144 pointsby Venn117 hours ago16 comments
  • ndiddy14 hours ago
    It's a shame that this didn't end up going anywhere. When Qualcomm was doing their press stuff prior to the Snapdragon X launch, they said that they'd be putting equal effort into supporting both Windows and Linux. If anyone here is running Linux on a Snapdragon X laptop, I'd be curious to know what the experience is like today.

    I will say that Intel has kind of made the original X Elite chips irrelevant with their Lunar Lake chips. They have similar performance/battery life, and run cool (so you can use the laptop on your lap or in bed without it overheating), but have full Linux support today and you don't have to deal with x86 emulation. If anyone needs a thin & light Linux laptop today, they're probably your best option. Personally, I get 10-14 hours of real usage (not manufacturer "offline video playback with the brightness turned all the way down" numbers) on my Vivobook S14 running Fedora KDE. In the future, it'll be interesting to see how Intel's upcoming Panther Lake chips compare to Snapdragon X2.

    • foxandmouse12 hours ago
      The iGPU in Panther Lake has me pretty excited about intel for the first time in a long time. Lunar Lake proved they’re still relevant; Panther Lake will show whether they can actually compete.
    • layloweran hour ago
      I'm typing this from a snapdragon x elite HP. It's fine really but my use is fairly basic. I only use it to watch movies, read, browse, and draft word and excel, some light coding.

      No gaming - and I came in knowing full well that a lot of the mainstream programs don't play well with snapdragon.

      What has amazed me the most is the battery life and the seemingly no real lag or micro-stuttering that you get in some other laptops.

      So, in all, fine for light use. For anything serious, use a desktop.

      • jdibsan hour ago
        What is it about it that makes it unsuited for anything serious? The way you describe it, the only thing it's not suited for is gaming, which is not generally regarded as serious.

        Many people including myself do serious work on a macbook, which is also ARM. What's different about this qualcomm laptop that makes it inappropriate?

        • znpy27 minutes ago
          > What's different about this qualcomm laptop that makes it inappropriate?

          Everything else around the cpu. apple systems are entirely co-designed (cpu to work with the rest of the components and everything together to work with mac os).

          While i'd love to see macbook-level quality on other brands (looking at you, lenovo) tight hardware+software co-design (and co-development) yields much better results.

    • tester756an hour ago
      Yea, Lunar Lake made hit into ARM, but Panther Lake should be even stronger hit
    • ori_b14 hours ago
      Forget equal effort: Start off with hardware docs.
      • AlotOfReading13 hours ago
        Equal effort is far more likely from Qualcomm than hardware docs. They don't even freely share docs with partners, and many important things are restricted even from their own engineers. I've seen military contractors less paranoid than QCOM.
        • zettabomb13 hours ago
          I'd have to say that full hardware documentation, even under NDA, is prerequisite to claim equal effort. The expectation on a desktop platform (that is, explicitly not mobile, like phones or tablets) is that development is mostly open for those who want to, and Qualcomm's business is sort of fundamentally counter to that. So either they're going to have to change those expectations (which I would prefer not to happen), provide more to manufacturers, or expect that their market performance will be poor.
          • Wowfunhappy11 hours ago
            If they don't provide hardware documentation for Windows either (a desktop platform), how can it be a prerequisite for equal effort?
      • userbinator5 hours ago
        Qualcomm could've become "the Intel of the ARM PC" if they wanted to, but I suspect they see no problem with (and perhaps have a vested interest in) proprietary closed systems given how they've been doing with their smartphone SoCs.

        Unfortunately, even Intel is moving in that direction whenever they're trying to be "legacy free", but I wonder if that's also because they're trying to emulate the success of smartphone SoC vendors.

        • pjmlpan hour ago
          The extent PCs are open is an historical accident, that most OEMs would rather not repeat, as you can see everywhere from embedded all the way to cloud systems.

          If anything, Linux powered devices are a good example on how all of them end up with OEM-name Linux, with minimal contributions to upstream.

          If everyone would leave Windows in droves, expect regular people to be getting Dell and HP Linux at local PC store, with the same limitations as going outside their distros with binary blobs, and pre-installed stuff.

        • bigyabai4 hours ago
          I don't know if the prospect of being the "Intel of ARM" is very appealing when you can manufacture high-margin smartphone SOCs instead. The addressable market doesn't seem to be very large; any potential competition is stifled by licensing on both Microsoft and Softbank's side.

          The legend of Windows on ARM is decades old, and people have been seriously trying to make it happen for at least the past two decades. They're all bled dry. Apple is the only one who can turn a profit, courtesy of their sweetheart deal with Masayoshi Son.

    • timpera3 hours ago
      Do the Lunar Lake chips have the same incredible standby battery times as the Snapdragon X's? That's where the latter really shines in my opinion.
    • Marsymars9 hours ago
      > I will say that Intel has kind of made the original X Elite chips irrelevant with their Lunar Lake chips.

