120 pointsby Dotnaught7 hours ago21 comments
  • bangaladore7 hours ago
    To be clear, I'm don't like the Microsoft has a proprietary Marketplace, but a company openly violating the terms of use for their own profit is a bit much in my opinion.

    > Cursor allegedly has been flouting Microsoft terms-of-service rules for some time now by setting up a reverse proxy to mask its network requests to the endpoints used by the Microsoft Visual Studio Marketplace. This allows Cursor users to install VS Code extensions from Microsoft's market. Other VS Code forks tend to point to Open VSX, an alternative extension marketplace.

    • madeofpalk7 hours ago
      Yeah, I've noticed this using cursor. I was surprised that the extension marketplace seemed... identical to VS Code.
    • AIPedant6 hours ago
      The Cursor founders (technically the company is called Anysphere, Inc) are all young MIT grads. What they needed is a 40-year-old with a degree from Fitchburg State who could say "Woah, don't do that! It's not worth the long-term risk!"
      • pier258 minutes ago
        Exactly. What were they expecting would happen? They are breaking the tos while competing with Microsoft.
      • londons_explore6 hours ago
        It is worth the long term risk.

        Either you don't get caught and can move faster, or you get caught and the penalty is usually small and a long way down the line, by which time your company will have either folded or grown enough to pay without difficulty.

        • electroly5 hours ago
          That's the play when your adversary is regulation--the government moves slowly, court cases move even slower, and you can grease the wheels politically.

          That is not the scenario here. Cursor is being hunted by an extremely motivated corporate competitor. Cursor has been leeching the gorilla's blood and the gorilla finally noticed. Microsoft doesn't (necessarily) need the law here. They have it if they need it, but they can kill Cursor without needing to sue them. The disastrous outcome isn't a penalty--it's a critical mass of users switching to Copilot because they can't use their Microsoft extensions in Cursor any more. Cutting off the extensions on the same day that their Cursor clone went live was effectively a declaration of war from Microsoft.

          • moi23886 minutes ago
            What cursor clone?
            • electroly2 minutes ago
              Agent mode in Copilot. It all went down on April 4th: the rollout of agent mode to all users, and the sudden enforcement of the license in their C++ extension.
        • jonstewart3 hours ago
          Or, hear me out, Microsoft decides you’d make excellent additions its House of Faces For IDE/Compiler Competitors and your face is on the wall before you know what happened.
      • thenipper4 hours ago
        The amount of Boston in this comment is amazing. And 100% true
        • 3 hours ago
          undefined
      • sterlind6 hours ago
        exactly! laws are for old geezers who went to State, not young superstars with fancy degrees. MIT negotiated diplomatic immunity for its graduates, after all. that's why Sam Bankman-Fried got acquitted when FTX went under.
    • m4635 hours ago
      lol, Microsoft has been doing this kind of thing for a while...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation#Antitrust

      • bangaladore2 hours ago
        While its fair to claim Microsoft has legal issues, I'm not sure what similarity you are drawing to what Cursor is doing.
  • kstrauser7 hours ago
    And this is why I'm using Zed today. I'm deadly serious. I was a huge proponent of VSCode at first but I've soured on it, and now I don't want my workflow to depend on it in any way.

    Awesome software, but I don't trust the upstream org further than I must.

    • eviks2 hours ago
      Does Zed have a comparable C++ extension?
      • dharmaban hour ago
        Zed uses tree-sitter and LSP; most popular languages do not require extensions, and extensions for niche languages are shockingly easy to write. Literally 100-300 lines of Rust boilerplate and around 300 lines of config boilerplate, with minimal maintenance/upkeep.

        https://zed.dev/docs/languages/cpp

    • notnmeyer4 hours ago
      zed is veerrrry good. i really appreciate the clean ui compared to vscode and its ilk. don’t love the pricing they just announced though. i don’t mind paying for my tools, but it not being unlimited scares me off slightly.
      • dharmaban hour ago
        I think it's totally fair for them to charge for an optional feature that requires a cloud service. And if you don't like their pricing you can use a different provider, including self-hosted ones.
      • kstrauser4 hours ago
        Agreed, but at least that's an optional feature you can choose to pay for if you want to. And if that changes, I'll drop it and head back to a Free editor.
    • hobs7 hours ago
      Reminds when I excited to see Azure Data Studio adding Postgres support, but it was actually a binary extension with no ability to fix or change anything and no way for other useful databases to extend and use the functionality; they had spent all the time and effort to make sure nobody could do something like it but them.

      Weird, ADS is dead and nobody spent any time on it, I wonder why.

    • rs1867 hours ago
      So how do you get intellisense and debug C++ in Zed?
      • dharmab6 hours ago
        There's a great doc on exactly how Zed handles syntax and intellisense-style completions: https://zed.dev/docs/configuring-languages

        Debugging isn't in yet, but is actively being worked on and planned for public release before 1.0: https://github.com/zed-industries/zed/issues/5065, there's an active channel in their Discord discussing the development of the feature.

        • AbuAssaran hour ago
          Will they use DAP?
          • dharmab36 minutes ago
            My understanding is that DAP support is merged into their internal builds and is being polished up for a public release.
      • yoyohello137 hours ago
        clangd is an LSP. You can use it in any editor with LSP support https://clangd.llvm.org/
        • hu35 hours ago
          Why isn't Cursor using this by default then?
      • LoganDark7 hours ago
        Zed uses open-source language servers. It just doesn't rely on proprietary extensions.

        I actually worked a bunch on the language server logic in Zed trying to get a bunch of it to work on Windows. All I have to say about that is: ugh.

    • lysace7 hours ago
      Still using VSCode, but you kind of know that's it's going to go sour eventually. It is Microsoft. :/

      I figure e.g. emacs will always be there when that happens.

