 2 years is insufficient notice to get your tax situation in order w/r/t employee stock options, either your finances are enough of a mess, or you're frankly just so stupid, that you would not be helped much more with 5 years, or even 10 years, of advance notice. And at that point, you (the poster, not the hypothetical hapless employee) are just arguing that the government should never change its tax policy, which is just absurd.
Skimming the article I couldn’t tell whether that’s the case here.
If not, it seems like it would have pretty bad implications for the average person who isn’t super wealthy but who are trying to build wealth.
Ouch. I suppose this is supposed to combat the trend of share buybacks over dividends. Gonna seriously suck to be anyone Norwegian and having to sell stocks to pay for taxes on your unrealized gains.
Also if the euro dives as well during inflation its gonna be painful.
In theory, capital gains should average out over time. But in practice, I think an increasing amount of wealth is being held and not realized over many decades.
It doesn’t help anyone that a few billion $ of gains will be taxed eventually if that is so far into the future that most citizens alive today will have passed away by then.
It means they will need to sell their assets in order to pay this tax and only rich people will be able to afford holding onto assets long enough to become very rich.
It’s stupid, regressive and the Netherlands will learn a great lesson. The other thing that makes me laugh is that no other taxes are going down so this is a straight up tax hike on top of every other the Dutch pay.
Most of my stocks are kinda volatile, so by paying taxes on unrealized gain I am taking much higher risk for owning them every year I don't sell. I would literally be paying taxes on money I don't own yet and could easily lose at the first mayor market upset.
The capital gain is simply the sale price minus the cost basis, which might be a loss.
So if you've paid unrealized capital gains taxes along the way, you either get credit for those taxes already paid (and possibly get a refund if you've overpaid) or they're simply added to the cost basis.
I know we have a lot of communists in Europe (and on HN) who want to run that stupid experiment again, but even in Europe it’s a fringe view.
Many people will have heard about the Buy Borrow Die strategy by now. In case not, it's basically where you don't sell an asset (and thus have to pay taxes on the gain). You use it as collateral for a loan and just spend the laon while the asset continues to appreciate (hopefully) faster than the interest rate. What's particularly gross about this is that many asets in many countries can be inherited by children on what's called a stepped up basis, meaning the base value for determining any capital gains taxes resets to the current market value when the owner dies. This is a massive tax break for the wealthy.
Companies have their own version of this. This has been somewhat (but not entirely) addressed in the US tax code now but it used to be that foreign corporate profits did not incur US corporate taxes as long as the money wasn't repatriated, meaning it stays overseas. But you know what you can do? That's right. Borrow money used those foreign profits as collateral and wait long enough for the US government to give you a tax holiday or to otherwise change the rules (which they did).
IMHO borrowing money against an asset should be realizing a gain and borrowing against foreign profits should be repatriating those profits.
Some will argue how you can't tax unrealized gains or it's not fair, we do it all the time. They're called property taxes.
Profit shifting is still a big problem. This is where, for example, tech companies would sell ads and services in the UK at "cost" to their Irish subsidiary, who would make all the profits. Almost nothing in UK profits where the tax rate is higher. Transfer pricing is (generally) illegal. Profit shifting isn't. What's the difference? Yes.
I think the EU and the US in particular need to start doing what I call profit apportionment, meaning if 50% of your revenue is booked in the US then 50% of your worldwide profits are taxable in the US.
You might say "they'll hide profits in subsidiaries" but really this is a solved problem already. We ahve ways of dealing with subsidiaries that are at arms length or not. We also have financial reporting to stock markets and there's really no reason tax authorities couldn't use published financial statements as a basis for taxation.
Gosh, that hopefully is doing a lot for you sentence lol. Risk based economies function on that "hopefully". To phrase this another way, "if you borrow money against an asset, invest it in the economy, and make more than the interest in returns, you can avoid selling the asset to cover the loan", which sounds a whole lot more sane. It's a bit scary to imagine a world in which borrowing against an asset could not be profitable as that would mean that all investment in the economy would halt, no?
I'm not even against this tax fwiw but you're glossing over some major details in how that tax deferral works. The major issue is how cap gains is handled on death.
> What's particularly gross about this is that many asets in many countries can be inherited by children on what's called a stepped up basis, meaning the base value for determining any capital gains taxes resets to the current market value when the owner dies. This is a massive tax break for the wealthy.
The ability to borrow against an asset is not a loophole.
Why is this necessary when the spending of the borrowed money is itself taxed?
Do you have a reference for this?
Any sort of gift or inheritance transfers the cost basis as far as I know.
> The tax basis of property acquired by a beneficiary from someone who dies is ordinarily the property's fair market value at the date of the decedent's death.
[1]: https://www.fidelity.com/learning-center/personal-finance/wh...
They are replacing it with a much worse and untested economic policy - taxing unrealized capital gains every year. Not a big deal for relatively stable assets (real estate etc), but can explode in your face if you're into any risky volatile stuff (stocks, options, crypto) - they can crash next year, but your tax bill won't. Lack of liquidity can get you as well - you may have huge gains on paper, but for various reasons unable to sell in a reasonable timeframe and come up with equally huge amount of cash for the tax office - we're talking probably 30-50% tax here vs 2% under the old system. Double taxation if you have US passport - you're going to have to please both tax systems or pay double the tax.
The outcome I'd guess would be an exodus of the rich / upper middle class, and then they either scrap it or tighten further with exit taxes. Oh and they're also scrapping the coveted "30% ruling" for expats. Probably can forget about ever being able to FIRE in Netherlands.
https://www.loyensloeff.com/insights/news--events/news/legis...
There’s a bizarre silliness to implementing this compared the relative ease of just increasing capital gains taxes (accrued capital gains are already tracked and reported!) to match income. Will just be a massive jobs program for the bean counters and consultants.
As someone living somewhat Netherlands adjacent, I will happily welcome all Dutch entrepreneurs and investors who wish to grow our local economy instead and not be forced to sell chunks of their company to the state over time.
If this is actually implemented, the Dutch are toast.
- FDR
(Spoiler alert: The rich always act like victims and whine about having to move.)
Time to update your priors.
If some populations do this, as recently happened in Switzerland, they will likely avoid uprisings.
The top 10% of taxpayers contribute 72% of all income tax, so 90% of them aren't really contributing a lot, so per tax payer it's not a lot.
The overall amount is staggering, yes.
If anything it seems inefficiencies tend to occur when people interfere with the government funding things, like CA high speed rail having their federal funding appear and disappear erratically depending on who's in power, throwing off all the construction plans.