89 pointsby bookofjoe5 days ago11 comments
  • vanderZwan5 days ago
    > The range of the mind’s eye is restricted by the skill of the hand. The castles in the air must conform to the possibilities of material things—border-line possibilities perhaps; or, if something beyond the known border is required, the plan must wait until other dreams come true.

    That's a quote that surely appeals to many here.

  • adrian_b5 days ago
    While the invention of stainless steel is one of the most important in history, it should be noted that almost never an invention appears really independently, but almost always it appears as a consequence of a chain of prior inventions, which have been necessary to make it possible.

    Leading to stainless steel, a first step was the discovery of the method to produce aluminum cheaply, by electrolysis. With cheap aluminum available, a method for producing chromium was discovered, by reducing chromium compounds with metallic aluminum.

    With metallic chromium easily available, after a century from its discovery, during which making metallic chromium had been impossible in great quantities, it has become possible to investigate the properties of the chromium alloys with the other available metals.

    Soon, it has been discovered that chromium can produce interesting alloys with cobalt ("stellite") and with nickel, and that these alloys are the first metals that can rival the platinum-group metals in chemical resistance.

    It has been suggested that these chromium alloys could be used for stainless cutlery, but the high prices of cobalt and nickel have prevented the use of such alloys, except for special applications where the cost was unimportant.

    More than a decade later, the next logical step has been the discovery that the expensive cobalt and nickel can be substituted with cheap iron, without diminishing much the chemical resistance of the alloys.

    It should also be noted that while Brearley has invented the ferritic stainless steel, which has only small amounts of any other elements besides iron and chromium, almost simultaneously a different kind of stainless steel has been invented in Germany, austenitic stainless steel, which also has significant amounts of nickel, besides iron and chromium, with enough nickel to change the crystal structure of the steel.

    Austenitic stainless steels have various advantages, especially that they are much more suitable to cheap processing by plastic deformation, so nowadays they are much more widely used than the kind of stainless steel invented by Brearley.

    • pfdietz5 days ago
      > Leading to stainless steel, a first step was the discovery of the method to produce aluminum cheaply, by electrolysis. With cheap aluminum available, a method for producing chromium was discovered, by reducing chromium compounds with metallic aluminum.

      Are you sure about that? Chromium is produced (as ferrochrome, a FeCr alloy) by carbothermic reduction of chromite. This is done in an arc furnace, so electrical energy is needed, but no aluminum. Pure chromium (without the iron) is not needed for production of stainless steel.

      • hinkley5 days ago
        > Chromium is produced

        Brearley steel debuted in 1915. The question is not how it is produced in 2025 but how it was produced in 1915.

        Wikipedia partly agrees with GP:

        “Also in the late 1890s, German chemist Hans Goldschmidt developed an aluminothermic (thermite) process for producing carbon-free chromium.[29] Between 1904 and 1911, several researchers, particularly Leon Guillet of France, prepared alloys that would later be considered stainless steel.[29][30]”

        Though it points out a host of household names that knew of iron chrome alloys, including Faraday and Bunsen. Chrome steel existed for 75 years before Brearley came along but seems to have been used for things like canons, which are a lot more dear than cutlery. I wonder how they got their chrome 50 years before Goldschmidt.

        • pfdietz5 days ago
          Ferrochrome was first produced in electric arc furnaces in 1893, two decades before stainless steel.
          • adrian_b5 days ago
            The first ferrochrome produced thus had very high carbon content.

            The only kind of stainless steel that could have had any chances of being made with such a ferrochrome would have been a martensitic stainless steel for knife blades.

            In any case that kind of ferrochrome was not suitable for researching the properties of chromium alloys. The acceptable compositions for alloys like stellite or various kinds of stainless steels have all been discovered, after many experiments, only by using relatively pure aluminothermic chromium, which was a strictly necessary ingredient for enabling chromium alloy research.

            Only after the required composition of a kind of stainless steel was understood and only if it was determined that such a composition can be reached by mixing ferrochrome with iron, the manufacturing process was adjusted for using cheaper ferrochrome instead of pure chromium.

            Today there exists low-carbon ferrochrome, which is suitable for making most kinds of stainless steels, but even now the low-carbon ferrochrome is much more expensive than the high-carbon ferrochrome from which only martensitic stainless steel can be made.

