I think it is also important to realize/point out that we do a lot of projecting and our child may have very different interests. Not saying that applies to you evolve2k, just wanted to make the general point.
I set up a Linux machine with our daughter and while it was initially ok, she did not have much interest in the power/freedom and it only became a nuisance for her. Her school/friends use PowerPoint - there is a lot of friction trying work with them in LibreOffice. She wanted to do DTP-like things several times and the Linux options are not exactly... user-friendly. Etc.
In the end we got her a Mac Mini. She can still open a terminal, use Homebrew, etc. if she ever develops an interest. Heck, she can use most free software. However, she can also do the stuff she is currently interested in much more easily. E.g., she uses Swift Publisher, which is a very simple/user-friendly DTP program, can collaborate on PowerPoint presentations when needed, etc.
First and foremost listen to what your child is interested in.
The reason I started with Linux with my kids is so they were aware that that power and freedom exists. Kids that grow up in a mobile ecosystem (and increasingly both the Microsoft and Apple ecosystems) are fundamentally disempowered, just as the adults that use that ecosystem are. The goal of having my kids use Linux was to make them understand that they did have agency.
Fifteen years on, I have to say it was an excellent decision. They're light years ahead of their peers in terms of their ability to use computers.
We shun most of this as faddish and low quality. Fortnite and Battlefield are replaced with OpenMW and Veloran.
If you're doing things blindly in Linux, there's no point. The value is in understanding and leveraging that understanding to achieve your goals.
In many ways, this isn't about Linux at all. It's about parenting.
This is almost word for word the same way my parents talked about Harry Potter and Pokemon when I was feeling alienated in school for only being allowed to read religious books for entertainment.
It leads to some pretty strong resentment, if that's the kind of thing you care about.
My eldest read your comment and said that Battlefield and Fortnite are trash because of the multiplayer component that leads to gameplay that's low quality. He doesn't feel this way about Elden Ring, for example. In short, we exercise judgment.
When I was a kid I parroted my parents opinions about Harry Potter books being a pathway to practicing witchcraft. Now in hindsight I recognize those weren't so much my opinions as they were a performance to get my parents approval.
To be clear I'm not psychoanalyzing your kids (not liking multiplayer is rational), I'm sharing my own related experience.
Multiplayer is a special category of risk in my opinion because I was an ever quest player and I built a feeling of responsibility toward the players that were relying on me and this led me away from schoolwork. I'm trying to avoid that same pitfall by still allowing them to game, even in a multiplayer setting, just only to a limited degree.
We simply try to avoid the games that are the most egregious in this particular way because they're the riskiest.
I do not think it can be compared to choice of OS where you have to choose one per machine (unless you dual boot or run VMs).
I am guessing when you say "religious books" you mean a narrow range of books approved of by a very narrow minded religious group. Not much mention of, say, scriptures and mystics using sexual imagery, for example. right? Of the many deeply religious major authors who did not fit that particular groups views?
My parents didn't let me read Song of Ice and Fire Harry Potter (and do a lot of other contemporary culture things) when I was younger because they said they are pop culture fad. Only haute culture literature in this household! I've had a good childhood but I also missed out on a lot of good things because parenting decisions like this.
And Fortnite is actually an awesome game, it's the mugen we were all dreaming for.
That falls under the "multiplayer titles that want to install kernel level anti cheat"
I don’t know about that. Just to be upfront: I’m not advocating putting your kids through this because I think they have to have that motivation for themselves to really benefit.
However, I basically did blindly follow guides to try and get things working without fully understanding what I was doing. Over time, things stick and I’m able to look under the surface and get a better understanding and better solve the problem I’m facing.
Hell, any “Learn X Language” book works like this! There’s always boilerplate that you need to kinda skip over for a while just so you can get a running program. Hell, I’m leaning Rust and I’m using #[] “decorators” and I couldn’t tell you exactly what they’re doing!
I’m so glad my parents didn’t override my decisions on literature or video games or TV shows. I watched anime then, my parents didn’t get it, and that’s perfectly fine. I continue to enjoy it now. If they had made me adopt their mindset of “anime = fad” or “anime = cartoon = childish” I’d have been worse off. Instead of enjoying masterpieces like Frieren I’d be snobbishly thinking about what a fad it is.
I agree with other commenters in here, I feel sorry for your kids and thankful that my parents didn't treat me like what you are doing with your kids now.
My kids choose the games they play, but I exercise judgment in vetoing certain decisions. My example of the From Software titles were not games that I bought for them, or even played (in the case of Elden Ring), but rather titles that my boys were into because of their friend group playing it. They've been playing Night Reign lately and enjoying it. I think people read into my dismissal of Battlefield and Fortnite as indicative of some much larger pattern that they've had a really bad experience with, but I'm not sure that conclusion is warranted.
There's nothing more substantive or enduring about their games intrinsically, that's 100% you just projecting your own opinions about what games are 'enduring' onto your kids, and is not giving them the 'guidance' you seem to think it is.
I'm sorry you see it as projection onto my children. I'm keenly aware that many parents try to force their kids to live the life they lived, and I've been careful to not do that. But I understand that that's not coming through to you in this discussion. I appreciate the advice though.
You are confusing "multiplayer" with "massively multiplayer online" games. The vast majority of multiplayer games are not MMOs. There are tons of multiplayer games that you can run your own servers for, or which use P2P or local LAN connections to not require any publisher presence or support for.
Hell, set them up a Minecraft or ARK or whatever survival-crafter game server, and they can invite and play with their friends on it.
