36 pointsby doener2 months ago9 comments
  • octaane2 months ago
    Europeans have still not forgotten the impact of WW2. Musk sieg heiling on live TV (twice!!!) is not something they take lightly. Tesla sales of cratered over there, rightfully so, because of his completely unforced error.
    • bamboozled2 months ago
      It's almost like the world isn't a joe rogan podcast
    • baiac2 months ago
      I’m European and nobody cares about WW2. References to that period of time do not go beyond punchlines. I have no idea why Tesla sales are cratering but this isn’t it.
      • whynotmaybe2 months ago
        • baiac2 months ago
          Have you even clicked the article?

          > T Online has now reported that bots manipulated the survey, with 253,000 votes originating from just two U.S.-based IP addresses

      • claudiug2 months ago
        I'm European and I care. Keep you ignorance for yourself.
      • karmakurtisaani2 months ago
        If you're not a total doofus, you should be able to look around you and see how things still today are worse off because of the nazis than they would have been without them. But we have doofi among us, so you might just be one.
      • lawn2 months ago
        Yes, it's clear you have no idea. You can be ignorant in Europe too.
      • tim3332 months ago
        Maybe it depends on your age group but a lot of people do care. They gassed my grandfather's brother for example. It's not that ancient history.

        Also fascist WW2 tanks rolling into Ukraine is somewhat reminiscent of the phenomenon of modern fascist tanks rolling into Ukraine.

    • t1E9mE7JTRjf2 months ago
      [flagged]
      • esperent2 months ago
        It's weird when you see an account like this on HN (a tech site) and when you check their comment history the only comments more than a few words long are in defense of American right wing political talking points.

        I might even say it's suspicious.

        • fzeroracer2 months ago
          It definitely feels like there's been an uptick in the past few months of far right brigading. There's been a number of times where I've seen incredibly low effort and inflammatory posts flag-killed from recent accounts only to be vouched for and revived.
        • t1E9mE7JTRjf2 months ago
          [flagged]
      • maddmann2 months ago
        I was in Italy over the summer and they seemed to universally detest musk, and trump there. So much, in fact, that it is embarrassing to be a US citizen in Europe with these fools “representing” the US.
        • t1E9mE7JTRjf2 months ago
          did you meet people who base buying a car off of who the car company owner supported in a foreign (to them) election?

          or would you say these were ordinary people or more the kind of people paying attention to international events? (genuine question).

          I get that to an american it's contentious, but imagine not buying a toyota car or samsung phone because the powerful head of that company gave huge amounts to a conservative politician in their country. That's how I look at elon/trump in the us, and given I never hear normal people (not reddit/hackernews/guardian) talking about ANY of this stuff, I'd guess I'm not alone.

          • rkomorn2 months ago
            I'm in Portugal and I have definitely met people outside of tech who talk about Musk in ways that I'm pretty sure mean they would not consider buying Teslas.

            Same applies to some friends in France.

            I assume the topic comes up more with me because I lived in the US for a long time before moving back to Europe, but I'm guessing their opinions are there even if the topic doesn't come up as often in conversations with other locals, for example.

          • maddmann2 months ago
            I’m not going to generalize, but I already told you, I met people who had a profound dislike of elon/trump and I don’t think I saw a single Tesla during that trip. Maybe Italy is a different case since they have a passion for high quality cars, so makes more sense that there would be other reasons for them avoiding Tesla.
          • Timon32 months ago
            You're forgetting that Musk is trying to influence national politics the world over. He's injecting money into far right movements in multiple European nations and keeps commenting on legal and judicial decisions in many countries, often complaining if things don't go the way the far right wants - all while using his influence over his companies to spread his views, like when he desperately wanted people to believe in the "white genocide".

            I don't think the Toyota CEO is trying to have anywhere close to this much influence over most European countries, and I'm honestly not aware of anyone else doing so. For years, Musk has been behaving like a literal Bond villain.

          • jeromegv2 months ago
            Considering he is a fascist, makes nazi sign, spent hundreds of millions of the money he made to elect a mad man, yes, that’s enough to influence me not to buy their cars.

            Do I know who the CEOs of all car companies vote for? No.

            But also none of them spent so much capital electing Trump and threatened to destroy Canada’s sovereignty so I guess I make my consumer choices with the info I have.

  • yanhangyhy2 months ago
    > Meanwhile, Tesla's Chinese competitor BYD (BYDDY), which sells a mix of pure EVs and hybrids, reported sales jumping 207% to 17,470 units sold in Europe. Another major China rival, SAIC, saw sales climb 46% to just under 24,000 vehicles sold.

    From January to October this year, BYD has already sold nearly 140,000 units in Europe, an astonishing increase. Even setting aside people’s personal feelings about Musk, the main reason is probably that Tesla no longer has much competitive advantage. The BYD he once openly mocked with “have you seen their cars?” and laughed about by end up completely defeating Tesla in the European market

    Personally, the one I most want to buy in the future is the Yangwang series, even though it’s very expensive. Or the series that comes with the drone feature.

    • plqbfbv2 months ago
      > the main reason is probably that Tesla no longer has much competitive advantage

      Yep, I think Tesla simply squandered its clear advantage and slowed research and innovation, while everybody else was accelerating.

      I sat in one of the first BYD a couple years back, and for all the mocking of Tesla quality standards, it was a rattle fest, I thought I'd never buy one for sure. But if there's one thing I really appreciate about China is the ability to iterate stupid fast and make it totally about business, zero emotions. Car rattles too much? We'll fix it.

