35 pointsby pseudolus3 days ago5 comments
  • DangitBobby3 days ago
    Look at how far we've come. We started with hiring processes where almost universally to submit an application, you at least spoke to a human who would acknowledge you, know you exist, and have advanced knowledge on whether the position was even open. Very little wasting of applicants time.

    Then, we transitioned into highly automated form submissions online, where it's so easy for the potential employer to collect applications that they don't bother to stop receiving them when they have filled the position, and they even keep fake job openings to goose the numbers. IMO, this development was a completely one-sided benefit to employers. They seemed to relish in wasting the applicants time, somehow.

    Now, legitimate job postings are being inundated with slop due to how shit the online application process is and how much of the applicant's time it's designed to waste. Sounds like a form of justice, almost.

    Maybe now we can go back to confirming a human exists on both ends.

    • bryan_w2 days ago
      This feels like an older generational take. Here's why I say that:

      > Then, we transitioned into highly automated form submissions online, ... this development was a completely one-sided benefit to employers.

      This was actually a big advantage to job seekers as you could apply to way more jobs at once and lowered the bar of starting to look for another job when the time at your current job was up.

      As a millennial, I seriously do not know how people got office jobs before the Internet. I've heard people say, "Just put on your best suit, go down there and ask to speak with the manager and give him a firm handshake", but that just seems so old fashioned.

      >> Sounds like a form of justice, almost.

      You seem upset, like they did this just to screw you over, but perhaps there might have been other reasons that you hadn't thought of. In any case, the solution won't be eye to eye meetings to submit applications, but probably something digital so I wouldn't expect "The good old days" anytime soon.

      • DangitBobby9 hours ago
        I don't think the purpose was to screw anyone over, of course, the benefits are obvious. It is much easier to deal with a large volume (any volume, really) of digital applications. You can pool from a much wider application base and like you said you don't physically need to be there to apply. But my impression is that it was more of a monkey paw curl for applicants than a boon. I definitely think a human knowing you exist when you submit an application would add a small hint of humanity back to the process. I watched my wife recently submit dozens of applications and heard back from only a handful in the form of rejections, it was like throwing darts in a dark room.
      • cafarda day ago
        A historical note:

        Forty years ago, I shared a house with a guy who had recently completed an MA, and hadn't found any work related to it. I always knew when his family had been in town, because the Help Wanted ad section from the Sunday New York Times would be on the table. Memory may exaggerate, but I remember this section as fatter than today's Times is Monday through Saturday. The Washington Post had a similar Help Wanted section. In fact, I think that every job I have held since 1983 I applied for in response to a classified ad.

        Obviously it would be better to be recruited, to have somebody call up and say, Hey, Dave says you're a great hand at X, are you by any chance looking to move? But responding to a classified ad is how an awful lot of us found employment back then.

        I should say that there one would occasionally see ads for work requiring remarkable qualifications, but paying a bit better than McDonalds. It was only much later that I understood that these were placed to establish that one couldn't hire US citizens for the work and so should be allowed to hire someone on an H1-B.

    • trod12342 days ago
      What you describe is called in engineering, a whipsaw, and when whipsaws get too chaotic they tear the machinery apart.

      When you stop taking it personally, and ask yourself how and why these business leaders were able to do this and continue doing it for decades, you'll eventually narrow in on the fact that money-printing has played a critical role.

      Then ask yourself what happens when legitimate producers who are immediately constrained by a loss(profit) function face off against producers who are unconstrained (through non-reserve debt issuance with loans out 100 years).

      What happened to all the local video rental places after Blockbuster? What happened to all the local SuperMarts after Walmart? What happened with Food Deserts?

      Large well funded companies came in, slashed prices under where it was profitable, and outspent until competitors shut down. There is a reason since the 70s business growth/adoption plans follow the same curves as ponzi schemes.

      Until the fuel that drives the cycle is removed, no change can be expected; and if we are being honest, the people making these choices aren't the brightest people in the room.

      Every producer requires labor, but some use their unconstrained nature to manipulate the factor markets towards wage suppression. This creates untenable whipsaws eventually.

  • dlachausse3 days ago
    Good. It is a terrible way to screen job applicants and a waste of time for them to carefully craft a resume and then have to put all the exact same information into an online job application form.

    Good riddance, they have long been obsolete.

    • dyauspitr3 days ago
      What are you suggesting? I fill out a form for every position or does the article talk about AI parsing your resumes for you?

      Because filling out a new form for every position is a ridiculous waste of time.

      • dlachausse3 days ago
        I have always had to fill out a job application form in addition to the resume. The AI parsing helps fill out some of it with varying success, but I would rather just skip the resume entirely.

        Perhaps having the job application form pull from my LinkedIn profile would be a good solution to the problem of filling out the same information over and over.