Out of curiosity, what games published after 2020 (just making up a year here) can you play on LAN with one player creating a server and another connecting via IP? It's my ideal setup, but it seems to only really be available in open source games.
There are tons, it really just depends on what you want to play. Looking at my steam library (installed only, so I can verify there's a LAN option) gives me:
Misery, Necesse, Voyagers of Nera, Infinite Rails, Windward Horizon, 7 Days to Die, HumanitZ, Barotrauma, Avorion
Keep in mind that those are just from the MP games I have currently installed, that are from 2020 onwards. I have 131 mp games from that release period, and only 33 of those are installed, and I only checked games that I figured would be likely candidates (i.e. I excluded Sniper Elite 5, Remnant 2, MechWarrior 5, etc).
So yeah, LAN/ direct IP connect options are still really common, it's just something to check beforehand. Also, the genre really changes the likelihood of having it.
As I said in my previous comment, my kids chose the From Software titles because their friend group plays it, so I don't think that's a particularly good example of me substituting my judgment for theirs.
I’ve made a couple of nasty comments about Elon Musk recently. I’m unlikely to change the way I speak about him. I don’t speak about anyone else that way, as far as I know. You can ban me if insulting Elon Musk in particular and no one else is something you don’t like. It is my sincere belief that he warrants an exception, because of the damage he’s done and continues to do. You’re welcome to defend him and ban people who insult him in the name of upholding the rules.
I vetoed Minecraft and replaced it with MineTest because Minecraft has the hypixel community, which is essentially an MMO that's built inside of the world of Minecraft and dominates the Minecraft playerbase. I was worried that my 11-year-old would be too young to deal with a massively multiplayer game like that, so I prohibited Minecraft for him. The original joy of Minecraft when I first bought it off of Notch's site in 2009 was that you could build things and exercise creativity. I found that in the MMO versions of Minecraft, this is less of a focus. So instead I host a docker container with a minetest instance that we can all build in together.
I also vetoed Roblox because I feel that the entire economy in that game is going to be a net negative, particularly the aspect where kids beg their parents to use real money to buy them Robux.
But to your point, the list of things I veto is pretty small: I'm socially very liberal, and so the main thing I'm trying to filter for is games that are exploitative of their playerbase in some way. In the case of Battlefield and Fortnite, since I used those examples earlier, these are both games that my kids have independently decided they are not interested in; I think some folks read my original comment that I had removed Battlefield and Fortnite from my household. But if you look at my phrasing, I used the passive voice because it was basically a group decision to never really pick them up. I'm using weasel language because they sometimes go over their neighbor's house and have experience with those games, so I don't want to make it out like they've never played them at all.
I actually agree with your vetoes and your logic for the vetoes makes sense. An MMO is too much for a 11 year old. And getting kids hooked the real money aspect of Roblox will have negative consequences in the future.
Obviously I’m no one, but it seems to me like you’re a good dad. Good on you. Again, sorry for the contentious tone of my previous comment.
Couldn't agree more - Linux can be a great way to get into computing. But only if done in the right way. Arguably for an older kid / teenager (boys usually) it's important to have access to the same games your friends are playing, otherwise you start to become naturally excluded from lunch table talk.
Of course it still depends if the kid is a social butterfly etc., but parents should understand this.
As a child, I couldn't stand Windows. Nothing works, you just want to do that, but there is always some stupid error message, that tells you nothing. And it never does what you tell it to do, it always does some random mess, that you do not yet know what it even is, or how to fix it.
As a child you need to see causality and have a predictive system, so that you can form a mental model and understand things, or even have the ability to form a question to ask the adults. You do not need a system, that is it's own child and is always mulish yet things it is the smartest thing in the world.
sorry, but what you experienced is comparable to peer pressure, and as a parent, giving in to that is the wrong approach. you will not agree because you suffered as a result and i am sorry you had to go through that. my oldest is just getting into the age where these things start to matter, but regardless, my kids won't get phones and or anything besides linux for their own sake.
fortunately times are changing and working in our favor. windows 11 is practically unusable already, inpart because it refuses to run on anything but the most recent computers, and in part because it requires an online account, not to mention all the advertising that i refuse to subject my kids to. windows games run on linux better than ever thanks to steam, and my kids school uses linux too for the most part. so admittedly, this will be easier for my kids than it was for you.
When I "dance" (sway to the beat) at a wedding, I am doing the equivalent of tapping open on the file, whereas my parter with their lifetime of dance experience can move with a level of skill that is much more meaningful and nuanced. My best friend is a chef, his daughter has a vasty deeper awareness of flavor and technique vs most kids (including mine) who are just consuming without much thought. The same goes for my colleague who is also a musician and DJ - their kids can hear a song and instantly understand all the layers of production and instrumentation, whereas most children and adults are just nodding along to the beat.
If I consider most of the things I do in my life, I am interacting with them at very shallow and superficial level versus an expert, and I would assume the same is true for you.
I'm not expecting them to get into the nitty gritty about page alignment and DMA transfers. A directory tree is more on level with toe tapping.
These days the hardware support is usually fine and my employer requires me to use Linux on the desktop, but still, if I was a teenager I'd still be interested in games, a functional office suite, etc.
For my Linux hobby at the time, I ended up doing was installing MinGW on Windows XP and using Linux VMs on Windows, albeit I had an interest in that kind of stuff.
I don't think forcing people to daily drive Linux for the usual stuff makes much sense unless they want it and have an interest in low level configuration.
There have been issues, mostly with gaming. On the other hand they are happy with the results in retrospect. I just got the 17 year old a laptop with Windows 11 on it she wants Linux installed on it.
