75 pointsby donohoe14 hours ago9 comments
  • Aurornis13 hours ago
    There's a supposed Duolingo Slack screenshot going around Twitter with an internal announcement: https://x.com/eugeneyan/status/1917034784355979479/photo/1

    Archived here: https://archive.is/zqk5z

    If I was an engineer at a company that made this announcement I would not be feeling great right now. The claims that writing code will become a smaller part of our jobs and that productivity expectations will rise set off some alarm bells.

    Some of the statements like "For example, we know that large language models work best with context" are alarming, as if the people writing this announcement have a very elementary understanding of how LLMs work but are making drastic policy changes based on their limited understanding.

    Imposing rules on developers like the requirement that they use AI for every task, no matter how small, and work through LLMs first instead of writing code feels like an idea that comes from non-developers looking to make a thought leadership splash. Everyone I know who leverages LLMs uses them as an assistant where appropriate, but trying to go full vibe-code mode where you act through the AI isn't a secret route to more productivity.

    • darth_avocado12 hours ago
      > Productivity expectations will rise (from the screenshot)

      This should tell you everything you need to know. It’s not about AI, it’s about using AI to use as an excuse to do what most corporations were already doing: extract more work out of employees without getting them a pay raise, and if they can’t provide that, get rid of them.

      • wodenokoto7 hours ago
        > It’s not about AI, it’s about using AI to use as an excuse to do what most corporations were already doing: extract more work out of employees without getting them a pay raise

        What's the point of tools if they don't make people work better?

        • spwa42 hours ago
          > What's the point of tools if they don't make people work better?

          You just covered exactly that.

    • pjmlp9 hours ago
      That is why I try to steer away projects whose ultimate goal is to remove people jobs, automatic cash out systems, AI, ecormerce sites for big retail chains that close down their physical shops, ....

      Duolingo are not the only ones, I am aware of a project where the whole translation team for internal trainings was replaced by AI automatic translation of training materials.

      Any developer that celebrates AI vibe coding, is going to get some bad vides in the coming years.

    • Tireings8 hours ago
      It comes from the idea that plenty of people don't like to explore and try things out.

      When I ask my collueges than you have the few enthusiasts and then the rest.

      The announcement sounds like 'start learning to use These tools' not vibecoding

    • anshumankmr10 hours ago
      Well, even the so called best model, o3 makes huge errors, there is a lot of bark in these models, but enough bite. So if and when they see the AI is a bit less than what people project it to be, they might begin cutting back on ambitious plans.
  • klipklop13 hours ago
    Number of people I know that used Duolingo successfully to be fluent in a new language: 0

    Number of people I expect to meet in the future that used "AI first" Duolingo that successfully became fluent in a new language: 0

    They don't even really have a functional product to begin with. Meaning that it can take the average person and help them competently speak a new language in a reasonable time frame. Vibe coding I guess can't make it any worse....

    • dustincoates11 hours ago
      I get that it's popular to slag on Duolingo, especially in language-learning communities, but Duolingo is great for getting people started.

      I'm fluent in French and immigrated here about a decade ago, and I wouldn't have done that if not for Duolingo. It didn't get me anywhere close to fluent itself (Assimil was the single best resource, but no one resource can you get you to fluent), but it got me started and it got me committed. For that, I'm grateful.

      • jxjnskkzxxhx10 hours ago
        There's something wrong with Duolingo in a way that I can't quite put my finger on it. I always feel like I'm learning to answer its questions and not learning the language. A key assumption of the app is that to answer its questions correctly you need to learn the language, but somehow I don't believe that's the case.
        • theshrike796 hours ago
          You're learning words and random phrases like "My uncle takes his plants for a walk every week".

          Not stuff that's actually useful.

          But it still builds vocabulary and is better than nothing for the price.

        • anal_reactor9 hours ago
          It's the same as Tinder. The business isn't about getting you dates, the business is selling you the fantasy of getting a date. Those two things are different, but for a new user, difficult to distinguish. Duolingo offers you the fantasy of speaking a new language.

          Of course it is possible to learn a language using Duolingo, just like it is possible to get dates on Tinder, but it's just not a good method. If you're new to learning foreign languages, you'd be better off signing up for a course (but that costs time and money), and if this is your n-th foreign language, then you'd rather get a book and some boring flashcard app.

          • climb_stealth6 hours ago
            Part of the problem might be that no one wants to pay anymore. I'm happy to pay for a course, but there is not a single in-person language course in my city left for the language I wanted to study.

            I booked the the single remaining one last year and shortly before the start they announced they will not run it anymore and instead do online classes only. Apparently the rent is too high and it just isn't viable anymore.

            It sucks all around :/

      • Larrikin11 hours ago
        This comment dips into the uncanny valley or sadly plant. It's possible 10 years ago it did help you but there's nothing about the current product that would have.
        • Shacklz7 hours ago
          I use Duolingo to learn French, for a few years already. It definitely can bring you up to A1/A2-levels of proficiency (at least for French), which is definitely a solid starting point to engage with the language further. In my case, I've started to take weekly evening-courses. If I started another language, I probably would start again with Duolingo for the super basic stuff, then start to learn vocabulary with Anki, and then start with some paid, organized course that guides me through the more complex parts.