      Depends why the Snapdragon chips were relevant in the first place! I got an ARM laptop for work so that I can locally build things for ARM that we want to be able to deploy to ARM servers.

      • wryun6 hours ago
        Surprising. Cross compilation too annoying to set up? No CI pipelines for things you're actually deploying?

        (I'm keen about ARM and RISC-V systems, but I can never actually justify them given the spotty Linux situation and no actual use case)

        • fweimer29 minutes ago
          It's more surprising to me that software isn't portable enough that you can develop locally on x86-64. And then have a proper pipeline that produces the official binaries.

          Outside the embedded space, cross-compilation really is a fool's errand: either your software is not portable (which means it's not future-proof), or you are targeting an architecture that is not commercially viable.

        • aallaall2 hours ago
          Linux on arm is probably the most popular computing device platform in the world.
        • mort964 hours ago
          Cross compilation is a pain to set up, especially if you're relying on system libraries for anything. Even dynamically linking against glibc is a pain when cross compiling.
    • christophilus11 hours ago
      Roughly the same on my Intel Lenovo. It’s a great little machine. And Linux runs nicely.
  • blacklion11 minutes ago
    Somewhat tangent: x86-based laptops of this brand (it is new to me, I never meet Tuxedo Computers before) looks attractive, but there is no information about their screens main property: are they glossy or matt?

    My wife is very sensitive to glossy screens and we have big problems to find new laptop for her, as most good ones are glossy now.

  • arjie8 hours ago
    I fully expected this. I really wanted to get the Snapdragon X Elite Ideacentre just because I wanted an ARM target to run stuff on and if I'm being honest the Mac Minis are way better price/performance with support. Apple Silicon is far faster than any other ARM processor (Ampere, Qualcomm, anything else) that's easily available with good Linux support.

    I am so grateful to the Asahi Linux guys who made this whole thing work. What a tour de force! One day, we'll get the M4 Mac Mini on Asahi and that will be far superior to this Snapdragon X Elite anyway.

    I remember working on a Qualcomm dev board over a decade ago and they had just the worst documentation. The hardware wouldn't even respond correctly to what you told it to do. I don't know if that's standard but without the large amount of desire there is to run Linux on Apple Silicon I didn't really anticipate support approaching what Asahi has on M1/M2.

    • aallaall2 hours ago
      Apple provide even less documentation than Qualcomm. Let that sink in.
  • PhilippGille8 hours ago
    Related from July:

    "Linux on Snapdragon X Elite: Linaro and Tuxedo Pave the Way for ARM64 Laptops"

    291 points, 217 comments

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44699393

    • userbinator5 hours ago
      The first comment there is worth reading again, just for this sentence:

      If you want to change some settings oft[sic] the device, you need to use their terrible Electron application.

  • tester756an hour ago
    >usually one of the strong arguments for ARM devices—were not achieved under Linux
  • andrewaylett14 hours ago
    While I almost certainly wouldn't have done more than wished for one, it's a shame they're not getting any return for their effort.
  • Incipient7 hours ago
    This feels like BAU for PC vendors - you test out a product on a new combination of hardware, and it isn't mature/stable/ready for production, so you kick it down the road to develop later - this is especially true for Linux, where a LOT of the work would be done outside of your organisation.
  • rr8089 hours ago
    How hard can it be to have an Android laptop? Basically most people just use a browser and the choice of applications is already extensive.
    • Almondsetat5 hours ago
      That's a Chromebook
    • Egor3f5 hours ago
      There used to be some laptops like Toshiba ac100, actually an almost unusable device even for simple tasks.
  • DeathArrow3 hours ago
    Hardware companies generally start working on a laptop before a SOC is released, not after. They also need to secure manufacturer support, in this case Qualcomm to be able to deliver in time.
  • StopDisinfo9102 hours ago
    I wonder if Mediatek will try its hand as laptop oriented SoC now that their flagship mobile SoC are competitive again and Google is merging Android and Chrome OS.

    Generally, they are far nicer than Qualcomm when it comes to supporting standard technology.

    • Findecanoran hour ago
      They already have, and they are in Chromebooks. Last week, another HN:er posted that he uses a Lenovo Chromebook with a Mediatek SoC as his daily Linux dev machine.

      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45938410

      BTW. I don't think Qualcomm SoCs running Windows was just about performance but more of a time-limited exclusivity deal with MS.

  • kopirgan8 hours ago
    Bios is an issue for most laptop under Linux not just arm.
    • arcfour4 hours ago
      LVFS doesn't exist? UEFI?
      • kopirganan hour ago
        I mean updating it. Often the update are just windows only..