LibreOffice is always a sticking point, in my experience. I some times get roasted for saying it, but if you want people to have a good experience with Linux, point them toward something online like Google Docs. Yeah it’s not consistent with the ideological purity that some people want, but in my experience non-technical people do much better on Linux when they don’t have to deal with LibreOffice. I won’t even speculate why, it’s just not a good fit for non-technical Linux newcomers.
This is just not true. LibreOffice is way easier to understand as a child, since all the functionality is available and discoverable as a menu/tree structure, as opposed to the toolbar mess of MSOffice. That might be useful for professionals, but when you are a child, the unpredictability of these ribbons is just confusing. I just want to format this thing. Click on it. Search the ribbon for the thing. It's not there. Click slightly differently. Now the ribbon header changed. Click that back. Where is it? Still not there. Shit, how do I do that? Describe it in the browser. I have no clue, how anything is called. When I happen to find something, everything is in some foreign language where I can only say "apple" and "house" in. Also there are tons of advertisements and useless whitespace everywhere.
Screw it, I am just opening Notepad (because Notepad++ is not installed and I will only figure out how to use portable programs from an USB stick in 2.5years) do some drafts and finish it at home with a sane office program. In LibreOffice at home, I can find the functionality I need independent of finding out how I need to click on the item to apply it. Also when I click on something, on the left there is a property window open, which lists all the basic properties I can change.
MSOffice has moat for professionals who already know how to use it. It is not friendly for children who have never used a word processor.
Converting MSOffice documents to LibreOffice is not that hard, especially as a child, since my mates also have not used a word processor for decades, and have not used fancy formatting. And then you come around the corner with a poster designed in Scribus. They are all like: what you can do that? And guess with whom, people want to be in a group for a presentation, and who people will trust when you tell them to please save it in this format?
I'm sharing observations about seeing other people, including casual computer users, forced into using LibreOffice. It becomes the software experience they hate the most. They associate Linux with LibreOffice and want it all gone so they can go back to getting work done on mac or Windows like everyone else they know.
Your comment is a good example of the disconnect between average computer users and the LibreOffice fans:
> The only issue I have with it is when you need to open documents made in MSOffice. Otherwise, it does everything MSOffice does and faster with less cloud/AI crap. Reminds me of MSOffice during XP era
Collaborating with other MS Office users is a key part of many people's jobs. Having poor MS Office compatibility isn't just a footnote, it's a showstopper issue that will make these people's jobs harder every single day. Making people's job harder and take more time is a great way to make them hate something.
As for not having cloud features and having an old style XP era interface: These are also points that are only positive for a specific type of computer user wants computing to return the earlier, simpler era of computing they fondly remember. For everyone else, that "cloud crap" is a helpful feature for getting their job done and that XP era interface makes it feel like they're stuck using outdated software. I understand you don't use or like the new features, but average people who use this software in their jobs might actually benefit from the new features and new interface.
The primary reason kids would use office tools is for classwork, which is not dissimilar from job work.
If you're submitting a book report or something it doesn't matter what you're using to write it. However, once you get into group projects (which are very common, in my experience) being the odd one out who can't work with others is really not good.
Kids also learn how to use computers at most schools. They're probably exposed to some combination of MS Office and/or Google Docs products already.
There is also OnlyOffice as an alternative to Google Docs. https://www.onlyoffice.com/download-desktop
The thought of willfully making a child dependent on the biggest advertising company on the planet for their documents is pretty gross, at least when you have the knowledge not to.
Exactly. The Office '97 is nearly 30 years old. The world has moved on. People like their modern software.
I think LibreOffice appeals to people who think computing should have been frozen in time at some arbitrary point in the past when they were younger, but it feels stale and old to anyone who doesn't have rose-tinted glasses for the Office '97 era.
Most people don't want their software to be turned into some ideological battle. They just want to get their work done and not have to fight the software along the way, so they can get back to enjoying their lives.
An actual useful feature is coediting a document, but has downsides, and can be done without the advertising company involved.
One should learn how to do it with autonomy early, so not dependent their entire lives.
A child can only ever have interest in things he or she has been exposed to. A good environment will expose them to many different things, expanding their menu of interest options.
Sounds like you’re doing a great job and tuning in to the needs and interests of your child. Love it!
I'm amazed parents are still paying for MS office licenses... Google Docs had completely taken over my college in the late 2000s and has been the standard at all the companies I've worked at since then. Plus I thought Chromebooks were pretty standard in schools now.
What's pushing parents towards a paid product over a free one that works better for a student use case?
Office 365 is free for students and has the same collaboration features you’re describing.
Edit: a web search confirms that they still have those requirements so I remain confused
What's wrong with Scribus?
1. It's in the living room next to an SNES and an N64.
2. I showed her vscode, did a short HTML tutorial, and printed out some HTML cheat sheet.
3. Some modest games.
4. No YouTube or social.
Most of the buzzwords are not important (power, freedom) but I want something "unrefined". That is, a little bit of the 1980s, 90s "neat creative toy" experience but nothing with a Recommender Engine. No "digital crack".
As an entertainment product, it's definitely 100% inferior to modern software, but you actually don't want it to "win" a contest against:
1. yourself
2. other children
3. healthy activities
Recommenders and modern games are really strong. Do not invite strong, self-interested parties to compete for your child's time and life against yourself, their siblings, their friends, their neighborhood and their own developing bodies.
Common pattern: Wake up; play one cup of Mario Kart 64; leave it behind and go outside for ten hours. Or play it together. A cute little nice thing in its little proper place.
Before investing time you might also get a several distros on live USB sticks, boot each one up with the kid and parent, and see which one they like best before you install it. Make the kid part of the process.