          I still use Duolingo almost daily to have some continuous language exposure, for which I still find it useful (especially as the gamification helps with staying engaged). It has its limitations but it does help me. Just to give a bit of a counterpoint; I find your statement a bit overly broad.

        • dustincoates10 hours ago
          If Duolingo hired someone to be a plant and post under his real name on HN for over a decade just so one day he could make a lukewarm endorsement of the product in a reply to another comment, I'd have to question their business sense.
        • watwut10 hours ago
          It actually made me able to watch shows in Spanish. It just happened as a result of me doing Duolingo basically like a game.

          I was still in the middle of Spanish course when I realize I can sorta kinda watch and understand some shows, so I watched. (The watching itself then made me progress mucj further, but it would not happen without duolingo).

    • legacynl5 hours ago
      I love that whenever duolingo is mentioned all the armchair educational psychologists come out of the woodwork claiming that duolingo sucks because it's too easy or too much like a game.

      One of the most valuable determinants for learning a new language is regular practice. Answering 30 easy exercises correctly will do more for your language skill than 10 hard exercises of which you only answer 5 correctly.

      And easy questions have the added benefit of being less tedious and convincing more people to stick to the app.

    • rich_sasha10 hours ago
      It was easy, as a French speaker, to pick up a little Spanish for the holidays.

      To be honest though, the main thing that puts me off isn't the teaching quality (which is basic/so-so) but the plethora of weird patterns to keep you hooked. I don't buy the "we want you to succeed" justification. Streaks, streak freezes, begging notifications - anything to keep you looking at ads I guess.

    • pacomerh12 hours ago
      It's a game. Think of DuoLingo as a fun introduction, a springboard for serious language learning. People I know who use it have fun, but by no means are advanced in whatever language their learning.
    • yupyupyups9 hours ago
      I hope that this backfires asap before turning into a bigger problem.

      I happen to have a Duolingo account, and was once a customer. I will send an angry message to their support team of AI robbots and hope it gets carried up to the top.

      • yupyupyups6 hours ago
        I'm joking btw, not going to actually waste my time doing that.
    • poisonarena12 hours ago
      I am fluent in spanish, and duolingo was really helpful at the beginner stage. When I was beginning to learn. I think between living in mexico (total immersion), consuming spanish media only, and about an hour of duolingo every night it was a tremendous boon. Mostly for learning to spell/remember gender nouns, and learning vocabulary.. I have tried other apps but the gamification also helps.

      I have now been speaking spanish for 9 years and have no use for duolingo when it comes to spanish, but I always recommend it as a resource to level up when you are a beginner.

    • watwut10 hours ago
      Duolingo never even claimed they teach up to fluency. How much they promiss depends on language, but most developed one ends with B1.

      The fluency complaint is completely nonsensical. There is no in person class that would make you fluent, there is no textbook that would make you fluent.

      It is possible to criticize Duolingo, but the fluency claim kind of show you don't know what you talk about.

    • palmotea9 hours ago
      > Number of people I know that used Duolingo successfully to be fluent in a new language: 0

      But they say they're "the world's best way to learn a language," right there on their homepage: https://www.duolingo.com.

      So either no one has ever successfully become fluent in a foreign language (because not even the best tool can be used to successfully accomplish the task), or the tech industry is full of liars and its claims cannot be trusted.

      • chizhik-pyzhik9 hours ago
        "I read their marketing copy and it says they're the best"
  • Larrikin13 hours ago
    As someone who waffles back and forth between how conversational I am based on the topic and how much I've studied recently, this comes as no surprise.

    Nothing about Duolingo gives the impression they actually want you to learn the language. It presents itself as an easy way to start, but if you are more than a single undergrad class into the language and have used any outside resources, it's an obvious waste of time.

    Everything on the platform is just a slower form of the most basic note cards. Anki does everything the platform does faster. Anki isn't suitable for all task but Duolingo takes the basic note card and makes you learn at a slower pace.

    • theshrike796 hours ago
      It's gamified Anki with social pressure.

      If finding proper Anki decks for languages wasn't such a massive pain in the ass (Along with navigating the weird 30€ mobile apps for it, are they official, are they not? Can a free alternative do the same?), people would use Anki a lot more.

      With Duolingo you can just install, launch, pick a language and get going.

  • SirensOfTitan4 hours ago
    Right, so if the productivity gains were so blindingly obvious and immediate for everyone, mandates wouldn't be needed.

    These companies tried to quantify the productivity impact of work from home, so it's utterly bewildering to me that they would push these tool-use mandates without actually quantifying the impact LLM tools have on productivity. If it were just 'getting familiar' with AI tools to help define an AI-driven product mindset, I'd expect these CEOs to have more than a naive perception of the tools and their limitations.

