The 1 trillion dollar package the board is offering Musk is a joke. They need to find a new CEO.
Problem for Tesla is that Musk is the reason it has a 200 P/E ratio (and increasing at that). Without Musk, they are likely to go all the way down to a 15 P/E or less ratio in my opinion because they're decreasing in growth. That'd make them go from being worth $1 trillion today to just $75 billion instantly.
I don't own TSLA but it could crash the market if it drops that low.
The reason for the ratio is because he overpromises and lies all the time. The valuation is now hinging on Tesla being a leader in robotics when Musk doesn't even understand what sensor fusion is. But Tesla's astronomical valuation is a liability for them because it's the result of Musk defrauding both Tesla's customers and investors. The big number looks great but it's based on a fantasy.
TSLA is about 2% of the s&p. If they crash I think the market will shrug that off easily. Tesla's (lack of) success is not tied to the health of the larger market, and everyone knows they are overvalued so there would be no surprise factor either.
Heck, the backup cross traffic detection only alerts when a car or pedestrian is already crossed and out of view. It’s absurdly bad.
If he cared at all, you'd see a better repair process with them. There is a Tesla repair hub in Calgary where I live, and I had to wait 5 weeks for them to see my car (including an un-explained situation where they bumped me, despite me being concerned about a safety issue). I eventually took it to an EV repair shop who did it for half of what Tesla quoted because, FFS, the world's most valuable auto company is "Resource Constrained" with mechanics.
Seriously, how can they afford a trillion on a CEO when they are parking expensive Cybertrucks on the front lawn of their Calgary store?
I still love driving my car (a 2019 Model 3), but I have no faith that Tesla will actually improve on it with their current leadership structure.
1. Promise investors FSD/AI/robots are coming next year, sell them your stock
2. ???
3. Profit!
The fun thing is you don't have to sell any Cybertrucks as long as people are buying your stock!
They are hoping Musk can repeat his roadshow magic and drive an insane multiple on the dream.
The relationship between dealerships and OEMs is complicated, incestuous and fundamentally adversarial.
That they went with online sales only was an incredibly smart move and they cut out an unwanted middleman. I’ve been following Tesla for a long time. I made a small fortune investing in them in 2012.
The folks at Tesla Motor Club were very happy to buy directly from Tesla.
Ever notice how defense of corruption is often described as something being a "genius move" by one company, totally discounting that the same move is illegal for all their competitors. Usually, to mask the open corruption, this is then masked as a detail of some law, or multiple laws. A law which when looked at is really complicated and detailed and "just happens" to target every competitor except one company?
The detail in question is that almost all US states prohibit "direct sales", meaning car manufacturers have to sell through independent dealerships. So technically you can buy a Ford online, just not from Ford, you have to go through a dealership. The exception in a number of states is that you can buy a car from the manufacturer if there are no dealerships ... and Tesla never had any dealerships. The other car manufacturers can't sell online, because their dealerships are independent, and they are legally forced to treat them equally. They'd have to force dealerships into bankruptcy and only then they'd be allowed to sell online. Not the dealerships in a particular state, mind you, all of them, across the entire US.
Of course, other vendors that are in the same position as Tesla, don't get this advantage, for example BYD, but also a number of European and even an Indian automaker that only have dealerships in a very limited number of states, and should, in theory, be allowed to sell cars directly in most states. Well, they're not allowed. Trade deals, tariffs, ... but somehow they can't do it (perhaps this is why Elon Musk joined Trump, if so, it would make Musk and Trump not just corrupt, but incompetent at corruption, given the title of this ycombinator story)
See how the "genius move" of Tesla really works? It is not at all the decision to sell online. The genius move of Tesla is exactly the opposite of what you claim: Tesla opposes online sales of cars, and for this to be enforced legally. Against everyone but Tesla, of course.
Of course, anyone who has gone to a Tesla demonstration knows that there is zero actual difference between a car dealership where you check out a physical car and then order on a computer over the internet with a salesperson assisting, and a Tesla demonstration where you check out a physical car and then order on a computer over the internet with a salesperson assisting.
And, obviously, yes, Musk is still lobbying and has lobbied [1] (ie. paid money to politicians) to keep things this way. Of course, other car manufacturers also lobby. I guess Tesla pays better.
[1] "Tesler, great buy!" Trump https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/elon-musk/trump-musk-tesla-whit...
The fact that they took longer AND were more expensive than local providers was ridiculous, and certainly not a good look compared to my experiences at Toyota with my Sienna.
-edit- (That and the fact that they shouldn't be resource constrained when the most valuable car company in the world)
Are they faced with picking someone else also admitting Musk's magic is at an end for them and thus at the same time triggering a return to reality?
I think the old model y looks great. It was a success!
But they messed with it and the new one looks like a duck.
in comparison the model 3 update looked ok.
But for me the relentless march to remove controls from the car is the worst.