Depending on the age of the child, make the computer discoverable. The full app store might be too much for younger children (mummy what's a flatpak?) But you might preload a "basic" and an "intermediate" app, eg Minecraft and scratch and then a (simple!!) Python IDE. And put them in discoverable, kid friendly places on the start menu.
Games. Lots of games. Both for their fun value and for teaching the motor skills of mouse and keyboard. Curiosity apps like Google earth.
For older kids, compatibility with their friends is important so make sure that things like LibreOffice, chat etc Just Work. No 13 year old wants to be the Odd Kid with the Bizarro Parent Computer. You can involve them in thinking about what it means to have choice in computing and to not just be a consumer, but they're still kids facing natural social pressures.
I could go on all day. One last point. After the thing is all set up and has been running for a few weeks, check in with the child and parent. What do they like? What do they not? And fix those issues.
More to the point, they won't know what to look for, or might decide on something inappropriate (or even just unexpectedly hard to use).
> eg Minecraft and scratch and then a (simple!!) Python IDE.
If the kid is interested in and ready for creating a program by actually typing in text, a plain text editor (that can be Xed or Kate or whatever) plus the command line will probably serve better. The simplest functional IDE is really the built-in IDLE, and it's IMX not pleasant to use by comparison. The built-in command-line REPL, on the other hand, improved substantially in 3.13.
Why does it matter. They try something out, it doesn't work, they try something different out next time. A child learning on it's own always works like that. They try random things out and see what works.
My parents gave an RPi and I had root, because I needed to install it myself. I broke it a few times, but why is that a bad thing? It's not like I could destroy anything important.
The advantage of Python includes being a "real" language - you can literally make money with what you learn. Also, the program as textual artifact means in can be read out and discussed.
thonny is an ok replacement, but doesn't feel as kid friendly to me.
at worst they can mess up their account. then set up a new one. i don't see a situation where you would need to reinstall remotely.
don't let them choose distros. use the same distro you have, or one that you are comfortable supporting. everything else will make it harder for you to help them.
Re the distro, I think that you should aim to minimize the "irrelevant" cognitive load on the kid and make them feel ownership of their environment. So yeah, I would rather learn how to help them do things in Zorin knowing that they chose it because they liked the colors than ram stock Ubuntu or god forbid Arch down their throat because it's what I or their parent ran. There'll be plenty of time for that once you know they are into it. And no harm done if they aren't.
I gave mine to my son. I figured that my son might want to use the touch screen I went with Gnome because it seemed a little more touch friendly. I told myself it doesn't matter because he is 8 and I can always reinstall.
I chose Debian (Stable) so I wouldn't have to deal with keeping it updated, put a root password to prevent them from going crazy with installing stuff.
I will have to put Scratch on it someday, for the moment he cares about the following:
- the LEGO website to look at instructions - the music player to listen to soundtracks from his favourite games - MyPaint for making drawings
He is starting to figure out the idea of folders, deleting things, undo, etc., but hasn't asked for any other software or even games yet.
I am a professor and would like for my son to learn about word processors, spreadsheets, programming, etc.. If he ever asks, I will give him the root password and let him browse the repos. Right now, I'm just happy to see him enjoy it without doing what lots of his friends do: sit in front of YouTube all afternoon.
Since the micro:bit requires some file management for programming them, that’s been a good entry point to the file system.
Even the kid-safe stuff is so incredibly viral and empty, it kills all creativity and volition.
On the YT front a small thing that helps is an extension that removes all recommendations. So YouTube opens to a blank screen with only search and after watching a video there’s no now shady this. So it becomes much more functional to their interests.
“How to _____” “Explain how ____ works.”
Helps reduce the addictive parts and keep the “it’s a tool” parts in focus.
CocoMelon and its ilk on Youtube are abhorrent. It's digital crack tailored to absorb every little bit of attention. Avoid that shit.
The Kano was nice, because it was built for kids and had some guided stuff to help get them into it with various software and hardware to play around with.
With the Pi 400 it was stock Raspbian. The kid wasn’t sure where to begin. While it came with a book geared toward kids, I don’t know that he read it. I was trying to find a way to show him around to stuff he might think is fun, without it seeming boring over overwhelming, but I didn’t feel it went that well. I was also living 6 hours away at the time, so there weren’t regular visits for questions or to help things along, and the parents didn’t know anything about Linux.
Ultimately, I don’t think it inspired them as much as I was hoping. All they actually wanted was something to play Minecraft on, and the Pi edition was a very compromised experience for Minecraft. The Kano did have a mode to let people use Scratch type programming to automate aspects of building, which I thought was really cool, but it didn’t totally seem to click… though I did see some limited use after a couple years.
I think not having someone in the house who can guide and field questions really hindered the ability for them to really thrive on Linux. It would probably be worth including a series of lessons to ramp up their skills and knowledge. Doing something like that was difficult for me due to the distance and also not so much parental support on the idea of kids on computers. I was swimming against the current a little with those gifts, because I thought it was important they get access to the main tool they are likely to use throughout their life.
I learned Linux when I was like 13 or 14 and not because my father told me. He didn't know much about computers in early 2000/late 90ties.
The curiosity, the desire to learn, the need to set up my own isp, the need to start to make money, the curiosity of how html, php and other stuff worked let me to Linux.
Teach them how to be curious and feed that curiosity, the rest will happen.
And if they choose Mac over Linux, just get of their way, otherwise they will rebel.
