The main problem with Musk's proposed pay deal is that he still gets paid billions even if he continues to fail:
https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/musks-record-tes...
Tesla's sales target is now to have sold 20 million cars in total by 2035. That's fewer cars in total in what will then be the 32 year history of the company than Toyota sold in the last two years:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/05/business/elon-musk-tesla-...
Tesla's target used to be 20 million per year:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...
But Tesla's board doesn't care. They got theirs:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/13/business/tesla-stock-sale...
https://www.afr.com/technology/life-changing-wealth-stopped-...
They look dated, or weird, have patchy customer service, and are not even that long range anymore.
The recent model y looks terrible, like a duck.
And the ergonomics are cheap and dangerous.
Removing turn signal stalks, drive select stalks is dangerous. I like the idea of buttons, but turn signal buttons? buttons on a moving steering wheel? and the rest of the critical controls buried on a touchscreen? inside door handles? ugh.
They look terrible. They looked terrible when they came out 13, 8 and 5 years ago and they have aged very poorly.
Considering all 13 the same might be a stretch, but if you just take the 6 that are the same size as the id.4 you still end up with the same result.
Tesla on the other hand is famous for both making minor changes to their vehicles pretty much continuously and a bad history of parts availability.
I guarantee you that even if I don't like their car, their dealership will very likely have the part you need around the time you need it. It's not the only car-adjacent company that does something like this (Valeo for sure does it too, i worked with them also), but I'm pretty sure it's the only one who has an internal data scientist team working on it.
With Tesla at least you can pay $5 per day to use their tools (and you NEED their tools because they are up to date with cars firmware).
I'm sure once cars are EOL'd Tesla will release final version of diagnostics, like they did with Roadster - https://github.com/teslamotors/roadster
Yet (salute + support for ADF party) * touchy german history = auto non-grata.
And it seems that until now, Tesla sales in Eu are 30% less than last year [1]
There is more competition, finally.
[0]: https://www.benzinga.com/tech/25/01/43092840/tesla-struggles...
[1]: https://electrek.co/2025/11/03/tesla-tsla-keeps-getting-batt...
15,595 (Tesla) vs. 15,171 (BYD)
TSLA is not down 50% YTD. Its up this year so far.
Can you show the math that shows it down 50% YTD?
> The number of Teslas sold in the January-October period dropped 50.4% to 15,595 units, compared with the same period last year.
> The number of Teslas sold in the January-October period dropped 50.4% to 15,595 units, compared with the same period last year.
YoY is -50%.
Also, Elon should have stick to cars and rockets. His venturing into politics, and into media (with buying X) didn’t help him either. He got demystified, and demolished his image of a super focused half-einstein, half-edison. Now more of an half-Trump. And that didn’t help his car sales either.
I'll never buy a Tesla. Personally, Musk has delivered generational toxicity to their brand. And he now seeks to be rewarded for that.
The Board is dysfunctional.
Tesla did not release new cars, except for Cybertruck, for how long ? 5 years ? 10 years ?
Their lineup was great initially, and there was 0 competition. Now there is a lot of competition and their lineup did not change at all.
Their car business is dying. That's why they try to be an AI & Robotics company.
Edit: Here is a good link to follow the sales data - for many countries, it's reported daily. https://eu-evs.com/brandCharts/TESLA/ALL_DAILY/QoQ-Chart
2 years ago, while claiming that Tesla is the leader in AI, he launched a private ... AI company (xAI), for which he took Tesla GPU chips, and now he tries to make Tesla ... invest in said company, at a valuation (>B100$) that could only be compared to something like Dogecoin.
All of this, with your and my retirement money, since the stock is in the S&P.
I think they messed up all models (removing stalks/controls), and took successful and decent looking model y and made it look odd.
>Tesla did not release new cars, except for Cybertruck, for how long ? 5 years ? 10 years ?
Tesla is battery-limited, not demand-limited (delivery wave concern trolling from OP's headline aside). Adding models would only add complexity without meaningfully increasing revenue.
It helps to know basic fundamental facts about the company before commenting.
>Now there is a lot of competition and their lineup did not change at all.
See Sandy Munro's excellent breakdowns on the phenomenal pace of innovation at Tesla compared to competitors.
If they are not demand limited, can you explain why they slashed prices, are offering countless promotions which evaporated their margins, and are running the factories at 50% capacity ?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/cars/news/2025/10/28/tesla-lo...
I would not want to buy one of them for any of those reasons, regardless.
All cars have issues, but stats favour Tesla all while they are cheapest to repair.
But regardless, If someone really wants a sporty car, they can get a sporty car. The vast majority of car buyers don't really care. They care about things like space, comfort, features, and monthly payment.
The only niche I see remaining for hybrids/phev's is large cars in large countries with bad charging infrastructure (aka US, AU).
Im not sure how hybrid had anything to do with other features or comfort. Features like carplay/aa, heated wheel/seats, ventilated seats, automatic wipers/parking brake/high beams are all independent from drive train. I've never seen a manufacturer reserve them for ICE or electric-only.