          • Retric5 days ago
            Chromite was mined in the US back in 1811.

            Ferrochrome is used to make Chrome steel and later stainless steel, but Chrome steel is significantly older.

            • adrian_b5 days ago
              The kinds of chrome steel used in the 19th century were very fragile, due to high content of carbon and of other impurities.

              Their possible uses were very limited in comparison with the ductile stainless steels discovered in the 20th century.

              Also the chemical resistance of the first chrome steels was modest, because it was not known which is the minimum content of chromium for avoiding rusting and also their composition was not well controlled.

            • pfdietz5 days ago
              Chromite was being mined then for use in chemicals, particularly for tanning, IIRC.
    • dmurray5 days ago
      > It has been suggested that these chromium alloys could be used for stainless cutlery, but the high prices of cobalt and nickel have prevented the use of such alloys

      Nickel and cobalt don't seem prohibitively expensive for cutlery, around $15,000 [0] per ton and $33,000 [1] per ton respectively. By comparison, chromium is around $10,000 and iron is essentially free.

      Even if the optimal ratio is 100% cobalt, that might add $1.50 to the price of a dinner fork or $50 to a cutlery set that will last a lifetime.

      Walmart might not stock it, but that seems completely within the range of what you could charge for a premium product, if the nickel-cobalt-chromium alloys really do make for superior cutlery. Maybe it's less suitable for other reasons than cost.

      [0] https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/nickel

      [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/cobalt

      • adrian_b4 days ago
        While cobalt and nickel alloys must be made with relatively expensive metallic chromium, stainless steel is made with much cheaper ferrochrome.

        Low-carbon ferrochrome, which is suitable for any stainless steel, is around $1500 per ton.

        High-carbon ferrochrome, which is suitable for martensitic stainless steel, which is used for knife blades and for some tools, is less than $1000 per ton.

        This is why stainless steel is much cheaper than any alternatives, e.g. much cheaper even than pure copper.

        The inventor of stellite, Haynes, thought that stellite will become popular for cutlery.

        It is likely that this would have happened, if the much cheaper stainless steel had not been invented soon.

        The window of opportunity for using stellite in such applications has closed after a decade since its invention, by the appearance of stainless steel, relegating stellite and its derivatives to applications with requirements so high that they could not be satisfied by stainless steel, e.g. special tools and surgical implants (CoCrMo alloys, which are variants of the alloy originally named stellite, have been used for decades in making surgical implants, before the discovery that titanium is even better for this purpose).

  • legitster5 days ago
    > That Brearley is credited with discovering stainless steel is due mostly to luck; that he is credited with fathering it is due mostly to his resolve.

    It's interesting that most times I have heard these stories growing up the "discovery" aspect was always emphasized - some retelling even framed them as "accidents". Forgetting the parts where the person in question had dedicated a lifetime of study in pursuit of the finding.

  • gsf_emergency_25 days ago
    From time to time, I see articles implying the medieval use of chromium, however sparingly, in forging weapons (near east or central Asia)

    Eg. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03054...

    • adrian_b4 days ago
      Those who made such early examples of chromium-containing steel had no idea that chromium existed.

      What happened is that they have found a place with chromite and they have believed that they have found magnetite, because both are heavy blackish stones. Most likely the chromite was actually mixed with true magnetite, which is always much more abundant (chromite is a mixed iron-chromium oxide, while magnetite, which has an identical crystal structure, is a mixed Fe(II)/Fe(III) oxide).

      Then they have used the magnetite mixed with chromite exactly like they knew to use magnetite, for making steel.

      The steel happened to be better than what they had made before, and they were happy that they had found a source of particularly good magnetite for making steel.

      After gathering experience, they have probably adjusted their techniques for smelting and forging to work better with steel made with the natural magnetite-chromite mixture, but that is all the extent of their knowledge.

      Because the ancient smiths did not know how to do chemical analyses, they had no idea why using similarly looking minerals mined from different places results in metals with different properties. In the ancient world it was well known that certain steels or bronzes made in certain places are much better than the steels or bronzes made in other places, so the price of steel or bronze varied a lot based on its provenience. These quality differences were frequently caused by impurities in the source minerals used for metal production, whose presence was unknown for the ancients, but they were aware of the qualities of the metals produced there.