It started with no dashboard on the model 3, (crowded central display off to side).
But then got worse and worse.
No stalks makes it unbuyable to me. No drive select stalk (it will guess), no turn signal stalks. Critical controls on the touchscreen. Small targets that are hard to hit in a moving car.
It looks minimal in the showroom, but day to day it makes you a worse driver. It is techno poverty.
The first thing I thought of when I saw that pay package being floated was the current state that Tesla is in. That's the primary reason such a package seems so fucking bonkers.
Well, color me just absolutely shocked.
Now I wonder if it's tied to any future of the company at all. It seems to be a Musk stock: if you want Musk have more power to do whatever he's doing, pump TSLA.
[1] Seriously, it's hard to be lacking in innovation when other brands still don't even have walk-up unlock or 360° cameras, much less drive themselves around or launch like rockets. And the repairability thing is a meme from back when they had part production lag due to crazy scaling. Getting a Tesla fixed now (and yes, I have) is like "click three buttons in your app and come in tomorrow".
... Wait, seriously? Like, you have to _use the touch screen to put it in reverse_? That can't possibly be the case.
Also, all the new models have an auto shift functionality so you don’t even really have to use any buttons at all.
This seems utterly insane. It’s already annoying that tapping somewhere on a phone screen has a different effect depending on whether I win or lose the race against some UI update. I do not want my rather heavy vehicle to move in a different direction depending on which way the computer thinks I want it to move.
In practice, everything I've seen is that it works well, and predictably does what you expect it to do. And if it doesn't, you are one swipe away from fixing that.
It's the only non-luxury brand I'm aware of with all of those features. Who are you thinking about?
Also you're misdirecting: "keyless entry" isn't remotely the same as "your phone is your key".
And the "level 2 ADAS" business is a transparent attempt to troll an FSD argument to which won't engage except to say, again, that the user experience of letting your car drive a 200 mile leg of a long road trip is also not remotely the same as always bouncing around and stomping on brakes experience of the lanekeeping offered elsewhere.
You know both of these truths, which is why you want to redefine the features to make them false.
> It's the only non-luxury brand I'm aware of with all of those features. Who are you thinking about?
Most non-luxury brands offer these features today. Toyota Camry, for instance.
> Also you're misdirecting: "keyless entry" isn't remotely the same as "your phone is your key".
1. You didn't say anything about doing it with a phone. 2. If you do want to do it with a phone, for whatever reason, other automakers also offer this, e.g.:
https://connected-mobility.hyundai.com/what-we-do/connected-...
https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/phone-as-a-key...
> And the "level 2 ADAS" business is a transparent attempt to troll an FSD argument to which won't engage except to say, again, that the user experience of letting your car drive a 200 mile leg of a long road trip is also not remotely the same as always bouncing around and stomping on brakes experience of the lanekeeping offered elsewhere.
You shouldn't be taking your hands off the wheel while using systems that require your hands to be on the wheel. Other automakers have hands-free level 2 systems. Here's the list of brands that currently offer a hand-free level 2 system: BMW, Ford, Lincoln, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Jeep, Ram, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Infiniti, Toyota, Lexus
> You know both of these truths, which is why you want to redefine the features to make them false.
I think maybe you're just not aware of what is on the market right now.
Look, the simple ground truth is that the experience of driving a four year old Tesla (the age of my Y) is simply better than any vehicle I'm going to find anywhere at that price point or lower (or give a bit for inflation, even).
> You shouldn't be taking your hands off the wheel while using systems that require your hands to be on the wheel.
Sigh. I said I wouldn't be trolled[1], but it's a camera-based attention monitoring system now. There's no requirement for the hand on the wheel (well, it will yell at you if it sees you duck out of the camera center and you need a physical input to acknowledge), and hasn't been for more than a year.
The "car gets new features years after purchase" thing is another point in favor, FWIW.
Look, you're just wrong on this. You'll never believe that, because you'll never drive a Tesla. But I do, and I'm right.
[1] You also played the "level 2" game again, pretending that one number defines the feature set when you know very well it does not. That now has moved from "trolling" to simple lying, I'd say.
I test drove one last year, it wasn't even the highest trim... A few of my coworkers are driving used cars with 360 cameras. These aren't really new features.
> Look, the simple ground truth is that the experience of driving a four year old Tesla (the age of my Y) is simply better than any vehicle I'm going to find anywhere at that price point or lower (or give a bit for inflation, even).
Yeah, they're not bad cars. I never said they were. I said other auto makers are also shipping some of these features. I'm not attacking your vehicle; you're allowed to like it.
> Sigh. I said I wouldn't be trolled[1], but it's a camera-based attention monitoring system now. There's no requirement for the hand on the wheel (well, it will yell at you if it sees you duck out of the camera center and you need a physical input to acknowledge), and hasn't been for more than a year.