Introducing alternative computing to your children so they actually learn skills isn't about control it's about giving them exposure. If all they see are iPads and Chromebooks, they’ll think that’s all there is and then compare the frustration of trying to do things with a real computer to the ease of just consuming content. I think that frustration is the point for a developing brain. It teaches problem-solving. Requires focus and patience. Rewards perseverance.
Curiosity needs a spark. Sometimes that spark is just showing them a terminal and letting them poke around, or getting them in to Scratch or any of the similar game design visual coding platforms.
Not everything has to be fun or easy. Struggle is part of learning. As a parent, we are up against an industry built to keep kids from ever getting bored. There's no guarantee they'll go down a more rewarding and impactful path if you are too handsoff. Especially in the early years.
I’d agree that projecting ideas on to kids isn’t the greatest thing since it’s top-down. But so are most ideas that get pushed to kids via media, school, friends, etc. And many of those aren’t the best either.
That's what parents do. My dad brought home a C64 back then, and a book about BASIC. We didn't have a joystick for it, so we built one together. He showed me how a speaker works by taking one apart. He taught me about HAM radio. Showed me neat stuff he built with electronics. Helped me with my math homework, because he was a goddamn math wizard. I watched him disassemble our piece of shit washing machine and fix it several times. None of it was mandatory or forced or nothing. It was more like, hey son take a look at this cool shit. And I thought it was cool, and my dad was the coolest dad ever because he knew all this stuff!
Sadly, he was taken from us too soon. I often wonder what he'd think about the tech and electronics of today.
Incidentally, I later came to believe that the visual coding impeded their ability to learn text-based coding. That was just my experience and I don’t have formal research to back it up, but I still wonder about it.
As a former child, my opinion is the opposite. I learned visual programming with Lego Mindstorms NXT in ~2008, and later developed an interest in text programming on Roblox in ~2012. It's my belief that my fluency with concepts like control flow and values output from one part of the program serving as inputs for another part of the program were largely transferable to text-based programming. Learning a first programming language is 30% learning syntax, and 70% learning programming.
My oldest now has mint on her laptop and Bazzite/W11 dual booting her desktop. This was her own choice, and she did the setups herself.
My youngest is now almost an adult, but I went through the same thing that you are doing now about 15 years ago, before the prevalence of smartphones. You have a lot more options now, especially with cheap hardware which is well supported by Linux.
* I picked up a tangerine iMac, and managed to install OS X on it. I had to install on a G4 tower first and move the disk over. This machine was not online, and it let them play games like Alphabet Express, etc, without the slings / arrows of the Internet.
* The educational thinkpad / lenovo laptops were built like tanks and supported Linux well. These were online, so I put them behind my own DNS resolver so that I could block some websites like Roblox, Discord, etc.
* Scratch was well received, but you have to watch the online interactions.
If they're not into tinkering, or not into tinkering yet, consider an immutable distribution like Kinoite, Aurora, or Bluefin. It is difficult for them to break things
Don't expect them to dive in and never leave the Linux ecosystem, an important lesson is "the right tool for the job". If they know that it is an option, they can always choose it.
I might be a bit odd in that I've been using Linux as my primary desktop since 1997, so the kids have seen it around for their entire lives.
>In windows when a child goes searching the web for a “movie maker for windows” they are going to be in a world of hurt either finding expensive commercial options or super scammy sites promising the world.
It's funny that you use that example because the state of video editors on Windows have never been better from industry standard free options (DaVinci Resolve) to FOSS options (KDEnlive, Openshot, Shotcut, Avidemux etc).
What you describe is a Google / web / browser problem not an OS one
Insert slightly more niche need that a kid might have ;)
Same goes for adults. I'd advocate for Linux to some of my friends & family but not others.
Kids are all individuals!! Parenting should be flexible and personal.
Ununtu (non root) and timekeeper plus. I work with them when they want to install something or do updates.
They have steam, minecraft, OpenRA for games and are happy.
They create music, program arduinos, edit videos they make with friends.
More than enough to keep them entertained and teach them the basics.
Why ZFS? So that backups are easy, snapshots are cheap, and when the inevitable happens, it takes a few minutes to reboot and roll back.
Why Debian Stable? Because it will continue to work and get security updates for years, without changing out from underneath them without notice.
I would also recommend that any computer for an 8 year old be placed in the living room or a similar easy-to-watch-over place. Kids need guidance; if they didn't, they wouldn't be kids.
Adblocking, obviously. Everyone needs that.
App store? Yeah we have one, it's called make.
Just take it slow, I pushed the console a little too hard on my 13 year old. He now refers to it as the “black box of despair” hah.
Linux has a really steep learning curve for people who have only learned Windows at school or are used to the touch-based interface Chromebooks and smartphones/tablets provide. It can certainly be overwhelming for a kid who just wants to work on a school project or game with friends, so you'll need to maintain a delicate balance if you try to make this work.
If I was considering this for my kids, I'd try to give them something as friendly as possible. No terminals or writing code at all, unless they actually get interested and start asking you about how the computer works. Sit down together and teach them how to responsibly use the internet, protect their privacy and find free software.
Try to make the experience interactive and let them know that they can customize it however they want and help them do so. I always found Windows and macOS very limiting in that sense as a child and my only options were downloading sketchy apps or writing my own terrible scripts (I remember trying to animate my wallpaper on Windows with Python...).
It's also very important to ensure they're covered for schoolwork and any gaming needs. I won't recommend Libreoffice here, Office online or in a VM will be a much better experience and Proton is amazing at gaming on Linux these days (although if you've selected low-end hardware it may be worth considering a dedicated game console).
I generally think most people will appreciate Linux if they give it a try. People just tend to be negative because they've been taught to stay inside the closed ecosystem of big OS vendors and closed, user-hostile software. Once you experience freedom, there's no going back!
