69 pointsby alphabettsy17 hours ago7 comments
  • gnabgib16 hours ago
    Related Backblaze: Mounting Losses, Lawsuits, Sham Accounting, Insider Selling (262 points, 3 day ago, 158 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43802675
  • VTimofeenko16 hours ago
    TFA title seems odd. Article sez Backblaze has responded to the claims of "sham accounting" and (indirectly) to the claims that "customers backsups [are] at risk", yet the title wording implies that the backups are at risk as a consequence of BB responding.
    • dang14 hours ago
      Maybe if we quote them symnmetrically the problem will go away?
    • zeckalpha14 hours ago
      Ambiguous but different semantic commas.

      In one interpretation, it is a connective between two "claims" in a list.

      In the other, it is a consequence of the response (as you interpreted).

      This is worsened by the convention of putting punctuation inside quotation marks.

    • abrookewood15 hours ago
      Not really - if they continue to lose the money that they are losing, then they could go bankrupt. If they never reach profitability, then the only other option is to keep borrowing/raising cash.
  • DecentShoes15 hours ago
    What makes a company like this lose so much money? I'm paying 15$ a month for years for a tiny tiny bit of hard drive space. Where does all the money go? What's the big money sink with something like this?

    I'm not doubting it, just would like to understand.

    • fxd12311 hours ago
      The "Personal backup" pricing plan is $99 USD / year and includes "Unlimited data backup" and "one year version history" which implies they are storing much more than just your data at a given time.

      $99 would give you 5-6TB of data for consumer HDD costs. And then factor in that they are likely doing some type of additional backup/RAID it would be even less data per dollar. And that's not including maintenance, rent, and employees.

      Honestly I'm surprised they exist

    • Gigachad12 hours ago
      They offer unlimited storage. Probably a bunch from /r/datahoarder who have loaded up 10PB of junk.
    • anon700013 hours ago
      That’s even a lot, I’m paying like 75 cents for 135GB on b2. Extrapolating to a TB would be like $5.

      That’s what makes it make more sense to me.

    • buckle801715 hours ago
      You're paying for the hard drive, the server it goes into, the rack is in, the building it's in, and ask the power and maintenance for you to be able to access the data.
      • motorest11 hours ago
        > You're paying for the hard drive, the server it goes into, the rack is in, the building it's in, and ask the power and maintenance for you to be able to access the data.

        It's not even just the one drive. Data is stored across multiple drives, in multiple servers, hosted in multiple locations.

        People pay the likes of Backblaze for it's reliability and them fool themselves into believing it's a dude with a HD stashed in a shelf somewhere.

        • rbanffy9 hours ago
          > It's not even just the one drive

          Your data is scattered across multiple drives, but that doesn’t make it take up much more space. A terabyte stored in a RAID-5 array is 1.2 terabytes. Maybe the fixed price for unlimited storage part was a mistake, but the footprint overhead is relatively small. Also, keeping a year of history isn’t that much either unless you change every bit of the files multiple times. Using my BtrFS snapshots and Time Machine backups as a reference, normal data changes very little.

          • motorest8 hours ago
            > Your data is scattered across multiple drives, but that doesn’t make it take up much more space.

            That's besides the point. The point is that storing data in a service such as Backblaze requires more infrastructure than just that one HD in that one server in that one location.

            • rbanffy8 hours ago
              That's true. And you are your own support person.
      • c0brac0bra15 hours ago
        And the salaries, benefits, office space, supplies, etc for their employees.
      • abrookewood15 hours ago
        And the staff to manage it.
    • steveBK12315 hours ago
      I mean very easily.

      I was skeptical of the wave of "unlimited" (or very large) online backup/storage offerings that came out ~15 years ago, but I didn't expect it to take this long to unravel.

      Look at the offering at a glance right now they are offering $99/year unlimited, versioned backup of your home storage?

      That seems like peanuts compared to buying a set of drives, setting up, and managing a truly redundant & versioned backup solution takes home. I spent like $1500 on a RAID NAS a decade ago and fell behind on keeping the thing operational.

