ElementaryOS – Thoughtful, capable and ethical replacement for Windows/macOS(elementary.io)
104 pointsby donutshop2 days ago20 comments
  • wsgeorge2 days ago
    I fell in love with elementaryOS when I first learned about it c. 2013, and followed it closely (used to read commits weekly) for perhaps a year. It was one of the first open source projects I really loved. But I eventually went back to Ubuntu because I was newish to Linux and I needed something that Just Worked™, without the funny business.

    I eventually fell out of love with elementaryOS when the team seemed to double down hard on some unpopular design decisions wrt window control buttons/behaviour, for instance.

    I always felt that they had taken on more than they could chew, and all the good will of their community wasn't going to change that fact. To this day I maintain that the project should have just been Pantheon, the Desktop Environment. The team seems to have strong opinions about UX, and that's where most of that matters.

    I'm not the only one who thought of that, and the team's justifications for their decision to roll their own distro never came across as strong.

    I've since moved on (to macOS and Ubuntu one the side), but once in a while I browse the official sub for the latest. I've never shaken off that feeling that the really talented founders could have spent their energy more wisely.

  • bsimpson2 days ago
    Elementary has been around for a long time. From what I recall, it tries to ape the Mac style on Linux the same way that KDE has been accused of aping Windows.

    The original founder (Cassidy James Blaede) is now a designer for GNOME: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJq8Cq9LixE

    I wonder why this is on the front page today.

    • taejavu2 days ago
      It’s on the front page because Apple dropped the ball so hard with Tahoe that people are willing to entertain the thought of switching to just about anything other than macOS
      • port11a day ago
        It's very tempting… but first our Logitech peripherals would have to work reliably after sleep. I can put up with the other nonsense. Not being able to use the keyboard and mouse is what's preventing the home computer from being a Linux machine.
        • taejavu19 hours ago
          I have experienced none of those specific issues myself, yet I still feel like you have described my overall Linux experience perfectly
    • noosphr2 days ago
      OP probably had to update Windows today.

      It's a weird world where KDE out of the box is more usable than Windows.

      I gave the wrong laptop to my mother a few months back and she only told me when she finished banking that the windows menu looked funny (Like the hacker one you put on the family computer when you were 12.) it was KDE. Usually she asks for help at least once on windows for getting the wifi connected.

      The year of desktop Linux was 5 years ago and we didn't even notice.

      • carl_dr2 days ago
        /r/thathappened

        She had an account on the wrong laptop?

        • noosphr2 days ago
          All my pcs have a locked down guest/guest account which gets nuked on logout.
        • 553468907542358a day ago
          Go back to reddit
        • sgc2 days ago
          That is such an awkward comment and not really worthy of hn. Have you never logged into a bank website?
    • desiderantes2 days ago
      One of the two founders. The other one is Danielle Foré, still running the project.
  • raffael_dea day ago
    Isn't it a bit misleading to compare this to Windows or macOS, when it is actually Ubuntu with a preinstalled window manager, like Gnome or KDE, and it just looks a little like macOS out of the box? From the web-site I couldn't tell why I would consider it over established options like Linux Mint. To qualify as a replacement I would expect it to run native binaries. LibreOffice for example is a replacement for Office as it can handle xlsx and docx etc.
  • Qem2 days ago
    IIRC ElementaryOS had the distinction of using mostly Vala/Genie for development of distro specific software. Is that still the case?
    • janc_2 days ago
      They certainly still recommend it. Too bad the evolution & development of Vala itself has stagnated mostly.
      • actionfromafar2 days ago
        IMHO they missed the boat - they should have pushed Objective C and later Swift. Lots of Mac / iOS developers were curious about Elementary when it was new.
  • hecifato2 days ago
    Elementary was one of the first Linux distros I installed back in 2020. Eventually I moved on to other distros and DE’s. I was hopeful for Elementary eventually becoming THE Linux distro I would recommend people but it hasn’t happened yet, and I don’t know if it ever will.

    I remember Elementary being big on UX, design, creating a universal app store for Linux, and providing a sane default type of experience. Pretty much all of that fizzled out over the past 5 years. GNOME and Plasma both leapfrogged Pantheon as a DE. Ubuntu, Debian, Mint, and Fedora are all far easier recommends over Elementary.