    I honestly wonder where these mandates started--part of me feels like this is the nascent stage of a VC panic that their AI investment strategy might not work out.

  • nope10008 hours ago
    If people wanted that, they could just ask an LLM to be their language coach. The big issue is that with a foreign language, you cannot really verify that anything the model gives you is correct. And with how LLMs work, the wrong answers will look very convincing. I don't think that's a good idea.
  • qalmakka9 hours ago
    I don't know, AI seems quite antithetical to what Duolingo supposedly stands for. AI raison d'etre is to allow people to do stuff they cannot do themselves or replace human skill with automated processes. Duolingo literally sells language courses, in a world where translation jobs are getting less and less necessary thanks to AI being especially great at translating stuff.

    Also "AI first" is BS, until AI has a 100% accuracy it is only useful as long as there are still competent people around that are able to understand what the AI does. A level of competence that gets harder and harder to get in a world where AI assistants allow you to get by by just pressing enter and producing poor quality slop.

    Companies and management want to _replace_ human labour because just they don't understand that AI works best _alongside_ people. This doesn't surprise me; one of the worst problems in IT right now is that IT is both pervasive and extraordinarily sector-specific. Capital is in the hands of people that not only don't understand how IT and computers work in detail, but don't even understand how little they understand in the first place

  • jerryseff12 hours ago
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  • ChessviaAI14 hours ago
    It feels like we're watching the playbook for AI-native companies emerge in real time.

    Duolingo’s approach, explicitly tying headcount to proof-of-automation limits, baking AI usage into performance reviews, and prioritizing AI-first systems over retrofitting old workflows, is a glimpse at how "AI-first" won’t just mean using LLMs as a tool, but rebuilding the entire operational model around them.

    That said, it's a double-edged sword. Contract workers were crucial to Duolingo’s early scalability. Shifting to AI removes human bottlenecks, but also human nuance — and teaching language is deeply nuanced. It’ll be fascinating (and maybe a little uncomfortable) to see if mass AI content keeps Duolingo's educational quality high as they chase faster scaling.

    AI-first might win on cost and speed. But will it still win on outcomes?

    • Aurornis13 hours ago
      > keeps Duolingo's educational quality high as they chase faster scaling

      Duolingo is widely regarded as more of a game than a high-quality learning experience. People obvious learn something from it, but it's a running joke almost everywhere on social media that people can be 100s of days into their Duolingo streak and still not learn much.

      Getting people off of Duolingo and onto less gamified, more rigorous language learning courses is a common theme in the language learning world.

      • dbbk5 hours ago
        They even explicitly admit to this. In the recent Decoder podcast the CEO said they will always choose engagement and gamification over teaching you the 'best' way.

        Which is not a terrible strategy. Most people learning languages are doing it for fun or a new years resolution or whatever. If you're serious about learning a language for real (ie you've moved country) then of course you're gonna go to a more serious platform.

      • j_bum13 hours ago
        Any resources you’d recommend?

        I haven’t used Duolingo in over a decade, but recently I’ve become interested in learning conversational Spanish.

        • secstate11 hours ago
          Language Transfer
          • deckiedan9 hours ago
            Massive plus one for Language Transfer. It's well presented, interesting, and kept me engaged. The whole concept is finding connections to language you already know, and gets you thinking in fuller more complex thoughts and sentences really quickly. The audio lessons are free on various podcast platforms / YouTube etc.
    • krackers14 hours ago
      >Duolingo's educational quality high

      Was duolingo ever known for high educational quality? To me duolingo's main pitch was a way to gamify language learning. Of course it became a victim of its own success as soon as you could "pay to win".

      • npinsker14 hours ago
        I don't think so. I see its pitch as "the best kind of exercise is the one you do", maybe preferable to playing a game, but not an efficient way to learn. How useful it is to you will probably depend on how effective the sounds and streaks and home screen notification stuff is for keeping you motivated. Personally, I'm motivated by quick progress and outcomes (streaks don't do anything for me), so Anki is actually stickier, though I must be in the minority.

        Because they focus so much on beginning learners for whom nuance isn't important, this change doesn't seem like it'll hurt them.

        • morkalork13 hours ago
          Being successful at Duolingo was always being like that guy who wins scrabble tournaments in French and Spanish without being able to converse in them. It's just a game and winning at it doesn't necessarily align with being functional in it. Otherwise second language schools would have long been extinct by now.
      • nicce13 hours ago
        Far behind are the days when free version of Duolingo was playable. There are so many dark patterns these days to keep users coming back, gatekeeping something or otherwise to just push them to pay for the usage.
    • Zanfa10 hours ago
      > AI-first might win on cost and speed. But will it still win on outcomes?

      It will be a flop. Either it won't get implemented like the C-levels dreamed in the first place and will remain policy on paper only or it will be rolled back quietly once reality hits.

      "AI-first" is the "blockchain" of 2025.

    • alex_suzuki4 hours ago
      Username checks out, no em-dash needed.