      • gruez14 hours ago
        >That seems like peanuts compared to buying a set of drives, setting up, and managing a truly redundant & versioned backup solution takes home. I spent like $1500 on a RAID NAS a decade ago and fell behind on keeping the thing operational.

        Running storage system is cheaper than you think. Look at hetzner for an upper bound on how much storage costs at scale. They offer 10 TB of storage for $31/month. It mentions having "RAID-based storage" and "backups", so this presumably includes redundancy. If you can get 4 customers paying $99/year, you're already breaking even on the server. Most people probably don't have 2.5 TB worth of stuff. Backblaze only does backups, so it isn't like dropbox where you can upload whatever you want onto it. Most people don't even have computers with 1TB storage, so you'll probably be able to fit far more than 4 customers per server. Of course, this doesn't cover salaries for your engineer or marketing people, but at least it's not like moviepass where they're selling $50 worth of movie tickets for $10.

        https://www.hetzner.com/storage/storage-share/

        • fxd12311 hours ago
          > Most people probably don't have 2.5 TB worth of stuff.

          But Backblaze is marketing itself towards people who do. The average person is not a backblaze customer

          • camtarn40 minutes ago
            Actually, kind of the opposite. A few years ago Backblaze posted that the economics of their solution relied on the average customer having less than 1.2TB of data. They explicitly do not support Linux users because they tend to average a larger amount of data and are thus not economical to support, even ignoring the extra costs to maintain a separate Linux client.
        • steveBK12312 hours ago
          If it’s so cheap to operate why have they continually lost money, possibly even committing accounting shenanigans to minimize the loss to a smaller number?
      • stubish14 hours ago
        Your $1500 includes all the overheads that a storage provider amortizes over their entire customer base. At scale, the cost comes down to the cost of the hard drives, plugging them in, keeping them on, and bandwidth. The margins are really thin, so you need to reduce costs further by doing things like powering down drives that are not in use, or leaving failed drives in racks until they can be replaced in bulk. And importantly, if you offer something unlimited, make sure that it is actually limited. In Backblaze's case, the only 'unlimited' offering is only for their custom backup software that only backs up a single PC, and more recently allows limited backup of external drives. You can only keep multiple TB in it if you have multiple TB powered up in your PC and keep your external drives attached enough so their backups don't get wiped. It is impractical for archiving and abuse. And if it was a problem, they just need to tweak the terms of service to disallow abuse as is traditional.
        • steveBK12312 hours ago
          If their price isn’t too cheap then why aren’t they making money?
      • Spooky2314 hours ago
        Capacity is cheap especially if you dedupe. IO is expensive.

        Most people don’t have that much data, and capacity grows over time with new drives.

        But… you need to be really disciplined to make money in a low margin business. I remember running the numbers on replicating something like backblaze in-house. It was just barely achievable, although I wasn’t crazy enough to shuck disks or build arrays.

      • Loughla15 hours ago
        Economy of scale maybe? You can get better prices at scale purchases?

        Otherwise you're correct and it doesn't make a bit of sense.

        • steveBK12310 hours ago
          It’s been nearly 20 years and they are still running at a loss. Sounds like they haven’t found those economies of scale yet.
        • colechristensen15 hours ago
          There really aren't economies of scale buying hard drives.
      • 15 hours ago
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      • dylan60414 hours ago
        I bought a Drobo with the same intent of it being my online redundant array type storage while the original copies were on external HDDs that were placed back in their original retail packaging. The Drobo itself was only connected to computer when necessary but left plugged in to mains when one day it was needed and multiple drives failed to mount--more than could be recovered.

        I used to really be into all of the hardware stuff like that building 64 disk arrays and maintaining multiples for edit bays. Now, I'm so sick of it. I just want a plug-n-pray system that works out of the box and does not need maintaining. But of course I know that's not how gear works. So make it someone else's problem and throw money at that problem. $99/year sounds like an excellent bargain. apparently, too excellent

        • steveBK12314 hours ago
          Put another way - if you are a Silicon Valley SWE, spending more than 15-60 minutes per year of your own time is more “expensive” than just giving backblaze $99/yr.
  • xupybd16 hours ago
    This might all be true but coming from a short seller seems off.
    • sokoloff15 hours ago
      Hindenburg Research nailed the Nikola story a few years ago. I think it’s a valid set of actions to keep a market healthier than if it didn’t exist.