Good luck with your project!
EDIT: An important downside I forgot to mention is that there is practically no way to set screen-time or app limits, or block certain websites which is something important to have at least in the beginning when teaching responsible computer use. For those who have tried this, what's your approach?
Zorin has some built in features to support Windows software pretty easily I understand, but I'm not sure if that's through wine or a VM or what.
You can test them out in your browser thru the website below and see if it fits what you're looking for.
He recently learned there are other computers running Windows, which he hates because of the ads.
So maybe pick something with the realization that they may stick with it for decades. :)
I also kept Windows on dual boot so I could play UT99 with friends. The social aspect is also important. My son is comfortable using our Debian machines, but also has Windows on his primary desktop so he can play Roblox and Minecraft Bedrock with school friends. I wouldn't want him to lose that.
Also it's similar enough to Windows that they don't feel completely out of touch on the school computers.
Killer app is Krita for the older one, even got him a cheap Wacom later on.
Otherwise school work, native Linux games, and YouTube. That last one with the younger one I have to keep an eye on. Honestly thinking about blocking access, we'll see.
Both like gaming, so I set up wine for them on my machine with separate accounts. Learning about email, downloads, files and folders by installing Skyrim mods (using kid friendly settings on Nexus), also an exercise in managing frustration...
Anyway everyone will be different, just set up something they'll enjoy. Already for a kid to know Linux exists is a head start.
At least with streaming a TV show or movie there are defined breaks instead of an endless array of kid dopamine
It was somewhat manageable before with proper education (teaching them what to avoid, time limiting), but now with shorts and AI it's becoming a cesspool.
The main reason I allow it is to show them the dangers of it, of knowing to be careful. Otherwise I feel like as soon as they get access, they'll be completely unprepared... and of course as they get older they will definitely get access.
Contrast this with a modern experience. There are hundreds of inscrutable processes running, constantly talking to the network, to disk, doing who-knows-what. What does "software" mean on a modern machine? Software runs the gamut from a command line one-shot tool, to an invisible daemon, to a desktop app with a window, or multiple windows, to something hosted in a browser, to something hosted by something hosted in a browser. How can you build a clear mental model amidst so much noise, clutter and (both UI and runtime) heterogeneity?
In the same why "phylogeny recapitulates ontogeny" I'd argue the correct computer for a kid is a single process box with either hard-coded programs or a floppy-like experience (e.g. SD card "floppies). Given all of this, the perfect kids computer system is an HDMI TV dongle that runs an Apple IIe emulator, Logo, and a handful of retro games, and an SD card slot for other programs (prepped by the parent). No wifi or internet, bluetooth for connecting a keyboard, and no mouse.
There are have been so many benefits. He's been a great touch typer from a young age (compared to his peers especially, who mostly used phones). I mean, being on linux exposes you to using the command line, which makes you _want_ to hack, so he's learned about network. You also avoid the barrage of ads that microsoft is currently assaulting the rest of the world with in their start menu.
If you want an alternative to Windows, then a Chromebook might be a good choice since this is what they will probably be using in K-12 education, and there are plenty of free online tools for learning to program, doing 3-D modelling, etc if they are really into it.
I honestly don't know if they've ever touched a PC or Mac, (except for the ones we, as parents, have.) They learn how to use them in school.
If they're interested in geeky stuff, I'll show them how to use them. Otherwise, it's important to recognize that "Linux" is often a combination of politics and hobby.
Second, for such young age, you still need to manage the pc. So Manjaro with Plasma is my choice.
The software to install is your choice, because it really depends on what they will do, but Minecraft and other Minecraf-clones is a must and LibreOffice for their works.
Install LibreWolf with uBlock Origin, for their default browser. Keep Pi-Hole as the default DNS server and if you or them don't have one, buy a Raspberry PI and install one. That is a critical step. Best 70 bucks you will ever spend.
So, I would suggest: try to get a throwaway computer, give the kid it and an USB with Linux and let them alone. Do not force anything, just give them the tools and a gentle push. Let curiosity take the wheel and be prepared to answer a lot of questions.
I have seen older children cry that they dont have an iPhone or they dont have the latest iPhone, or in a different region, that they dont have Android and of course the latest Android
These were older than 7 to be sure, but not sure when it starts.
you can set your kid up to be independent and a FOSS influencer but I dont think that always works.
Just to be clear the solution to this is not to buy them the latest phone every year. You’re describing consumerism, not parenting
Now he has a mostly-airgapped Thinkpad (with music, kiwix, music-experimantation stuff, programming things, and onlyoffice), and doesn't know the ipad's passcode.
The laptop has nftables set up so that only an ssh connection to my laptop works, which I use to update it, add content, and occasionally unblock it, when necessary.
Assist them with installing the interesting programs, from Inkscape to Celestia to Geany and Python.
But first you’ll have to decide what to do about youtube. Most kids won’t do anything else once they find it. Keep them away from adults as well. Probably no internet at first.
Compiling from source'll put hair on your chest
Be careful - even the most obvious things (to us) won't be to a small child. They'll need a bit of a guiding hand and/or someone to ask questions to. Linux isn't obvious and I wouldn't be too surprised if they run into hard edges at some point (sound driver stops working), without someone to actually go to for help the computer just becomes a brick.
- Someone who installed Linux on his beat-up laptop when he was 12 (*), and faced endless frustration with it. (My parents confiscated the laptop because I started hitting it lmao - later got a Windows desktop that "just worked")
* - I don't remember if it stopped being able to run windows (hardware too weak) or, if the windows partition had corrupted itself and I couldn't afford a new copy of windows.