      Forward to last year when I took an Uber in London which was a BYD Seal: dead silent, spacious and good looking, and they keep improving the hardware. The brand is back on my possible next-buy list.

    • jemmyw2 months ago
      The BYD cars are starting to look quite nice too. I saw one the other day that must have been a Seal and thought "that's a cool looking car what is it? huh a BYD"
  • static_motion2 months ago
    You would never guess this while driving around in my small European country. The amount of Teslas is baffling and I still see very new ones every day.
    • FranzFerdiNaN2 months ago
      Compared to the number of Chinese cars i see their numbers seem really small though.
  • m4632 months ago
    I would mention a few non-political things:

    - their cars keep on "deprecating" controls, such as turn signal and drive select stalks, mechanical door releases, defog, dashboard and other critical controls. unsafe and a cheapo move.

    - the model y looks ugly now, especially lighting. the older version looks nice, and was a best-seller.

    - cybertruck

    all of this just hands market share over to the competition, which has appeared.

    • WheatMillington2 months ago
      Tesla's stale line-up is extremely boring compared to the competition. Americans don't have access to the broad market of EV's due to their extreme market protectionism.
    • pcchristie2 months ago
      They put the drive select stalk back after feedback, and they never had a dashboard on the 3 and Y (I have a Model 3 and it works fine without one).

      Can't speak for defog or mechanical door release, I haven't noticed either, but would be shocked if they are gone as they both seem like they'd be legally required. Defog in particular would be bizarre to remove from a car, especially given it's just a mode of the A/C.

      • m4632 months ago
        from what I can tell the s, x, 3 and truck have no stalks. The y has a turn signal stalk. I read there might be an official way to get a turn signal stalk on a 3.

        my opinion: a decent car would have a decent set of stalks with dedicated controls at your fingertips, like various light controls, various wiper controls including non-ai interval, turn signals, drive select. and a dashboard for status, and other settings (not critical controls) on center screen.

    • otterley2 months ago
      I actually like the new Model Y's styling. Taste is personal.

      I still won't buy one, but not because I think it's ugly.

  • grugagag2 months ago
    Stock at all time high makes no sense.
    • stackghost2 months ago
      TSLA has long been disconnected from any semblance of fundamentals.
      • lz4002 months ago
        What would it take to reconnect there? evidence that FSD and robots are vaporware?
        • thatguy09002 months ago
          Evidence that he's going to stop getting boatloads of government money probably
    • amunicio2 months ago
      Investors have a lot of faith in Elan because of his track record of achieving very unlikely challenges (design and mass produce electric cars, design and launch rockets, ...).

      The problem is that a lot of its supporters and investors cannot distinguish between solving complicated problems (the ones Elon Musk excels at) and complex problems (the ones Elon Musk is trying solve now: FSD, robotics, etc...).

      For reference, a complicated problem is one that you can break down into pieces and solve each individual piece within some tolerance and as a result solve the whole problem. For example, how do I build a rocket that can get X kg of load at a given orbit or how do I design an electric car to transport 4 people 200 miles.

      Complex problems are problems you cannot break into pieces and plan for before hand, usually because you have unknown unknows and you have a lot of feedback loops (when you change something it changes something else you though you had already solved). This are the types of challenges Elon is taking on now: FSD, robotics, etc...

      • spwa42 months ago
        What I thought was very revealing though is that Blue Origin's New Glenn mission will actually beat SpaceX to Mars. In fact no SpaceX rocket has ever done anything in relation to Mars.

        And starlink is nothing but an evolution of many networks that already exist, most famously Iridium, but couldn't make it work commercially due to satellite cost.

        Meanwhile the Blue Origin launched ESCAPADE satellites will establish a 24/7 telecommunications link between the Mars surface and Earth, in addition to their research goals, in September 2027.

    • nutjob22 months ago
      Tesla stock never did.
      • 2 months ago
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  • stackghost2 months ago
    It's baffling to me that TSLA shareholders can see their CEO's antics (Nazi salute on global television, DOGE, splitting time between idk how many companies, being erratic on Twitter, committing securities fraud ("funding secured")), and still decide that this clown is the right man to lead the company.

    I just can't get myself into a mindset where that makes sense.

    • bobthepanda2 months ago
      TSLA has been a meme stock disconnected from fundamentals for a while and literally the only reason is Elon. If Elon wasn't CEO and there was just a normal person then they'd probably be priced a lot closer to the P/E ratio of a regular automaker (~5 instead of 288)
      • lesuorac2 months ago
        What do you think OpenAI's valuation would be without Sam?

        I think there are other people that can do Elon's role but definitely rare.

  • nutjob22 months ago
    The two likely factors are Chinese EV imports and Tesla association with hard right wing and Nazi ideology in buyers minds.
    • k4rli2 months ago
      The simple reason is that the product is not good. Nothing to do with ideologies.
      • otterley2 months ago
        I think the product is good. But, I won't buy one until Elon either admits to and apologizes for all of his past bad acts, or has no control over the company anymore. Unfortunately, I think neither is likely.
      • octaane2 months ago
        I disagree. It has everything to do with ideologies. He seig heiled on TV twice; that's not something they will ignore.
      • whynotmaybe2 months ago
        It's both for many people.
  • N_Lens2 months ago
    While Musk's antics and politics definitely have a part to play, it's also obvious that Tesla hasn't innovated nearly as much and their cars are becoming outdated in an EV landscape of constant innovation. Their last big play (The Cybertruck) was horrendous both in design and execution.
  • thegrim332 months ago
    Surely any time their sales has good growth somewhere, you'd be sharing similar stories about that positive news, right? Surely.