        For example I've had this dell Elitebook where I've installed Debian wiping out Win. While on windows system prompts Bios update practically every week but been years in Linux on same bios. IIRC updates were win only or jump thru some complex rings of fire. Haven't bothered looking up in a while..

        I've also had to disable some protection such as security before I could install Debian though I guess there's a way if I research hard enough.

    • 8 hours ago
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  • exabrial14 hours ago
    I mean I feel like once one of the ARM chipmakers can lend a hand on the software side it should be a landslide.

    Google and Samsung managed to make very successful Chromebooks together, but IIRC there was a bunch of back and forth to make the whole thing boot quickly and sip battery power.

    • tecoholic12 hours ago
      What’s the primary need for ARM? Is it because Apple silicon showed a big breakthrough in performance to power with reduced instruction set? While it’s amazing on paper I barely notice a difference on my day to day use between an Intel Ultra and a M2 in performance. Battery life is where they are miles apart.
      • acomjean10 hours ago
        I’m guessing for most people it doesn’t much matter. Most people aren’t writing assembly. They do love an all day battery. I think the competition really helps keep these companies honest.
  • snvzzan hour ago
    ARM was always a distraction, and a monopoly i.e. worse than x86's duopoly.

    Only RISC-V is worth switching to.

  • IshKebab14 hours ago
    Does anyone know why Linux laptop battery life is so bad? Is it a case of devices needing to be turned off that aren't? Poor CPU scheduling?
    • jmole12 hours ago
      It's ACPI - most laptops ship with half-broken ACPI tables, and provide support for tunables through windows drivers. It's convenient for laptop manufacturers, because Microsoft makes it very easy to update drivers via windows update, and small issues with sleep, performance, etc. can be mostly patched through a driver update.

      Linux OTOH can only use the information it has from ACPI to accomplish things like CPU power states, etc. So you end up with issues like "the fans stop working after my laptop wakes from sleep" because of a broken ACPI implementation.

      There are a couple of laptops with excellent battery life under linux though, and if you can find a lunar lake laptop with iGPU and IPS screen, you can idle around 3-4W and easily get 12+ hours of battery.

      • sidewndr4610 hours ago
        Don't just leave us hanging, what model number laptops have that great of a battery life?
        • admash6 hours ago
          LG Gram laptops have excellent battery life. E.g. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lightweight-with-power-and-20-...

          I have an LG Gram 15 from 2021 and it gets 15+ hours under light usage in Linux.

          • kmac_2 hours ago
            LG Gram user here with Debian as a daily driver. Can confirm, maybe not 15h, but I don't think about charging. Plus, it's super stable, not a single crash or hang-up over years. It just works. I hope LG will keep this up and not mess up next iterations of the hardware.
        • kijiki10 hours ago
          Lunar Lake Lenovo Carbon X1. If you get the IPS screen, you'll get even better than 12 hours.
      • magicalhippo5 hours ago
        What's standing in the way of doing something like NDISwrapper but for ACPI? Just that nobody with ghe required skills has spent the effort? Or something technical?
      • browningstreet8 hours ago
        ACPI has been a problem for Linux for so long now…
        • jmole6 hours ago
          Its not a problem with Linux, it's a problem with laptop manufacturers not caring about designing their ACPI tables and firmware correctly.
          • barrkel2 hours ago
            If the observable behavior is bad Linux performance, it's a Linux problem.

            There's a saying in motorcycling: it's better to be alive than right. There's no upside in being correct if it leaves you worse off.

            There are ways to make things better leveraging the Linux way. Make more usable tools for fixing ACPI deficiencies with hotloadable patches, ways of validating or verifying the patches for safety, ways of sharing and downloading them, and building a community around it.

            Moaning that manufacturers only pay attention to where their profits come from is not a strategy at all.

          • surajrmal4 hours ago
            That sounds like a problem with linux.
    • JoshTriplett14 hours ago
      > Does anyone know why Linux laptop battery life is so bad?

      It's extremely dependent on the hardware and driver quality. On ARM and contemporary x86 that's even more true, because (among other things) laptops suspend individual devices ("suspend-to-idle" or "S0ix" or "Modern Standby"), and any one device failing to suspend properly has a disproportionate impact.

      That said, to a first approximation, this is a case where different people have wildly different experiences, and people who buy high-end well-supported hardware experience a completely different world than people who install Linux on whatever random hardware they have. For instance, Linux on a ThinkPad has excellent battery life, sometimes exceeding Windows.

      • gessha13 hours ago
        Are there any repositories of documented battery life behavior?
    • okanat10 hours ago
      Newer laptops come with extra power peripherals and sensors. Some of them are in ACPI tables, some are not. Most of them are proprietary ASICs (or custom chips, nuvoton produces quite a bit of those). Linux kernel or the userspace has poor support for those. Kernel PCIe drivers require some tuning. USB stack is kind of shaky and power management features are often turned off since they get unstable as hell.