A friend had a cool idea of asking their friends to be their child’s mentor in certain areas; “I’d like my child to learn music taste from you, would u take them under ur wing for this?” Then the child could call that “aunty/uncle” for advice; same for the tech mentor.
Maybe also Linux has continued to get easier and more reliable over the years but yes very valid point; ongoing care and support make all the difference like many things.
> also Linux has continued to get easier and more reliable
100% especially if you get some very common hardware it's arguably more reliable than windows nowadays lol
I would look for things that fit the child's interests rather than deciding a "mini-curriculum" in advance.
preloaded with tons of stuff my kid might find cool (depends on his or her interests which nobody knows better than I do), and with completely disabled internet access if kid will be using it without my supervision.
https://distrowatch.com/table-mobile.php?distribution=endles...
My kids are too young for it, but it lead me to find GCompris (especially with kiosk mode) which is for a much better fit for my kid's ages.
turning things on their head, i got started myself with coherent floppies borrowed from a friend and then later slackware linux downloaded off some ftp site i read about on usenet.
i have vague memories of downloading mint for the atari st and maybe something about it's c compiler, but not much.
Steam works amazingly well. And you can set up family controls.
Roblox works great using "Sober" I don't recommend letting them play Roblox but I'm stuck with it.
Minecraft and Curseforge work well, too.
Time Keeper Next is a great time limiting control system. If you have a little awareness of docker you can run it in a container and even access it on your phone through an admin gui. If you need help on that get my email from my profile and I'll happily share my details.
My kids 8,10,12 know how to use the command line. I'm really proud of them.
In my situation i need some type of "remote admin capability", since we are separated :-(
> Linux with free and open software is the goal and focus.
Notice the goal and focus has nothing to do with the kids and their learning and enrichment.
I went with Linux Mint XCFE
The issue for all parents is surely online safety, especially so for our youngest.
I managed to prevent the 10 year old acccessing porn and other non child friendly sites.
change the browser to the Mullvad Browser or and librewolf
---------------------
make sure you change the DNS in network manager and the the browser.
https://mullvad.net/en/help/dns-over-https-and-dns-over-tls
I used these:
family blocks: Ads, Trackers, Malware, Adult, Gambling
all blocks: Ads, Trackers, Malware, Adult, Gambling, Social media
family.dns.mulvad.net
all.dns.mullvad.net
----------------------- search engines:
Qwant provides a safe Junior search.
-----------------------
It takes time to set up.
once it is set up, become a kid and search for porn, gambling etc, to see if you as an adult can find those sites. if you do, block them
to block sites just add lines like these to ublock/my filters section.
If a child does click on them they are blocked and do not open. This also works if the child opens a link from a search engine. This way also removes the proceed button that allows you to bypass the restriction.
facebook.com##^html
youtube.com##^html
threads.com##^html
instagram.com##^html
tiktok.com##^html
pinterest.com##^html
twitter.com##^html
google.com##^html
bing.com##^html
reddit.com##^html
pornhub.com##^html
for fun; set up a few aliases, so they can update from the terminal.
This is great for kids, typing update into the terminal and watching it update && upgrade
In both school and work it’s overwhelmingly likely they will either be asked to do things in MacOS or Windows only. Make sure they’re proficient there first.
Linux as a personal OS, regardless of how passionate you are about it, is still a hobbyist platform. If your child becomes super into computers, then you can help them dive deeper down the rabbit hole.
But I wouldn’t drop them at the bottom of the rabbit hole prematurely. Just because your kid liked listening to an AC/DC song doesn’t mean they will want to dive immediately into the world of Brutal Deathcore.
Even if you consider this to be true (I don't), then... so what? They can just learn that there are other operating systems with different icons and different clock in the bottom right corner. They are kids man, they will learn fast. They won't unlearn Windows by using a Linux computer once in a while.
Unfortunately, the laptop has a Nvidia GPU, which conflicted with some of his games, and the gaming experience was all in all not very smooth. Eventually I gave up and went with Windows 10 LTSC -- surprisingly usable and bullshit-free (!), but, well, I don't think he has ever touched the terminal in this Windows system. I'd say after switching to Windows, his progress in Actually Learning Stuff About Computers has more or less stalled. It's mostly mindless gaming and Youtube these days (luckily, he's interested in sports exercises, athletes etc - so there's at least some "real-world related" information included).
Contemporary Linux can be quite confusing, but it is still miles ahead of Windows in encouraging the child's hands-on experience and exploration of the system. The GUI inconsistencies of current Windows are simply horrible IMO; back in the Win2k/XP days, it was actually quite a usable -- and, hackable! -- system; these days it's just an insanely huge, impossible-to-grasp mess. Also, I have yet to find a simple, easily understandable and modifiable solution for setting daily computer time restrictions for our son on Windows -- surprisingly, while there are a gazillion of small single-purpose apps in the Windows world, there doesn't appear to be too many options for parental control if you wish to avoid a Windows account altogether.
A lot of software engineers use Linux professionally of course (I do), so even that argument for choosing Windows or MacOS isn't very strong.
Kids commonly enjoy drawing, so it's likely a good idea to install Krita, which I'm not so sure is in the repos and might require a bit of imposition of hands.
Libreoffice will be installed by default, one might want to switch it out for something else for whatever reason.
Of the important things my father, who definitely is a "tech parent", did for me none of them have anything to do with him teaching me some piece of technology.
To be very frank, if the best thing you have done for your children is getting them to use Linux you are a total failure as a parent. To be fair to you, I do not believe you at all when you say this.