        • bcrl3 days ago
          Online job applications forms are a great way to filter out high quality applicants by wasting their time. I'd rather spend the time which would otherwise be wasted on those forms talking to humans I know and have worked with to find out about worthwhile opportunities where my contribution is valued.
          • 65102 days ago
            Start by asking their phone number, then, on the next page, have a good few useless questions. Sort by number of questions not answered and least amount of scrolling.
          • dlachausse3 days ago
            Resumes also waste a lot of time for both applicants and employers. They are a relic of a bygone era that should be retired.
            • DaSHacka3 days ago
              And what do you propose should replace them?
              • dlachausse3 days ago
                Nothing should replace them. They are unnecessary and redundant.
                • bcrl3 days ago
                  Resumes provide a significant amount of relevant background information on job applicants. How do you propose to obtain this information? Not everything that happens is recorded and available online.
                  • dlachausse2 days ago
                    Got an example of relevant information not duplicated on a LinkedIn profile and a job application?

                    Ultimately, the best chance of success when searching for jobs is to network with people and make personal connections. If you’re relying on your resume to get hired you’re probably going to have a bad time.

                    Also, as someone who has made hiring decisions in the past I am not a fan of resumes. The lack of any standard for format or even what information is contained on a resume makes them a royal pain to sift through.

                    • bcrl2 days ago
                      I will put relevant details in a resume or cover letter that are not meant for public consumption on LinkedIn. There are plenty of people that can't go into too many details in public about their current role because of NDAs.

                      Hiring is messy. It always has been and always will be precisely because it involves human beings. I've been on both sides of the table often enough, and every hire is ultimately a coin toss. You try to weed out the people that are obviously horrible, and give a chance to the people that seem like they have a few useful strengths or might be able to grow into the role. Most important is that they can fit in with a team. There is no such thing as a perfect hire, and I would not trust a computer to do a decent job of building a team that works well together.

                      Moreover, I would have deeply serious concerns if someone working for me in a hiring position complained that resumes aren't in a standardized format. How are they going to cope with the emotional mess that managing humans is as soon as someone steps outside of the predefined box they have put them in?

                      "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

                      • dlachausse2 days ago
                        > Hiring is messy. It always has been and always will be precisely because it involves human beings. I've been on both sides of the table often enough, and every hire is ultimately a coin toss. You try to weed out the people that are obviously horrible, and give a chance to the people that seem like they have a few useful strengths or might be able to grow into the role. Most important is that they can fit in with a team.

                        During hiring, it's never been my experience that resumes are particularly helpful for any of these things. Interviews, on the other hand are incredibly valuable for these things. It's my opinion that the most effective way to do hiring is to weed out all the obviously unqualified applicants as quickly as possible, and then if necessary dwindle down the remaining applicants to a reasonable number to interview based on X number of individuals who appear to be the most qualified for the position. I just see resumes as unnecessary additional friction in the process of narrowing down who should be interviewed for a job.

                        • bcrl2 days ago
                          Resumes let the applicant paint a picture of who they are, and are a good source of background that gives ideas for what questions to ask applicants, or what projects they did. I don't want to go into an interview as an interviewer knowing nothing about a potential hire or as an interviewee where the interviewer completely ignored the information I provided to give them an idea of who I am and what I bring to the table.

                          If you can't be bothered to take 5 minutes to look at a resume, why should the interviewee commit to spending hours doing coding tests or traveling into your office for an interview? It's the bare minimum to ask that the hiring manager look at a document that gives them some idea of an applicant's background. Anything else is treating people disrespectfully. Your time isn't the only thing that matters. People aren't just cogs in a machine. This line of thinking is what's destroying the software industry.

        • dyauspitr3 days ago
          LinkedIn is a terrible solution if you expect everyone to use a single company for all their job needs. You can’t mandate everyone use a private website.

          I’ve had to submit my resume and fill out the same information again maybe 30% of the time. It’s definitely not every time.

          • dlachausse3 days ago
            It wouldn’t have to be mandatory. You’re always free to fill out the information yourself.

            I picked LinkedIn as an example because many (most?) job applicants have an account with them and it has most of the relevant information already, such as education, industry certifications, and job history.

            • dyauspitr3 days ago
              A lot of people don’t want to show up in an internet search and having LinkedIn makes that a necessity.

              I’d rather we mandate companies have AI/auto parsers for a regular resume instead.

              • dlachausse3 days ago
                We’ll have to agree to disagree. As a recent job seeker, I had to have a LinkedIn profile, a resume, and fill out application forms all containing redundant information. The resume import functionality was extremely hit or miss…sometimes actually making more work for me because it incorrectly parsed my resume and erroneously filled the wrong information into the wrong fields.

                LinkedIn would serve as a definitive superset source of truth so that I would only need to keep it up to date versus the current status quo. Ideally perhaps some sort of standard API could emerge where you could choose your favorite provider of job application information.

          • trod12342 days ago
            Quite a number of people are sticking to State job boards where they require posters to submit that the information provided is accurate and correct under penalty of perjury.

            LinkedIn/Indeed are incentivized to keep ghost jobs up if those entities pay them money.

  • haiku20773 days ago
    > Whereas earlier technologies helped people craft one good résumé more efficiently, AI enables candidates to generate hundreds of customized applications with minimal effort

    This isn't totally new - I was doing this pre-AI, over a decade ago. But I guess it's now a lot easier.

  • tropicalfruit2 days ago
    i deleted my linkedin last year when i realised it only exists to harvest data for microshafts AI
  • decafninja2 days ago
    The last time I was interviewing, many of my interviewers flat out admitted they hadn’t read my resume and were just interested in my leetcode performance.