      No knowledge whatsoever about the existence of chromium has existed anywhere, before the creation of the modern chemistry, based on the concept of chemical element, slightly before the French Revolution, towards the end of the 18th century, which triggered an intense search for the discovery of new chemical elements.

      • gsf_emergency_24 days ago
        What you say sounds reasonable, but the university PR claimed that they knew chromite was special

        >Crucially, analyses using Scanning Electron Microscopy enabled them to identify remains of the ore mineral chromite [rusakhtaj], which was described in Biruni’s manuscript as an essential additive to the process.

        https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/sep/chromium-steel-was-first...

        This still doesn't say they knew about chromium ofc just that it was not just magnetite. Ofc one has to read farsi to make sure rusakhtaj wasn't a common alias for magnetite. Who knows, rudimentary awareness of the concept of "alloy" might have existed there..

        • adrian_b3 days ago
          The original text would have to be read extremely carefully to conclude that they knew that chromite is really different from magnetite.

          I have read many ancient texts about metallurgy and the like, where they were using a bewildering amount of various names to designate the various kinds of ores and of produced metals.

          Despite that, they did not think that there was any essential difference between the many kinds of magnetite or of chalkopyrite and so on. They were habituated with the fact that the natural minerals extracted from different places have never exactly the same properties. Now we know that this is caused by slightly different chemical compositions, but they just knew that some are better for a certain purpose, while others are worse, without knowing why this is so.

          Because this is how all the minerals they knew had always behaved, it was not considered a surprising fact. It was just accepted that you have to know the exact origin of a mineral, to assess its value and its suitability for a desired purpose.

          So I doubt that they had considered chromite as a stone distinct from magnetite, like they considered e.g. magnetite distinct from pyrite, where the appearance of the stones is easily distinguishable.

          Even if they had thought that chromite is not a better kind of magnetite, but something really different, they still would have not imagined that chromite contains another metal that becomes alloyed with iron, like they knew to alloy tin with copper or the like. They would have thought that adding chromite stones to the minerals for iron extraction improves the resulting steel for some unknown reason.

          • I'd imagine, by those days, they could tell chromite was significantly "less magnetic" than magnetite.. in principle of course.
  • datameta5 days ago
    The full read particularly resonated with me from the perspective of a metaphor to today's rapidly changing engineering practices.

    > “Time was,” he lamented later, “when a man made steel, decided what it was good for and told the customer how to make the best of it. Then, with time’s quickening step, he just made the steel; he engaged another man, who knew nothing about steelmaking, to analyse it, and say what it was good for. Then he engaged a second man, who knew all about hardening and tempering steel; then a third man who could neither make steel, nor analyse it, nor harden and temper it—but this last tested it, put his OK mark on it and passed it into service.”

    In a way it warms my heart that obfuscation in such a manner, perhaps even enshittification, is not a new experience for those watching a trade modernise. Several things come to mind: npm and python library dependency hell and LLM as a catalyst of skill atrophy in experts simultaneously with the enablement of a whole new middle layer of proprietors.

    Also the article led me to think more about the idea of simultaneous invention - I used to believe it to be redundant and wasted work. But this still can lead to different outcomes even with identical formulations or methods. Getting an invention into use in the world is perhaps as great a feat as the invention itself. I now believe any worthwhile invention deserves more than one champion.

    In today's hyperconnected world it is easy to discover that someone else has beaten you to the full flourishing of idea into invention, but I find that doing the novel work oneself with one's own mind and hands still provides the unique learning opportunity which can allow one to invent yet again, albeit now with a widened skill and knowledge horizon.

    • hinkley5 days ago
      Sometime around 1993 I was bored and picked up a Reader’s Digest my parents had lying around. In it was an article about how the oil fires Saddam set in Iraq were put out in about a quarter of the time the crews estimated.

      Volunteer oil well firefighters from a host of first world and some developing countries showed up and started trying to work together.