>Now my friend wants the same for their daughter who is 8 years old.
One of the actually most valuable thing my father did for me, definitely in terms of education outcome and career. Was getting me interested and spending time with me and explaining me things. The particulars do not matter, I can not remember them. It is totally irrelevant whether what Linux distro you use or what you teach them. What matters is that the parent is there, explains and encourages.
>Linux with free and open software is the goal and focus.
This is about an 8 year old.
Where are you getting this from?
Yup, that's the essence of parenting and should totally not be overlooked!
maybe a USB stick with a few distros on it, experimenting with installing them, including dual-booting.. a mix of distros spanning debian/redhat types, and kde/gnome types.. maybe a couple of live distros on their own USB stick.. having a virtual machine in the main install and learning about installing into them..
scratch and python..
I would also consider use of Gentoo as your Linux distribution to force learning about building packages and command line. I would avoid Arch as that might be too much of a challenge.
For me the goal would be forcing them to learn how this stuff works. I would emphasize scripting in the shell like bash scripts, JavaScript via node, Python, and possibly even Perl. This will take a lot of guidance to get this started because they will need some real world use cases about why they immediately benefit.
Once you get the OS finally set up create an ISO of it and put it on both a thumb drive and home file server. Give the kiddo root access to their own computer and let them really break stuff because you can restore from backup
Edit:
Immediately downvoted. This comment apparently caused a nerd god to shed a tear.
I learned a TON in the 80s as a kid by rummaging around with a retired Kaypro II running CP/M, breaking stuff by accident and fixing, and trying to hack the few games it had...
Ignoring the hilarity of this comment, that's not really how kids learn.
- "Dad, I'd like to draw a house on this screen"
- "Ok kiddo, first we have to download stage1 tarball from FTP mirror I know the name of without looking it up"
So then pretend its easy and get them an iphone.
I suspect the goal is you, as a parent, want to feel good to yourself that you are doing something positive for a child. If that's all this is really about then put them in a corner with some educational videos and give yourself a high-five.
In the days of DOS there was no (widespread) alternative.
You first need to capture their interest, otherwise they will see the shiny GUIs other people are using and wonder why they have to write long hard-to-remember commands instead of double-clicking on an icon.
I know this is complicated (it isn't), but parenting requires a dedicated investment of time. Or, just get them an iphone like most other parents and ignore them all day. Or maybe you can hire a surrogate parent to teach them since you have more important things to do.
This thread just reinforces, to me, that people who claim to write software skew highly autistic. Nothing I said here is complicated, but when you are a person with exceptionally low social intelligence spending more than 5 minutes a day with your kid might really feel the same as 25 hours.
I am not kidding when I say just get your kid an iphone and pat yourself on the back. You are either trying to teach your kid something directly with your time or you are just expecting them to want to figure it out themselves because you can't be bothered.
Do not pre-install, but make them part of the installation process. :P
As a first platform for a preteen?
edit: downvoted. Some of you all simply have no belief in or respect for the intelligence of children.
I didn't start programming until age 28, because my dad couldn't program and I didn't how to get started on my own. But, had he gotten me started on programming too I would have been programming from the command line as a preteen. I knew other preteens who were doing so.
That is why the comments here are so puzzling. Supposedly this a community of mostly software people. I take it most of these people commenting here lack the focus to figure any of this out themselves, much less teach a child to do it. There is even a comment in here from somebody not knowing what to teach a child and then being completely mystified about it once its pointed out.
My wife is a special education teacher. The common reality she sees (the normal parent) just plants a phone their kid's hands and ignores them all day. To most people that is a technology education, the hands off approach. I really get the feeling that is what most people are looking for something to throw at a child and then wash their hands of it, and the comments here further reinforce this assumption.
BTW didn't downvote you.
Her computer is old and we are no a budget... So now she is running Linux kicking and screaming. In all fairness there was no learning curve at all because she hardly knew how to use Windows in the first place. I showed her how to install applications from the command line and configure her games to run native or with Wine. She is happy camper, especially since her favorite games are running faster than on Windows.
What I really suspect is that people want their children to just be smart... on their own. If only there were some tools you could buy that would just do it for you.
The reality is children smart enough, at any age, to really do anything on a computer beyond gaming, social media, or ReactJS can learn anything, but it will take direct involvement from a parent to coach them through it. This is exactly the same if the kid is 8 or 18. There is no magic Linux set up that will just do it automagically.
Advertising companies are pushing DoH to remove control from you and give them the control, so be aware of that
> I would emphasize scripting in the shell like bash scripts
What would they want to script? What will they achieve? Why would they be interested in this?
True. My first naive attempt at content filtering for my kids was to use a family friendly DNS for the whole network. That's when I learned about chrome's secure DNS option, witch effectively bypasses my intended settings. I guess endpoint control is the only effective option. A mandatory http proxy could be used to filter by hostname too. None of them easy, and I'm supposed to be an expert. Normal people has little chance of implementing technical parental controls.
That's where you, the parent, are required to spend with the child to help them answer those same questions. The way to answer it is what problems do you have that you wish were solved... then show the kid that.
Because they will have no problems a computer can solve with bash scripts
FWIW this is what I recommend to adults wanting to get into the industry as well, I would just usually direct them from there towards automation, containerisation etc. For kids I would point out that they could host other things instead of WordPress, or even write their own..
Re: software setup, curriculum etc.. there are so many resources that target the Raspberry Pi that you can choose something that the child finds interesting.
You can do a desktop computer build if/when they outgrow the Raspberry Pi.
[1] https://www.uugear.com/product/raspikey-plug-and-play-emmc-m...