Yes, they updated their system to do this last year. A lot of auto makers have hands-free systems today, many of them already had them shipped last year, and some shipped them years before Tesla did. And while Tesla still requires you to look at the road, a couple of auto makers are shipping level three systems.
I'm not making any sort of personal attack on your purchase. I'm just here to tell you that they're not the only ones shipping these sorts of features.
The Rivian has the 360 degree view and other stuff as well.
And as for the delays - our X was in a minor collision last November and is STILL not fixed. The only way to contact Tesla is through the app and so we make an appointment, take photos, describe the issue and then are told to wait two months for our appointment. Then invariably the day before the appointment, we are told that the center we had the appointment at cannot do the work and to go to another center, with another two month delay, which then tells us the same thing.
Not being able to reach a human to fix out $100k+ car is infuriating.
Respectfully, bullshit; auto insurance companies I've dealt with certainly begged to differ, and have priced comprehensive/collision premiums for Teslas accordingly.
Repairability is a risk to insurance companies because they are liable to repair vehicle vehicles. When parts and labor are in short supply, they are more expensive. These expenses are something that an insurance company would pay in a claim for a vehicle they are liable to fix. Also, please remember that insurance companies also sometimes must pay consequential costs, e.g. a rental car, while vehicle repair repairs are pending.
They're terrible for privacy too. Just give me the finished product after the AC button is in and the telemetry is gone
Early on this was in their favor, but with more automakers entering the fray with serious attempts to compete, they’re going to have to add at least a couple more models to reman competitive: something in the vein of a Chevy Bolt on one end and an SUV that’s the next step up in size from the Y/X on the other. A more conventional truck that more directly competes with the F-150 also couldn’t hurt.
The nerd in me loves the technology, particularly behind the scenes features of the Cybertruck like 48v architecture. In the end I want to drive something that feels like it has a soul and substance. Teslas lineup right now is not that.
The Cybertruck is just am embarrassment, design wise.
I say all of this as a recent $TSLA bear with a healthy short position.
Given that they apparently have no new models in development, I'd expect the latter.
- Their roadmap is just updates to their existing line-up, and vapourware crap that relies on their "Full Self Driving" somehow magically starting to work.
That's because they did. The initial plan was for the plates to double as the frame of the car. That's how they could have achieved the seamless look of the renders. Turns out they couldn't make it work for whatever reason and the plates are just on top of the frame.
Based on the criteria, you might like the Fiat Multipla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Multipla
But I know what you're saying. I give it credit for being out there when nothing else in the auto industry is. Sadly though, its failure will likely further entrench the rest of the industry.
The matte steel body and the unbroken slope on the front are cool, if impractical. There's something funny about the tray and the featureless non-grille though.
I guess it will become an issue again when "car" becomes synonymous with "EV" and there's a sudden spike in EV registration, but who knows when that tipping point will occur.
When the politics are that front and center, it becomes a real liability to the company.
0.191 Dongfeng Xinghai S7
0.194 XPeng Mona M03
0.195 Xiaomi SU7 Pro
0.197 Lucid Air Pure
I'm looking forward to the Mona coming to Europe next year https://cnevpost.com/2025/09/09/xpeng-launch-mona-series-eur...
(And yes, a quick google confirms[0] the RAV4 is ahead of any Tesla offering this year.)
[0]: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g64457986/bestselling-cars...
edit: see replies, this is US-only.
Best selling in 2024 world wide was Model Y even including trucks? https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-worlds-best-sell...
The more interesting stat is that Toyota has 5 of the top 10 best selling cars.
Not saying it's wrong (I have no idea, that's why I googled), but would be interesting to know.
edit: but also, you're right that I inadvertently looked at US-only data. I did say it was a quick Google. :) Edited my original comment.
I'm imagining a designer looking at the earlier windshield slant, and knowing they could work with that, and retain references to the iconic earlier design.
They seem to understand the car market.
Toyota wasted a lot of time and money on that bet, and lost a lot of ground in the market.
Toyota sells the most cars of any auto maker. What ground was lost?
It's clear Toyota has correctly assessed the market. They got it right.
As time goes on, BEVs will be a bigger percentage of the cars they sell. In the meantime they'll keep selling the cars they've got, including their current BEVs.
See also: Amazon's chances in an alternative timeline where Sears wasn't run by morons.
In 2011 Toyota sold 7.9 million cars. In 2023 Toyota sold 11.2 million. In 2024 Toyota sold 10.8 million.
Tesla's ambition is to have sold fewer cars in total in what will then be the 32 year history of the company than Toyota sold in the last two years.
Here's how 2025 is looking for Toyota:
https://www.autoblog.com/news/nearly-900000-cars-sold-toyota...
Toyota got it right.
Tesla EVs have the most data to support their reliability (at least the 3/Y), and they are clearly very reliable. Plus it costs just as much as a Rav 4, but has tons more torque. And the software is much better even though it lacks Carplay.