    • SOLAR_FIELDS2 days ago
      My outside reading: there were about 2-3 key people driving the project at that time. My understanding is that right around that time or shortly thereafter there was a falling out of some sort between two of the key people, one left, and the momentum just tanked after that. Note that this is just an outsiders perspective gained from reading blog posts from the org and watching release cadences
  • rckt2 days ago
    Last time I tried it there was no way to upgrade between versions. One had to reinstall the os to upgrade.

    But maybe this changed.

    • sprkwda day ago
      This too is the blocker for me using it on the regular.
  • themafia2 days ago
    > We review all AppCenter apps to ensure they’re properly using permissions

    Who is "we?" How is that team selected? Are their decisions public? What is the review or appeal process like?

  • TheAceOfHearts2 days ago
    I'm not sure if anything about this has changed since I last tried ElementaryOS an unknown number of years ago, but one of the issues I remember encountering was that applications that weren't built-in had inconsistent styling. I think you get a better more consistent and featureful experience just by using KDE.

    Even the list of applications on AppCenter is woefully limited, compared to using Flatpack and being able to access the full repertoire of Linux Desktop applications.

    • bsimpson2 days ago
      Isn't that just a Linux problem, where someone could be using GTK or Kirigami or Iced for widgets?

      Most Mac developers use Cocoa/SwiftUI, so they get whatever widgets the UXEs at Apple have produced. Adobe famously did their post-2000 UIs in Java, so they have a nonstandard design system; you can tell they don't use Cocoa just by looking at their apps.

      Since there's no Apple to make an official toolkit for Linux, each developer uses whatever he wants, which means this app might use the GTK Save button, whereas that one uses Kirigami.

  • yunnpp2 days ago
    Cannot recommend. The software center immediately broke itself into a loop of god-knows-what error that rendered itself unable to update the system. The system generally suffered from poor usability as well. Cannot comment much further because I didn't use it very long. I paid $20 for it and wish the project well, but it's a pass from me for the time being.
    • SyneRyder21 hours ago
      Similar issues here with software center. There are some updates that continue working fine, but I'll often have to drop to the command line and use apt to do the full system update... which is not very "elementaryOS-like", when you consider how much it focuses on usability and UI and making a system where users won't need the command line.

      EDIT: Tried again today, and the specific error I get when trying to update via Software Center, which then prevents any further updating:

      http:// archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-updates/main amd64 libsmbclient amd64 2:4.15.13+dfsg-0ubuntu1.8 is not (yet) available (404 Not Found)

      I've mostly stayed on elementaryOS 7.x, which is actually the best Linux I've ever tried for my use case. It's the closest Linux to what I would like my computer to feel like, and for a while I was running it almost as a daily driver for about 50% of my work (with Windows / mac for the rest). But the elementaryOS 8.x series was far too buggy on my system, even the dock was unusable for too long (though apparently now resolved). Having to reinstall the OS with each major version is awkward too, even when I run my Linux installs off a USB stick for easy switching.

    • naasking2 days ago
      I recently installed it on a 13 year old old MacBook, haven't had any issues.
      • literatepeople2 days ago
        I am still a sponsor or elementary and used it for years, and often the first few months are fine until you hit a wall or need to upgrade it. recently switched to Fedora and have been much happier.
  • chakintosh2 days ago
    This seems like a great OS to install on a child's computer
    • pndya day ago
      Years ago I installed it on my sister's computer as Windows replacement. She was initially happy but soon started to complain that it was hard for her to use, apps would freeze and graphic artifacts would remain on the screen in similar way as on XP once. In the end we went with Xubuntu because we thought that reinstalling as "upgrade" is not worth it.

      It's a stop-gap for those who were using OSX and not a permanent solution, or something for people who want to try Linux but want a really easy way. But then, there are better managed and newbie friendly distributions already.