      The intense heat makes for slow going, and can melt not just people but also equipment. It turned out every country had solved a different part of the problem. The Russians used thermal mass - they attached the hose to the barrel of a tank and let the armor soak up heat for a while. Someone else had better heat shielding. The Americans (?) had perfected detonation to extinguish rather than ignite a fire. And someone had better protective gear.

      All of these techniques could be combined. Heat shielding on a tank means the machines you can get the equipment closer to the fire for longer, and the suits and explosives put the fire out faster so the capping crew can get in there.

      In the end they were doing several wells per day and multiple sites per week, instead of a few wells per week. Parallel invention doesn’t always end up at the exact same outcome.

      • datameta5 days ago
        I love this example! The unforeseen synergies of different methods attempting the same outcome cannot be overstated enough in my opinion. Each strategy has its own diminishing returns, and stacking them covers gaps each has.

        I think a great illustration of this today are SLaM methods that almost always seem to combine a low-drift high-noise technique with one that is high-drift and low-noise.

        • hinkley5 days ago
          I think where parallel discovery really shines is in operational excellence. Your best people have high tolerances for certain aspects of the work, the craft, and low tolerances for others. But to industrialize it needs to be accessible to tens of thousands, and they don’t have time for this shit.

          I expect that was a lot of the speed up. You can’t do eight wells a week if every well exhausts your team. Better working conditions mean faster cycling. Hell I bet whoever brought the best “Gatorade”, masseuse, and entertainment deserves more credit than they ever got.

    • pfdietz5 days ago
      > perhaps even enshittification

      This is rather silly, since steel today is far superior to the steel of his day. The complexity he bemoans is part of that process of improvement.

      • datameta5 days ago
        I did not mean to imply that steel quality has in any way continued to suffer. He was talking about the process of the early 20st century in comparison to the late 19th when steelmaking was handled more end-to-end from maker to user.

        I am talking about enshittification of digital applications and services compared to the earlier years of the information age.

        • xeonmc5 days ago
          The transitory enshittified steel subsided once scientific formalization of their requirements emerged. I wonder if the transition period of vibe-coded slop will eventually be supplanted with formal-verification that supersede even the quality of cottage codesmanship, or would it forever remain in snakeoil-ridden limbo due to unspecifiability of software taste unlike that of a material’s mechanical performance?
  • anton-c5 days ago
    As a jewelry maker and guitar player I am gonna enjoy this either way
    • datameta5 days ago
      And the strings of the guitar are an intersection of both interpretations! There are several core wire alloys used and many different kinds of winding wire to achieve different tone and magnetic response.

      Fun fact, a common older winding alloy for acoustic guitars was called 80/20 Bronze despite actually being copper/zinc alloy and therefore Brass!

      • convolvatron5 days ago
        bronze is a word used for all alloys of copper. brasses are a subset of bronzes.
        • datameta4 days ago
          Ah, this is what happens when one dredges up old knowledge and doesn't seek an updated understanding before sharing. Thanks for the correction on the colloquial classification.
  • perihelions5 days ago
    > "algebra (Taylor bought him the book, a gift Harry brought home to show off, and never forgot)"

    If anyone was hooked by this tangent, this was[0] "Todhunter’s[1] Algebra" [2] (1858? 1870? 1871? 1889?) you can peruse for free at [2].

    [0] https://www.readingsheffield.co.uk/harry-brearleys-reading-j...

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Todhunter

    [2] https://archive.org/details/algebraforuseofc00todhuoft

    • readthenotes15 days ago
      If you really want a tangent, Todhunter is the middle name of one of the best detective authors in the history of detective fiction: Rex Stout.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Stout

      The Timothy Hutton shows available on YouTube are a good introduction if you can get over the poor transcription to youtube.

      • LgWoodenBadger5 days ago
        IMO, Stick with the books please. The tv series you mention mischaracterizes everyone.
  • unixhero5 days ago
    But it isn't always stainless!
  • kissiel5 days ago
    [flagged]
  • superfunny5 days ago
    [flagged]
    • 5 days ago
      undefined
    • ReptileMan5 days ago
      First was Bach, then came Wagner, then Yngwie Malmsteen (yeah I know he is boring, but he was probably the one that showed the public this part of the metal lineage the clearest)
    • CuriouslyC5 days ago
      It would have been more interesting for sure. What is steel before death?