All companies are trying to cut on variety right now. Of course, a software service used daily won't be hit as hard as a mid-class car company. Heck, even the affordable car companies are charging mid tier prices these days. The results are clear if things don't change.
I fully agree, I just wanted to focus specifically on how their offerings are lackluster even if there weren’t other problems.
Then he did a 180 and set it all on fire. It's now a top-down zeitgeist, not a bottom-up one, and the most understated thing anyone can say about that is that it's causing growing resentment.
Truth is, a single trans got a can of beer with own face, made short video and rught wing decided to make it into a campaing, because trans must be destroyed. That is it.
The brand was already declining. Americans are drinking less beer and when they do, its higher quality beer.
Imagine you are brought in to grow the business. What avenues do you have? Lower the price? Its already low end product. Move upmarket? Its difficult since the brand has been around as low priced product for decades and it would risk other higher quality brands in the parent companies portfolio.
Whats left? Expand the user base to people that typically don't drink the product.
Once things fell apart, the fact that management overrode the marketing person's decisions and tried to backpedal pissed off the potential new customer base.
Meanwhile the existing base continues to decline either way.
Maybe some items just can't grow no matter what you do. We see this with a lot of processed food junk. People are waking up to how unhealthy a lot of pre packaged food is so companies are trying all sorts of nonsense to keep people (Just look at an account like @snackolator).
I don't agree, as we are not quantifying the emotional aspect of the purchasing process. If people "love" the brand, they are willing to overlook a lot of things. Tesla was a status symbol and is now seen as a regret purchase and a toxic brand for many (see Europe and Canada for examples). I can't see how "politics" should not be considered as it does play a critical role in how people spend money. There is a reason why a lot of companies are not open about politics and I don't think I've ever seen a CEO that was so forth coming with their beliefs as Elon Musk.
Tesla is such a perfect storm that it's actually kind of amazing the stock hasn't completely tanked, which itself makes it an interesting discussion topic. They make a product where brand identity is super important, have a CEO who is unquestionably the public face of the company, and said CEO continues to go out of his way to try to alienate a significant portion of the potential customer base. I frequently see Teslas driving around with anti-Elon bumper stickers, which I've certainly never seen before for a car company. It's hard to imagine a world in which such consumer sentiment among any non-trivial percentage of your customer base isn't a death knell for the company.
The QC on the Cybertruck pretty much shows why they lost their brand power over the years, though. Even when ignoring the politics.
[0] I’m not sure anyone agrees what it’s called.
> The QC
Was never Tesla’s forte.
I may be proven wrong, but until then I'll point to ~ten years of FSD promises.
There's no reason really why robots have to be humanoid, or that you have to interact with virtual worlds by strapping the screen on your face.
None of that makes him a credible or even a competent CEO.
Considering that Tesla's P/E is the highest in the S&P 500, and is 3.5X higher than the next company in the list, it's been hinted that Tesla's valuation is coming from - cough - alternative sources and isn't a sensible estimate of potential earnings.
Mocking conventional investors seems very much the current MO, just as much as mocking customers.
So I don't care what he's betting the company on. Tesla is now a drama for the sake of drama stock, and anyone who is expecting it to produce credible products may want to reconsider that possibility.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Please consider what your commentary adds to the discussion before posting, repetition detracts from thread quality. Thanks!
I don’t know if you have checked out other OEMs lineups lately…Ford doesn’t even make a sedan anymore. That’s right. Just SUVs and trucks. And mustang supercar. Other OEMs have similarly trimmed their lineups. You can thank CAFE er al for that.
Somewhat, but I'll blame business finance way, way, way more.
The US automakers are doing the exact same dumbass thing they did in the 1970s with "BIGGER!-shouted (and more profitable)-whispered" until the Japanese automakers showed up and wiped the floor with them.
Well, BYD is coming and is going to wipe the floor with them.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Don't forget that about the other 95% of the people on earth
Does it? Since they stopped building the Mondeo in Europe they don’t sell any sedans there or in most places I’m aware of. The only Ford sedan I’m aware of in production anywhere is the Chinese-market Ford Mondeo built in a joint venture with Changan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_Y_L
But yes, I fully agree that deprioritizing/stopping the low-cost "Model 2" was a major mistake. Particularly with tariffs keeping Chinese EVs out, Tesla could have pretty much owned the space in the US. (Although Elon's DOGE antics would still have alienated a large portion of the customer base.)
Keep in mind that these things will be built in Japan and imported. I’m sure Tesla could’ve figured out some way to have an offering the same price or cheaper.
Seeing US salaries and the strength of the US dollar (and the weakness of the yen right now!)... I wonder.
At one point I don't know how you can be competitive with factories abroad. This is where protectionism comes in I guess!