    • poly2it2 days ago
      What makes an OS great for children?
      • BoredPositron2 days ago
        I guess the 'Screen Time & Limits' app featured prominently further down the page.
  • nipperkinfeet2 days ago
    Elementary OS is stuck in 2011, offering limited customization options. I remember having hard time adding desktop icons. These days, much superior distributions are available. Examples include Mint, EndeavourOS and Fedora...
    • DaSHacka2 days ago
      But are any of those "aggressively queer"? Didn't think so.

      Checkmate, Linux users

      • bigyabai2 days ago
        Even as a happy Linux user and gay person, I have to admit that much of GNOME's design philosophy is queer to me.
    • Wowfunhappy2 days ago
      Customization is great, but what's even better is when the defaults are just perfect to begin with...
  • StopDisinfo9102 days ago
    Did Elementary change designer?

    This version seems to have flaws I didn’t see in the old announcements. Spacing and padding are a bit inconsistent and sometimes a bit strange. Font sizing can be weird and alignment is hit and miss especially when icons and text are involved.

    Clearly these are details but I’m wondering if they lost man power on these points. I still greatly appreciate the project ambition and am impressed by what they have managed to achieve.

  • kingforaday2 days ago
    Serious question. What does the project mean by ethical replacement?

    The main webpage makes no further declaration around it for deeper understanding. Nothing in support pages or in developer resources. Anyone else familiar with the project that could describe why that needed to be called out?

  • stavros2 days ago
    What's a popular rolling release distro that's fairly stable, but also modern, for my dad's computer? He just wants a good balance of "things won't break" and "things will get updated".

    Ubuntu is ok, but maybe pop!OS or something else is better for him?

    • haunter2 days ago
      Fedora Kinoite https://fedoraproject.org/atomic-desktops/kinoite/

      I really do think that immutable distros are the future especially if you want something that don’t break. And imo KDE is arguably the best DE right now, that is if you believe DEs should follow the WinNT era UX principles.

      But there is a version with GNOME too or Cosmic

      https://fedoraproject.org/atomic-desktops/silverblue/

      https://fedoraproject.org/atomic-desktops/cosmic/

      • n4bz0r2 days ago
        Isn't the state (apps' data in this case) the biggest problem with updates of any kind? State can't be immutable and is the easiest to break.

        I can certainly see how containerizing apps and using "layered" FS solves a class of problems, but I highly doubt this alone would be incentive enough for the major OSes to go that way. I do agree it would be neat to see such developments, though.

      • Alupis2 days ago
        Been rocking Kinoite for 2 years now - several major Fedora release upgrades, and zero breakage. I do weird stuff in my "pet" containers (using distrobox), and I love how my base system remains indestructible no matter how much I goof around.

        Immutable is indeed the future. The moment a user installs something on a traditional mutable OS, it's configuration/environment drifts from the "base", making any system update or application install a potential conflict. After you install something on a traditional mutable OS, there's often no way to get back to the base without a OS reinstall (programs don't clean up after themselves, they change system settings, environment, more/worse).

        Immutable operating systems solve this by having an immutable base image. Everyone running, for instance, Kinoite 42.20251011.0 all have exactly the same base. Users then can "layer" applications on top of the base image, sort of like a dockerfile. If something breaks, you just remove that application (layer) and it's like it never happened. Everyone having the same exact base image also means updates can be much more thoroughly tested, and confidently rolled-out to users.

        Note, "Immutable" doesn't mean you can't save files or install things - it just means you cannot mutate the base OS image. There's always a "known good configuration" to go back to.

        You're also encouraged to use "pet" containers for things like development - where you will install all sorts of weird system packages, libraries, tools, etc. without fear of polluting or breaking your system.

        An immutable system + pet containers means your system will always be stable. Really neat.

        • sbrother2 days ago
          That sounds great. How well does the base OS + "pet" containers work with all the crazy dependencies you need to do modern ML work, e.g. some exact combination of nvidia drivers + CUDA + torch + other random stuff? That's the pain point I'd be motivated enough to solve that I'd switch distros.
          • Alupis2 days ago
            Your "pet" containers basically become your traditional OS, in a way. They use filesystem overlays, so your container can see all of the files on your system, plus it's own layered files, ie. each container has it's own "view" of the filesystem.