Tesla is battery-limited, not demand-limited. Adding models would only add complexity without meaningfully increasing revenue.
It helps to know basic fundamental facts about the company.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45827800
I really wish people had any media literacy left. This brand of lying without lying is extremely common in modern media, and also extremely easy to spot once you know what to look for.
> KBA said Tesla sold 750 cars in Germany in October, down by 53.5% from a year earlier. The number of Teslas sold in the January-October period dropped 50.4% to 15,595 units, compared with the same period last year.
To be clear, you are suggesting that Tesla had no delivery "wave" between January and October? And that is the sign of a healthy company?
Per the article, this no longer seems to be the case.
This article is the same recycled misinformation that's been repeated for years. What's actually happening is that Tesla does regional delivery waves, which results in large month-to-month fluctuations. Nothing new here.
Yes Virginia, the media will distort information to sell eyeballs. Color me shocked!
You fell for the "numbers are real" conspiracy.
> The number of Teslas sold in the January-October period dropped 50.4% to 15,595 units, compared with the same period last year.
Someone is still giving him money for some reason.
Traded the car in a couple months ago. It was ok, as a car, but I hated what it had become synonymous with so it was worth the financial hit to give up a paid off car. Turns out the new Mach-e which replaced it is better in every way.
Might be some fanboys left, but a bunch of folks who might have fallen into that category in the past have been driven away by Musk’s unconscionable activities.
If you think that's true then people aren't buying a quality vehicle they're buying an ideological badge.
If you don't think that's true then people aren't buying them because they're not quality vehicles.
You're right that most people don't want to buy an ideological badge. They want a quality vehicle. The problem is that Musk turned Tesla into an ideological badge.
Off the top of your head, can you think of a single political remark made by the owners of Audi, Toyota, or Hyundai?
(Tbh, I'm amazed that the right in the US seem willing to give him a pass on that.)
2) Even if he only drives away the left wing half of the population that still halves his customer base.
Let me be clear about my point though, Tesla's are _not_ quality vehicles, and given a choice, consumers with money will not select them. Politics do not enter into this equation outside of Hacker News.
You know what he has said. You know what he has done. It just doesn’t bother you. I find it hard to believe you don’t know what this is about.
I feel there has been shift or perhaps we were cringe tech bros from the start.
Trump earns the ire of his political opposition. Framing that ire as delusional is itself delusional.
I don't know who you're addressing. Lots of people, me included, don't like the conspiracy minded politicization of his fortune but still think the cars are pretty great. Seems like a boring opinion that wouldn't be controversial, but we still find ourselves subtweeted anyway.
(Edit: three downvotes and a Godwin's Law reply drop within seconds, as expected. Seriously folks there are 125k people who work for that company, must everything about it be judged entirely on the last twelve months of one guys mania?)
It's like centerists. It's funny how when you push at them they reveal more and more right-leaning opinions.
Libertarians should, ostensibly, probably have a fairly split voting history, but yet it's always much more right-leaning too.
The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
So... are we cancelling the guy for his opinions or engaging in praxis trying to eliminate his ideology's funding? Very different moral calculus, IMHO, and neither seems very well justified (or implemented[1]) by the attitude I'm seeing in these debates.
[1] I mean, downvoting your fellow lefty traveller in a tiff over the car he drives might feel good but it's clearly not having the desired effect of changing Musk's politics. I am not your enemy, basically. Why are you fighting with the guy who's already voting for your candidates?
Mostly, I suspect, you're just angry and wanting to blow off steam. Which is fine! But not likely to make either of us feel better.
He's plainly not as you wish him to be. It's much better to simply see him as he is.
This is how he is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc
It's not great.
Again, the collision of your personal politics with what you want to achieve seems really muddled here. What do you achieve by yelling at me on HN, exactly?
And you don't like that. And I don't like that either. But I'm not going to judge him any more severely than I do anyone here. And yeah, I think the cars are pretty great, and the people that make them (to first approximation, none of them are Musk!) deserve to have jobs making successful cars.
At the end of the day you need to share society with people you hate. And some of them make products you need or want. This isn't a winnable fight you're engaging in.
again, he literally threw two Sieg Heils. I don't see that every day.
I think some of the problem is that people aren't exposed to enough drunk uncles to know how awful the electorate can be. Again, we're barely a half century removed from living in a literal[1] segregated society.
But the drunk uncles are out there, and you are doing business with them all the time. Picking fights over cars within your own community of like minded people is a shibboleth/proxy argument that does nothing but hurt your cause.
[1] Literally literal, in this case.
> taking everything at the worst possible interpretation
wouldn't the "worst possible interpretation" here also equal the simplest possible interpretation, which is that he did two Sieg Heils because he's a Nazi sympathizer?
> you are doing business with them all the time
I'm really not generally in the habit of supporting the business interests of Nazis, no.
just to be clear, if my uncle were a Nazi he would not be welcome in my life, in my home, nor near any of my family. I'm not sure why you're going to so much effort to excuse this behavior.
It is clearly not, though. It's arguably evocative of one. There is an actual form to the thing, it was a military gyration, and people taught it. You can even read the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_salute It is static at the end, being held with palm down and arm stretched forward. It does not begin at the heart, as Musk performed, nor swing sideways.