All the other 3-rows have decent headroom in that last row. The Kia and Hyundai almost 42 inches. I haven't looked into the Cadillac or Volvo, but from the outside they look about the same.
All but the shortest adults and children will be uncomfortable in the Tesla third row. I'll bet it's used more for groceries than passengers.
To compete in the 3-row market, I think Tesla's gotta build something that can accommodate adults too.
And in many ways it's inferior to the Y. Tesla's mega casting and structural pack gives the Y excellent range and a lower weight for a cheaper battery.
I think the reason Tesla hasn't done mega casting and structural packs for the other lineups (besides the equipment costs) is because it'd make them eat into the revenue of the top tier models. A model 3 cutting down several hundred pounds would be range competitive with the model S. The shorter range LFP batteries could still land you in previously long range land.
Tesla has image problem. Y refresh is getting praise. Edmunds says its the best car they’ve driven in 2025. It should be selling like hotcakes. I don’t think anything is fixing Tesla unless they fire musk.
Pricing is another question though, and no CarPlay/AA while also coming from an old guard auto manufacturer means no sale from me.
I’m not sure that’s going to work out for them in the long run. Last I knew, Honda’s Prologue which is a rebadged Blazer EV and supports CarPlay/AA is outselling the Blazer.
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/joe-biden-china-tariff-hike...
To be precise, 100% on vehicles, 50% on solar cells, and 25% on Batteries.
This was frmom a year ago, though. Who knows if/what Trump added on top of that.
Bonus Article: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62694325/ford-ceo-jim-far...
>Ford CEO Jim Farley admitted he has been driving a Xiaomi SU7 for six months and said he "doesn't want to give it up."
If I'm making an inappropriate joke to my wife while we drive, I'd prefer the former than the later.
(Obviously, much like you I assume, I'd rather have no internet connection)
Most truck drivers will never tow a thing in their lives, and they will almost certainly never offroad (unless you count the leaves on the driveway)
EV trucks make perfect sense in that context.
Semi-solid state is coming for Tesla's lunch.
"Tesla has image problem." You mean the multiple nazi salutes? The "don't apologize to your past" to the AfD? Being high on something on national television? Unhinged posts on twitter? Kekius Maximus?
EVs are luxury products. You can get 90% of electification with a 50-mile-range PHEV and mitigate the charging infrastructure problem. I have a used Tesla and a PHEV, and if my PHEV only had 50 instead of the paltry 20 mile range, 100% of my daily trips would be fully electrified.
As for further examples of Musk's incompetence, there should be three different badges: Tesla, an ultra-high luxury brand that focuses on traditional cabin comfort, and a low end mass brand. They should have a minivan, station wagon, an actual large SUV, a subcompact city car, a real pickup truck, a work van, and where is the goddamn semi?
Tesla should have bought a struggling auto company for manufacturing, design, and suppliers, and used that for the low-end badge and for PHEVs. Nissan would have been perfect I would think.
Tesla should at this point have joint ventures with huge numbers of electrification avenues: construction equipment, prosumer lawn mowers, "side by sides", golf carts, ATVs, jet skis, boats, if it has an ICE motor, Tesla should be expanding into it with a good name brand.
Of course Tesla solar is moribund, the solar roof is nowhere.
And if anyone claims again that grid storage will deliver some massive sales to Tesla: any success is temporary. Grid will be won by sodium ion and other grid-specific storage chemistries that cylindrical cell manufacture won't be able to compete with.
And yet another point: Tesla's cylindrical cells were an advantage ... five years ago. It's not anymore. Sodium Ion, LFP, semi-solid state, sulfur chems, all will probably be pouch. Cylindrical is basically legacy manufacturing tech.
Musk's cozying up and inevitable fallout with Trump definitely put the EV credits in crosshairs. Probably wouldn't have survived the era of insanity, but that gravy train (1/3 of tesla's profits ... at least) is over.
Finally, let's not forget the total disaster that the dry-cathode 4680 battery cell is. Basically still vaporware, and the Chinese manufacturers have better tech already in manufacture.
AND YET, I'm sure the stock will go up based on the bad news.
If they were not hurting super bad, they would have a factory tooling up for Roadster2
I assume the cyberflop is the missing revenue they needed to keep the flywheel going
Tesla had a whole "this is the future" thing going on for a while and now it's the past and I'm not sure there's a lot of future to sell in that space anymore, or at least not by them.
Tesla sales growth was already slowing day significantly before Musk showed who he really is to the wider public. There was no way they were hitting their announced target - they were supposedly going to do +50% each year until 2030, and end up selling 20M cars / year. They dropped this prediction in 2024, before 'political issues'...
"Sales of new EVs jumped more than 24% month over month in July to 128,268, according to the Cox data, driven by the looming end of a $7,500 tax credit for EVs and attractive deals. Tesla saw sales rise 7% to 53,816, even as its market share fell."