            You can install anything inside your "pet" containers that you would normally install on your actual system. The container keeps everything tidy and self-contained. I have a container for development, another for music/DAW, another for certain games that needed weird deps.

            Fedora Kinoite/Silverblue come with `Toolbx`[1] preinstalled, but I found `distrobox`[2] to be more flexible for my needs. I layered distrobox onto my base image, and it just works.

            Many GUI apps are available via Flatpaks, and can be installed directly or via the Software Center. You can enable Flathub[3] as a source, so there's a ton of available software, including Steam, Chrome, Firefox, Discord, Spotify and more. Flatpaks are also sandboxed and self-contained, so they can't pollute/break your system either.

            [1] https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-silverblue/toolb...

            [2] https://distrobox.it/

            [3] https://flathub.org/en

          • TingPing2 days ago
            nvidia drivers are annoying since Fedora doesn’t distribute them. But once installed it works well enough.
      • stavros2 days ago
        Thanks! I do love KDE, it's my daily driver.

        Exit: OK immutable looks really interesting, thank you.

        • baobun2 days ago
          Immutable is promising and Kinoite great but just heads up that since it's Fedora based you still have their major-release-upgrade cycle to follow.

          There are rolling immutable/atomic distros but Kinoute is not one.

          • Alupis2 days ago
            FWIW, Kinoite will auto-update itself (the base image gets an update nearly every day).

            While Fedora technically isn't a rolling release distro, it is very "bleeding edge" and it's major release cycle is quite frequent. With the Atomic (Immutable) flavors, major releases are an easy upgrade - just click the "Upgrade" button then reboot without fear of anything breaking.

    • pSYoniK2 days ago
      I put Zorin OS on my dads old laptop 5 years ago and I think the only time I got a question was when someone setting up his new internet was digging through network settings but hadnt used any Linux distro before. Even then it was a 5 min call. Its a very Windows-like experience and I've noticed most parents really just write an email, browse the web and maybe consume media. All of those can occur in a browser.
    • jaidan2 days ago
      I’ve been daily driving Linux Mint for about 4 years. It’s usable and stable with standard software packages and can also be tweaked in the Linux way if you so need it.

      Another person mentioned Ubuntu if coming from Mac. I haven’t considered it before but they’re probably right.

      I was using Mac at home, but Windows at work. So moving to Mint was easy.

      Ubuntu was OK on high performance hardware but when they introduced snaps nothing worked so I moved to Mint.

      HTH

      • stavros2 days ago
        Hm that's interesting as an alternative to Ubuntu, thanks!
      • andrepd2 days ago
        Also recommend Mint, but it's not a rolling release like OP asked.
    • jamesgill2 days ago
      Are you sure he wants a rolling release?

      If so, then Manjaro.

      If not, I always say:

      From Windows? > Mint.

      From MacOS? > Ubuntu.

      The answer is almost always one of those two for non-technical people.

      • stavros2 days ago
        Basically he doesn't bother updating his computer, so I want something that will auto-update to fairly modern versions, that's why I mentioned stability as a requirement.

        What's wrong with rolling release?

      • baobun2 days ago
        Manjaro is a mess. EndeavourOS is similar (both are Arch derivatives) but less breaky and something I'd recommend more.
    • baobun2 days ago
      My two recommendations would be openSUSE Tumbleweed or EndeavourOS. In particular Tumbleweed is underappreciated around here I think.

      BTW, what makes you look for rolling-release distro specifically?

      Ubuntu and pop are not rolling release. Neither is Fedora.

      • stavros2 days ago
        Basically my dad never upgrades his computer, I have automatic updates on but OS upgrades aren't done automatically, so I wanted rolling release to get past that. What's the issue with rolling release?
        • baobun2 days ago
          Makes sense since there won't be any release-upgrade process every 6/12/24/whatever months. You'll still have obviously have updates though.

          Asking since none of the examples you were considering are actually rolling, it wasn't clear what you're after.