Obviously you don't care about this minutiae, but it's important if you want to hang your argument on "literally a Nazi salute".
What you and I both agree on is that this was intended to evoke the idea. Where we differ is how you want to interpret it. You, I guess, think it means signaling a desire to repeat the holocaust, or something maybe a little less horrifying.
I think it's pretty clear he's wanting to create exactly the argument we're having. To wit, this was a troll, and you fell for it, and now all us lefties look like Ivermectin snorting loons because real people OBVIOUSLY know that Musk isn't a nazi.
Musk chose his actions and now he gets to live the consequences.
There really is no point in trying to excuse or rationalize it.
You're just saying you want to hate him because you want to hate him, and by extension I'm not allowed to (there is "no point in") trying to explain my contrary opinion because you disagree with it.
It's not a very HN comment. And I really don't think you're internal moral compass is consistent on this, again citing all the drunk uncles you do business with without shame.
In the end, Tesla is just a car company. You can buy an EV from a company that isn't run by a "drunk uncle". And if you're invested in Tesla, diversify your investments (that's just good financial sense).
Teslas aren't exactly cutting edge anymore. For example, Tesla's charge curve is quite weak compared to other EVs:
You replied directly to a comment where I tried to engage substantially and with external links in a discussion about whether or not he was "literally" doing a Nazi salute.
You ignored that part in favor of a "actions have consequences" quip. Then when I called you out you decided to change the subject to something that amounts to "Well Teslas aren't any good anyway!".
To be blunt: that's a taking-your-toys-and-going-home argument, and HN deserves better. The whole point of this interminable subthread is that I'm trying to challenge your assumptions. And it seems like I'm doing it pretty well, given the way you're deflecting. Maybe you'd find it more productive to do some introspection?
It isn't a quip. It's a practical reality.
The brand damage is real. Musk has cost Tesla a lot of sales.
> "Well Teslas aren't any good anyway!".
They aren't that good. Other EVs are indeed better.
I'm generally not a fan of "cancel culture" but in this case I think a boycott is the only ethical choice.
Yes, unfortunately.
Build a thousand bridges...
No longer are we going to tolerate the intolerant. If you are willing to look past the moral failings, you are seen as part of the problem and should expect consequences. Social dynamics are at work
> (Edit: three downvotes and a Godwin's Law reply drop within seconds, as expected. Seriously folks there are 125k people who work for that company, must everything about it be judged entirely on the last twelve months of one guys mania?)
It seems the answer is a definitive yes, reflect on why this is.
Also, it's far more than 12 months. He's been manic for far longer, if not his entire life. We just saw the unfiltered version for the last 12 months. Now we know
Hmm...
>No longer are we going to tolerate the intolerant. If you are willing to look past the moral failings, you are seen as part of the problem and should expect consequences. Social dynamics are at work
The woke left forcing ideological conformity loses them a lot of support from the center-left, which turns out is not a winning electoral strategy. At which point one must wonder if the wokeness is just performative and virtue signaling, rather than an attempt to gain actual political power.
I agree with none of these policies. I also just disagree with the woke left's focus on identity politics, because I see it as a losing battle, electorally. I prefer the left to focus on labor and economic issues, which apply broadly to all, regardless of their identity.
I believe in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and insofar as it informs my political views, food shelter and jobs are far more important issues than identitarian issues. Solve the basic needs first, and when everyone has a fair piece of our wealthy country's economic pie, I suspect we will find the identity issues are easier to address, with broader support.
My guess is the only difference is you agree with conservative identity politics and not liberal identity politics, so one is seen as “natural and normal” and the other seems “manufactured and forced on people.” I could be wrong, but that is generally my experience in these conversations.
Yes.
> Or do you think this is purely a problem on the left?
I am not a member of the right wing parties, so I have no pull with them. I also think they are less likely to change.
>My guess is the only difference is you agree with conservative identity politics and not liberal identity politics
Your guess is wrong. I think all identity politics are bad politics until we solve basic human needs stuff like feed and house everyone and jobs that pay a living wage for anyone who wants one.
I get it, I don't fit into your preconcieved box, but the boxes are designed by the oligarchy who wants to keep us in separate boxes, so we can't unite.
Also in my experience, most people who keep grinding their axe against “the woke left” are not as moderate/above party politics as they make themselves out to be.
It's not about forcing conformity, it's about having basic human decency. Right-wingers belittle and dehumanize so many groups and people it's hard to keep track
see also: Paradox of tolerance
> turns out is not a winning electoral strategy
umm, did you look at the election results from yesterday?
#1 economy (i.e. emotionally driven tariffs)
#2 people don't like seeing children and neighbors disappeared by masked thugs (i.e. due-process and rule-of-law)
>#1 economy (i.e. emotionally driven tariffs)
>#2 people don't like seeing children and neighbors disappeared by masked thugs >(i.e. due-process and rule-of-law)
None of which are the identity politics issues that the woke left forces on people, and expects ideological conformity on.