Another POV is the measurement is meaningless, and the market seems to agree.
The auto industry is a good bet as long as you think Americans of means gravitate towards a car lifestyle, which is almost certainly true.
2022-Q3 $21.5B revenue
2025-Q2 $22.5b revenueWhen they removed the center horn and the stalks from their cars, they officially jumped the shark. But I bet they saved at least $50 per car from their costs. I still can't believe the NHTSA hasn't issued a recall.
Having owned both, I’m not even sure where to begin with how laughably inaccurate that is. We can start at functioning automatic wipers, 360 degree cameras, parking assist that actually works, a knob to control stereo volume, accurate marketing numbers for range, a dealership network that actually will fix the issue, insurance that isn’t insane, headlight brights that actually dim at an appropriate distance for oncoming traffic, cruise control that doesn’t phantom brake (slam on the brakes for no reason) traveling down the highway…
Need I continue? Because I can.
Are you sure you owned both? You're sort of exposing yourself as never having owned a Tesla at all (at least not a new one). I've never experienced phantom braking in my Y (although I have in a ford escort), and the headlight dimming is pretty good (again in the new model Y, unsure about an old one).
Niceness is subjective, so I suppose it's inappropriate to declare it as nicer, but it is a premium car. The materials and experience are much nicer than, say, a Camry, and is on par with vehicles in its class if not better.
And with just that statement you’ve lost all credibility. The internet is literally full of endless people complaining about phantom braking including the Tesla forums. The “fix” is to pay for FSD which isn’t a fix at all. It’s extortion.
I’ve driven a Model 3 and its handling and overall feel was worse than a barebones Honda Civic. I’d say a Model 3 is on par with how a low end Chrysler feels to drive.
Why are you staring at your instrument panel and not the road? The speed is just a glance at the top corner as you should be focused on driving ;)
Reminds me cheap Peugeot 107 where tachometer is an extra option.
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-DEB259C...
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-DEB259C...
If your CEO bribes voters to help elect a traitorous pedophile and then personally (and illegally) cuts aid funding directly causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and all of that hurts business, that's something you have to include for context! That's some crazy stuff!
I love to hate on Elon as much as the next person, but everything was above board.
https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/canada-clears-tesla-in-izev...
> Tesla’s head of sales for Canada, emphasized in a March 28 letter that the filings followed program guidelines, which allowed post-delivery submissions despite recommendations for pre-delivery assessments.
but this alludes to something more:
> Despite the clearance, Tesla will still be excluded from future iZEV programs
Huh. Why, I wonder?
It isn't a mystery, the PM of Canada and several premiers have openly stated that Tesla isn't going to be eligible because Musk is Musk, and Tesla is American.
At some point EVs should be way cheaper than ICE vehicles.
The thing is almost no one wants to buy small cheap car in US. Expensive SUV - yes, but not small car. Especially not electric.
Also, it likely doesn't meet US crash standards without modifications. And it really would not keep up with traffic on the highways here.
Btw, it's actually Tesla cannot meet strict rules: cybertrack is not street legal in EU.
Sometimes the differences are very minor. Sometimes it's a matter of requiring different standard equipment. Different markets around the world take different regulatory approaches in requiring active safety features versus passive safety features. Some markets focus on the safety of the occupants within the vehicle, other markets balance that safety with other road users or people outside of the vehicle. The EU tests what happens when a vehicle hits a pedestrian but the US doesn't. The US tests what happens when somebody's not wearing their seatbelt, but the EU doesn't. The EU and US crash test vehicles into different objects at different speeds and in different directions. Saying that one system is "more strict" than the other is really a gross oversimplification of the global vehicle regulatory landscape.
Heck, sometimes European manufacturers have to remove safety features from an equivalent EU-market vehicle to meet US safety standards. (e.g. Audi matrix headlights) So, just because something doesn't meet US standards doesn't mean I'm calling it bad.
Although I'm not so sure in this case... the Dacia Spring EV has a one-star Euro NCAP rating. So even the EU thinks it kind of sucks. And if you look at where it struggled, you'll see it lacked in occupant protection specifically. Which is probably not good for it being imported into the US, because US standards for occupant protection are generally more difficult to meet.
And does it really keep up with Autobahn traffic? I'm guessing it probably does fine in urban areas. But even the higher trim takes 14 seconds to get to 62mph. This is about 40% slower than the slowest car currently sold in the US. This would not be received well in the US market -- the average vehicle sold here is twice this quick. Also the top speed is 78 mph. This is slower than maximum posted highway speeds in 20% of US states. And prevailing speeds on many non-urban highways in the US are 80+.
That's not to say these are dealbreakers in usability. But nobody's gonna pay 100% tariff to import one, when you could get way better vehicle for sub ~$37,000.
I'm curious how such traffic can handle trucks at 55mph but cannot handle car with max speed of 78mph.