      If you have a dGPU, Linux implementation of the power management or offloading actually consumes more power than Windows due to bad architectural design. Here is a talk from XDC2025 that plans to fix some of the issues: https://indico.freedesktop.org/event/10/contributions/425/

      Desktop usage is a third class citizen under Linux (servers first, embedded a distant second). Phones have good battery life since SoC and ODM engineers spend months to tune them and they have first party proprietary drivers. None of the laptop ODMs do such work to support Linux. Even their Windows tooling is arcane.

      Unless the users get drivers all the minute PMICs and sensors, you'll never get the battery life you can get from a clean Windows install with all the drivers. MS and especially OEMs shoot themselves in the foot by filling the base OS with so much bloat that Linux actually ends up looking better compared to stock OEM installs.

    • BadBadJellyBean13 hours ago
      My Dell XPS had pretty good battery life on linux. Probably better than on windows. But Dell sells the XPS wiht linux preinstalled. So I assume it has a lot to do with the drivers. Many notebooks have custom chips inside or some weird bios that works together with a windows program. I'd say laptops are more diverse than desktop PCs with of the shelve hardware.
      • roryirvinean hour ago
        Yeah, my 3-ish year old 13.4" XPS Plus is currently consuming 3.9 W with around 150 open tabs across four Firefox windows, 3 active Electron apps, Libreoffice Writer & Impress, a text editor, and a couple of terminals.

        That's in an extremely vanilla Debian stable install, running in the default "Balanced" power mode, without any power-related tuning or configuration.

        That compares reasonably well with my 14" M3 Macbook Pro, which seems to be drawing around 3.5 W with a similar set of apps open.

        Sure, the XPS is flattered in this comparison because it has a slightly smaller screen, but even accounting for that it would still be... fine? Easily enough to get through a full day of use, which is all I care about.

        There's nothing special about this XPS, and I'd expect the Thinkpad models that have explicit Linux support to be equally fine. The key point is that the vendor has put some amount of care and attention into producing a supportable system.

    • bmacho43 minutes ago
      A lot of people say that lightweight desktops/distros help. Probably GNOME/KDE unnecessarily use your SSD, network, GPU and other resources even when you are idle, compared to using a minimal WM and only starting the daemons you actually need.

      I personally never tested it, and I can't find definite benchmarks that confirm and measure the waste.

    • seltzered_11 hours ago
      In addition to the other comments, its worth noting macOS started adding developer documentation around energy efficiency, quality of service prioritization, etc. (along with support within its OS) around 2015-2016 when the first fanless usb-c macbook came out: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Pe...

      Think I'm arguing its both things where the OS itself can optimize things for battery life along with instilling awareness and API support for it so developers can consider it too.

      • cosmic_cheese9 hours ago
        On top of this, they started encouraging adoption of multithreading and polished up the APIs to make doing so easier even in the early days of OS X, since they were selling PPC G4/G5 towers with dual and eventually quad CPUs.

        This meant that by the time they started pushing devs to pay attention to QoS and such, good Mac apps had already been thoroughly multithreaded for years, making it relatively easy to toss things onto lower priority queues.

    • ajvs12 hours ago
      A big part of it is chipmakers deprecating S3 sleep in favour of Modern Standby.
      • fragmede2 hours ago
        if Windows and Mac and androids and iOS can achieve great battery life then isn’t the problem Linux?
        • pjmlpan hour ago
          More like FOSS religion, because those get the capabilities via NDAs or binary drivers.
    • jcalvinowens14 hours ago
      Install powertop, the "tunables" tab has a list of system power saving settings you can toggle through the UI. I've seen them make a pretty big difference, but YMMV of course.
      • badgersnake3 hours ago
        It mostly just breaks things unfortunately. You can faff around for ages trying to figure out which devices work and which don’t but you end up with not much to show for it.
      • IshKebab4 hours ago
        Yeah I tried that but it made no difference at all.
    • WastedCucumber14 hours ago
      I ran into this problem on a Slimbook some years ago now. I found that my battery drained way too fast in standby, and I remember determining that this was some (relatively common) problem with sleep states, that some linux machines couldn't really enter/stay in a deeper sleep state, so my Slimbook's standby wasn't much of a standby at all.

      But that's just one problem, I bet.

    • bigfatkitten9 hours ago
      I've found that it can be made considerably better than Windows on the same hardware, but it requires substantial effort.
  • fragmede2 hours ago
    We can nerd it out about Linux this an S3 sleep that. How much money does the community need to raise all in, for that notebook to happen. Where's the GoFundMeAngelList platform that's a cult where I can pledge $10,000 to get this laptop of my dreams? Or are we all too busy shitposting?
  • aidenn012 hours ago
    I'm disappointed, but not surprised.