      By all means be aware of the possible bias, but if you believe your short thesis enough to put money behind it, I’m more rather than less inclined to believe that you believe.

      • jmull14 hours ago
        > if you believe your short thesis enough to put money behind it, I’m more rather than less inclined to believe that you believe

        Not really. The short seller just needs enough people to believe their claims. How true or important those claims really are is only relevant to the extent it helps or hurts the narrative.

      • rainsford15 hours ago
        I don't totally disagree with the idea that putting your money where your mouth is lends some degree of credibility. But when you're taking a short position on a company and then publicly sharing opinions and information that might drive down the stock price of that very same company, it's reasonable to ask if they're simply taking a financial position in a theory they believe in or trying to create a set of circumstances that benefit their financial position.

        To put it another way, the incentives for an organization that benefits from a stock price going down mean you should take anything negative they say about the financial health of that stock with an enormous grain of salt. Making a bet that a stock will go down makes me think you believe the stock will go down, but only to the extent that making that bet won't actually drive the stock price down absent any other factor. A short selling firm (or people connected to a short selling firm) putting out press releases designed to drive down a particular stock price 100% don't meet that bar, unless they can demonstrate they have no financial stake in the outcome.

        • steveBK12315 hours ago
          People make these statements about shorts but never about longs.

          Shorting stock is very hard, the upwards trajectory of the market and overall optimism of American market participants works against you.

          There are far far far more hype men on the long side than short.

        • dylan60414 hours ago
          Putting you money where you mouth goes has limits too though. In poker, there's the concept of buying the pot. As a short, you can try to continue funding your play in hopes everyone else becomes convinced. Of course, you're also going to want to use your position to convince others your play is sound with whatever you have at your disposal. So blog away and convince everyone you are the sane play while hoping nobody realizes your description of the emperor's clothes is made up
          • rbanffy8 hours ago
            Every time you think you are smart and everyone else is stupid, you are probably wrong.

            I remember figuring it out at a bank office while trying to decide which line was the right one. While bank branch offices with lines are rare these days, the concept remains solid.

      • rbanffy8 hours ago
        If you put money on your shirt AND make public claims that you’re right and the shares are catastrophically overvalued, those two kind of cancel out.

        They might be right that Backblaze is doing shady accounting, but they also might benefit from the perception the company is doing shady accounting.

        • sokoloff3 hours ago
          We have people buying shares and arguing their thesis that the company is undervalued all the time.

          Those people also stand to benefit yet many people see it as fundamentally different for reasons that escape me.

    • gruez15 hours ago
      Where do you want the accusation to come from? Backblaze isn't exactly the type of company that new york times or propublica are going to go after. Hardly anyone heard of them outside of techies.
      • 15 hours ago
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      • xupybd14 hours ago
        I don't think that question is relevant.

        I see potential bias is all.

        Is there a perfect source for this information? No idea.

  • throwaway51916 hours ago
    Edit: See following comment.
  • scarface_7413 hours ago
    I always held BackBlaze up as one of the very few companies that went from initial value proposition, to taking investor funding to going public without enshittification.

    I don’t have an opinion on the current controversy. My issue with BackBlaze is that they haven’t been aggressive enough about raising prices to be profitable. I gladly give companies money to give me a service.

    I no longer use their service. But only because I took my plex server down years ago and copied my media to my AWS Account (S3 Glacier Deep Archive).

  • dboreham14 hours ago
    Oh. That sounds quite bad. Presumably in practice they would be acquired by Amazon rather than simply shut down service overnight.
    • dylan60414 hours ago
      Ugh, your b2 to s3 migration would be "fun". Also, welcome to egress charges!
      • gruez14 hours ago
        >Also, welcome to egress charges!

        b2 has 3x free egress though?

        • Zetaphor10 hours ago
          Their point is that Amazon does not, and presumably would not keep that offer if they were to acquire B2
          • rbanffy8 hours ago
            Backblaze can always opt for a Peoplesoft-like poison pill.

            Oracle went on and still took over them and that’s how Workday was born.