And trucks on US highways often go the speed of prevailing traffic, especially on flat ground.
Tesla's received favorable attention for it's "claim" they are (were?) working on a $30k car.
And that techno-ideological claim that "all you need for self-driving is a camera" is a cost-savings solution. [ A robotics prof, ( I think at a university in Philadelphia ? ) cites a statistic that camera based navigation will succeed 97% of the time, max. So, 3% failures over all scenarios. ]
Musk hasn’t said anything that isn’t a lie since when I could dunk the basket (a loooong while ago)
So literally he killed the affordable 'Model 2' because self driving would destroy 80% of the market and if that was true there wasn't demand.
So he decided to only focus on 'RoboTaxi'.
People really want to own cars. That won’t change even if taxis are ubiquitous and cheap.
In the 70s people in the Netherlands they were not 'bike people' but now that's what they look like.
Same in the US, most people are not car obsessed, they have simply been 'brainwashed' into a society where you 'need' a car. And therefore everybody says they want to own a car, because the idea of not having a car or not wanting a car is like hating Apple Pie and the American Way.
If you watch urbanist youtube, you will see the topic discussed, people who live their whole live in the subburbs don't even understand how people without a car get groceries. This is a common question that gets asked.
Yes, some people are 'car' people, just there are people on bikes, even when it is not very save. But that's going to be a small group of people, just as there is now for bikes in dangerous places. In a world where you don't need a car, and its cheaper to not have one, the waste majority of people will not adopt 'car' as a hobby.
That said, even optimistically if 'full self driving' happened, that would take decades. And the 'car' hobby in the US would survive a very long time, 100000000s of millions of garages and parking spot have already been built, millions of people have been educated on car repair and so on and so on. So I think even if full self driving was solved, the culture shit would take a generation.
However the cars themselves are really shitty. I mean really bad for quality and do not offer any aesthetic value either, they appear very plain and generic at this point. I can see why people are picking other cars. Of course the whole nazi turn of their founder doesn’t help.
Didn't they fire the team behind the charging network a while ago? How has it been since then?
... Why on earth would one keep buying them?
So they’re still selling more cars, but there’s hotter EV competition.
I thought that was the goal.
It was the goal to say it out loud to the press and on twitter to gain sympathy and stand tall on the moral high ground.
The metric that I would like to see is Tesla's market share of the auto market in general (regardless of fuel type).
I like the new Model 3 and Model Y. It is unfortunate that they didn't do a facelift for the Model S and X. I know they've updated the motors and batteries and interior, but unless you look closely the Model X looks pretty much the same as it did in 2016.
If you look at the existing vehicles:
- they no longer sell Model S and X in Europe and right hand markets
- Model S has had one external visual change since it was introduced, Model X has never had one
- the refreshed Model 3 and Y don’t really have any battery or charging improvements, last time they updated those was 8 years ago
- no V2L like others
- no increased battery capacity
- no 800V on anything outside CT
- Tesla’s charging curves compared to others are laughable
- no increased creature comforts, eg massaging seats, screens for passenger, air suspension, automated frunk, 360 view, etc
- no FSD worldwide
- Autopilot hasn’t seen an update in years
- park assist is horrible compared to USS
The market has really caught up and in a lot of places outpaced Tesla - Rivian, Audi, Polestar, Volvo, Hyundai, KIA have better products
I'll add: they don't have a city/compact car (Euro A/B/C segment), their "smallest" offer starts at the D-segment Model 3, which is a big car by EU standards. I know that for US standards these look small, but for the rest of the world they represent huge chunk of cars. People don't need a Model 3 for daily driving, they need the equivalent of a Volkswagen Golf, with ~400km real range.
If instead of the CT they had released an 800V, V2L+V2G, 48V B/C-segment car, they'd have grabbed most of the market. The CT was a very expensive (and stupid in some places - exterior in non-painted steel) experiment in new tech, architecture and steer by wire that had 0 follow up so far.
Robotaxi is just Model Ys that have a FSD version that they let on to some cities. It’s again something that’ll never make it outside the US, even though the market there is big enough for it to be sustainable.
Cybercab is never coming out. It doesn’t make sense for it to exist and be sold to people.
200 mile range 2 seater? It mostly makes sense as a literal cab and if it’s going to be profitable for whoever buys it and lets it be a Robotaxi, there’s no point for Tesla to sell it, as they can just be the ones that take in that profit on every vehicle.
Additionally, Tesla has not materially lowered their prices or spent a lot on marketing.
The situation might be different here though since there has been a rather long-running and high-profile conflict between Tesla and the unions, on top of all the other madness.
1. Car company (true)
2. energy company (eh)
3. robotaxi (next year since 2018)
4. robots ...
Optimus seems to be much closer to actually being released as a product than Atlas. After over a decade, Boston Dynamics still hasn't shown anyone a live, unscripted demo of Atlas as far as I can tell (Tesla was showing those with multiple Optimus robots a year ago). And they don't appear to have any plans for actually selling it as a product anytime soon.