          • stavros2 days ago
            Yes but those updates can be automated, right? I'm just trying to avoid the release update.
            • baobun2 days ago
              Sure and sounds reasonable. Then you will have to force reboots Windows style - having the same old kernel running for months or years on an online desktop can be hazardous if he never shuts it down.
    • pndya day ago
      If he comes with such requirements then I'd stick with LTS releases as system base and flatpak programs to keep stuff updated frequently. And if he wants a familiar to Windows environment then Zorin would do the trick out of the box.
    • rahimnathwani2 days ago
      Fedora isn't a rolling release but updates pretty often.
    • janc_2 days ago
      Rolling release & stable are mutually exclusive…
      • Wowfunhappy2 days ago
        GP probably means stable in the sense of "not buggy" as opposed to "won't change".
        • stavros2 days ago
          Yes, exactly. A lag of a few months is fine if it means the software doesn't have huge bugs.
    • zeech2 days ago
      openSUSE Tumbleweed sounds like it would fit the bill. It's both rolling and has the benefit of having btrfs/snapper support baked in by default, so it's super easy to roll back anything if it breaks.
      • stavros2 days ago
        Interesting, thank you, though I'm a bit wary of btrfs.
      • lproven2 days ago
        I was going to make the same recommendation.
  • doug_durham2 days ago
    I find the description of the project to be patronizing. "Just the apps you need"? How do you know what I need? What about the battery life I need, or the excellent touchpad support that I need? Most distros drop the ball on those fundamental things.
  • 2 days ago
    undefined
  • dang2 days ago
    These seem to be the major related threads. Others?

    Elementary OS 7 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34598987 - Jan 2023 (92 comments)

    Elementary OS 6.1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29627193 - Dec 2021 (142 comments)

    Elementary OS 6 Odin - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28130560 - Aug 2021 (319 comments)

    Elementary OS 6 beta - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27001736 - May 2021 (69 comments)

    Cheers to 10 Years - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26658317 - April 2021 (77 comments)

    Elementary OS 5.1 Hera - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21719028 - Dec 2019 (190 comments)

    Elementary OS – Fast, open, privacy-respecting replacement for Windows and macOS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18472018 - Nov 2018 (421 comments)

    Elementary OS 5 Juno Is Here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18236240 - Oct 2018 (15 comments)

    Switching from macOS: Developer Environment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12877045 - Nov 2016 (172 comments)

    Switching from macOS: The Basics - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12853531 - Nov 2016 (593 comments)

    Elementary OS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12830761 - Oct 2016 (386 comments)

    Elementary OS Loki 0.4 Stable Release - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12465763 - Sept 2016 (63 comments)

    Elementary OS Freya Released - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361477 - April 2015 (87 comments)

    Elementary OS 0.3 “Freya” is released - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9359722 - April 2015 (62 comments)

    Elementary OS Freya Beta 2 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9049592 - Feb 2015 (43 comments)

    Myths about ElementaryOS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7864397 - June 2014 (53 comments)

    ElementaryOs Luna released - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6193148 - Aug 2013 (296 comments)

    Elementary OS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2781891 - July 2011 (79 comments)

    Elementary OS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2091736 - Jan 2011 (15 comments)

  • renewiltord2 days ago
    Oh I remember using this years ago. It was pretty good. My memory always confuses it with enlightenment which had fancy compositing on a crappy computer in the early 2000s which I loved it for.
  • valunord2 days ago
    [flagged]
    • outcoldman2 days ago
      Can anybody explain what is behind this statement? Tried to google, could not find much.
      • pndya day ago
        I remember people on mastodon saying that project leader went too much political by focusing on gender and identity while actual system development was pushed away. But since my journey with elementary was over years ago I didn't care that much. Maybe check other search engines and go with "elementaryos controversial" or similar words
      • outcoldmana day ago
        FYI: found information here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30611748
      • actionfromafar2 days ago
        Queer people are terrorists now, don’t you read your GOP newsletter? /s
        • 553468907542358a day ago
          Can't even murder political opponents without being called a terrorist. Damn the right!
    • saubeidla day ago
      ????
  • hubrix2 days ago
    I am wondering why no one is using the wonderful LLM coding tools to cut branches of open source apps rewriting them for consistent UI. From my experience with them so far this is a task that they would be really good at especially if the underlying codebase has decent test coverage.