I'm skeptical of the humanoid robot market in general, but at the moment Tesla and Unitree appear to be the two companies ate the forefront of it.
Based on their history I'm pretty optimistic that those expectations will not be met, but Tesla somehow still rises in value.
The market can remain irrational much longer than you can remain solvent.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results
Consecutive years of sales declines is a situation where it does not matter if the market is growing or shrinking, it's bad for a company. The only way to grow if absolute sales go down is to raise margins on each individual unit.
"But with weakening sales and a host of competitors, Tesla has had to cut prices in recent years, squeezing its margins and worrying investors."
Hmmmm, I guess maybe the author of the article understands this better than you think?
Why not? Look at Apple's smartphone market share in the US. It's been fairly constant at 60% for the last 15 years.
In the vehicle market, there's a lot more competition space than just two or three brands. And just because someone is around, say, Ford drivers. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to go out and buy a Ford for themselves. Rather, they're going to buy whatever they find appealing.
In Tesla's case, a number of competitors have entered the market. It would be impossible to maintain whatever market share they had no matter how good the product is or how well their stock price is doing.
https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/AA1M6lm4...
But he closed his fund late 2023, in big part because of his short position on Tesla. He's still a very vocal advocate of Teslaq. Feel really bad for the guy - Tesla will end up crashing, but it will take way way longer that anybody could anticipated.
Plus buying an inverse ETF has higher fees than actually shorting it and you can't make a pair trade or earn interest on the money.
If the market grows in size and you’re able to grow revenue and profit, reduced market share in and of itself doesn’t matter.
While the U.S. market share has declined, Tesla's overall annual revenue has continued to grow from $11.75 billion in 2017 to over $97 billion in 2024, though it saw a slight decline in revenue for the 12 months ending June 30, 2025.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/TSLA/tesla/revenue
The Tesla story and its high valuation were based on the idea that Tesla had won the car market, others couldn’t catch up, and Tesla was going to be doing laps around the competition with all of their additional business lines that grew out of their class-leading EV business.
If their EV business is losing market share, that really is a problem for the narrative. They could be fine as an EV company, but they’ve sold themselves as something far more.
> Tesla's overall annual revenue has continued to grow from $11.75 billion in 2017
2017 was forever ago in technology and economic terms. The most important problem right now is that their revenue isn’t growing while everyone else is getting better at EVs.
This story never made sense. They sold about 1.8 million cars in 2024 (and also in 2023), VAG sold 9 million. Tesla is no where close to winning the car market. Until recently, Ford regularly sold more F-Series than Tesla sold cars.
Sure, for quite some time, Tesla was selling a lot more EVs than anyone else. But, building EVs is supposed to be easier than building ICE cars, and some of the old guard auto manufacturers have been building cars for hundreds of years... Once they decide to build EVs and figure out the logistics of batteries, they're going to have no trouble building EVs or selling them, and then Tesla is left with the moat of the Musk Reality Distortion Field which seems to be weaker now than ever.
When nobody else was making competent EVs, Telsa's market value was clear. Now, I don't know. There are so many to choose from, but what does a Tesla give you that some other EV doesn't?
Without the tax credit these companies may cease to exist or stop making evs in the case of Ford.
It's likely they will have fewer competitors soon
Long-term growth is pinned on success in AI, robotics, robotaxis, and autonomous services.
2024: $97.69 B, i.e. +0.95% vs. 2023
2023: $96.77 B, i.e. +18.8% vs. 2022
2022: $81.46 B, i.e. +51.35% vs. 2021
So flat for 1 year (going into 2024) and we don't yet know 2025 numbers, which is less pessimistic than your "almost 3 years flat".
If you adjust for inflation, the 2022-2023 rise is going to look fairly anaemic (and 23-24 is a drop, of course).
2022-Q3 $21.5B revenue
2025-Q2 $22.5b revenueYou can lose market share and increase revenue if the market is growing fast enough.
If you measure market share by units moved (as many markets are measured), you can raise prices and increase revenue despite lower unit sales and lost market share.
Basic math dude.
There’s such a thing as a top down vs bottom up approach.
The numbers cited in the article are units sold. Tesla has 38% of 128k cars sold. Now tell me what the Tesla revenue was using your method?
See why serious people just look at what revenue was to determine what revenue was? It’s not a “bottom up” approach, it’s a “look at that reported and audited number and tell me what it is” approach.
Did you figure out what the revenue is yet, I'm super curious about how close the "top down" approach is going to be to reality. Don't forget that Tesla has revenue from non car products!
Okay. And if the total sales of a market = 1000 and Tesla has 10% share then it has 100 in revenue. That's how percentages work.
Losing market share as a percentage is expected in a growing market as new players enter.