      All I need is a Github Copilot clone and a good code search feature.

      Oh and automatic reloads of open but unchanged buffers when switching between git branches.

      Oh and the ssh remote extension.

      • kstrauser6 hours ago
        > All I need is a Github Copilot clone

        I'm using https://github.com/copilot-emacs/copilot.el

        > good code search feature.

        project-find-regexp is a nice start.

        > Oh and automatic reloads of open but unchanged buffers when switching between git branches.

        (global-auto-revert-mode t)

        > Oh and the ssh remote extension.

        I haven't compared it to Tramp.

      • bryanlarsen6 hours ago
        > All I need is a Github Copilot clone

        or you could just use copilot through copilot.el

        > and a good code search feature.

        Like through helm or ivy?

        > Oh and automatic reloads of open but unchanged buffers when switching between git branches.

        My emacs does that, and I don't think I did anything special to get it.

        > Oh and the ssh remote extension.

        like tramp?

      • baq32 minutes ago
        vscode find in files is literally ripgrep FYI.
      • dharmaban hour ago
        You're almost describing Zed to a T.
      • znpy7 hours ago
        Emacs user here, have used vscode in the past.

        Yep, vscode is more intuitive.

        However emacs is mostly the kind of thing you dedicate a couple of months of discomfort and enjoy for the rest of your life. Quite literally.

        Spending some money on the “mastering emacs” book (https://www.masteringemacs.org/) is worth imho.

        Bonus point: little by little you start enjoying doing more stuff in emacs. It’s a meme, but it’s true.

        • kstrauser7 hours ago
          I second all this. I'm using Zed today, but I was using Emacs for 20 years, then Sublime/VSCode/etc. for a few, and now Zed. If it disappears, I'm going right back to Emacs without a moment's hesitation.

          And "Mastering Emacs" is brilliant.

        • lysace7 hours ago
          I spent 25 years using emacs before vscode (1997 to 2022-ish). I didn't go deep, I mostly just enjoyed the core parts of emacs + ccmode. I don't enjoy LISP but I still enjoy emacs, if that makes any sense.

          MS made some very real and very usable innovations. Emacs hackers/maintainers would be wise to copy them, like I'm sure Microsoft copied things from emacs.

          It's a bit like the UI aspect of the browser wars. Everyone wins when good things are cloned and then iteratively improved upon.

          • datadrivenangel6 hours ago
            What are the ways that VScode is better than Emacs?
            • baq27 minutes ago
              vscode does three things extremely well: defaults, defaults and defaults. The most important ‘you just need M-x do-whatever after installing the whatever-doer package’ is supported out of the box (no details on purpose, try running emacs or vim without any config and compare to a clean fresh install of vscode).
            • lysace6 hours ago
              I listed my favorites above.

              Generalizing it: Having smart people who really understand UX helps a lot with minimizing those months of pain before the payoff.

  • yoyohello137 hours ago
    Look, if you willingly have any piece of your stack relying on Microsoft you have to be ready for the rug pull. They WILL fuck you, it's guaranteed.
    • aranchelk7 hours ago
      Not to quibble, but VSCode (and GitHub for that matter) are part of my tooling, not part of any of my stacks.

      To me the former is tolerable, the latter is not.

      • corytheboyd7 hours ago
        I think they are talking about products like Cursor.
        • aranchelk6 hours ago
          Ah, that’s a painful situation.
          • corytheboyd6 hours ago
            Eh MS wasn’t going to just let VSCode derivatives soak up all the AI gold rush money, these companies knew the risks. I wonder what it’s going to mean for projects like Zig, a migration of VSCode refugees could crank things up to 11 pretty quick.
            • degurechaff4 hours ago
              Zed don't have many extensions like VSCode.
            • hansvm6 hours ago
              How do VSCode refugees impact a project like Zig?
              • cstrahan5 hours ago
                I would bet they meant the editor “Zed”.
      • lakomen6 hours ago
        [dead]
    • IcyWindows4 hours ago
      I don't see how it can be a rug pull when in this case it was clearly against the terms of use?
    • ohgr6 hours ago
      Yep. Was a Microsoft dev from 1992 until 2017. Won’t touch them now because I spent my entire career rewriting rug pulls. It paid off a mortgage and fed me well but it was a bad outcome for my orgs and customers.

      If anyone remembers WCF/AppFabric/WWF and Silverlight, that was the last stack I rewrote someone out of the shit on.

      • aggieNick02an hour ago
        There was a lot of hype and momentum around Silverlight back in the day, until their wasn't. You got a cross-platform (Mac/Windows) WPF-like UI and C# programming environment, which was powerful.

        I had the fortune to be involved developing the LEGO Mindstorms EV3 programming software. Under the hood, it was a small web browser shell (using Mono on Mac and WPF on Windows) around a Silverlight Out-of-Browser app. Anything beyond the permissions of the Silverlight app (e.g. bluetooth/USB comms) was an RPC from Silverlight to the shell.

        After completing the Mac/Windows app, LEGO wanted to deliver a similar experience on iPad. There was no Silverlight there, and it was clear there never would be. But we were able to leverage Xamarin stuff to reuse most of the same codebase, just with an iOS UI on top.

      • mrjan hour ago
        I started my career rewriting a product using Microsoft's DNA business server with Java and never looked back. I'm shocked this keeps happening, honestly. I guess I'm a "never again" sort but surprised there's not more companies refusing to deal with Microsoft.

        Due to experiences like that I refused to buy volume licenses from them, too. Sometime later I got an audit demand for which I had a reply ready.

        "lol, no."

      • Aloha4 hours ago
        I’m still dealing with the long goodbye of a silverlight app which now must be somehow ported.
    • kittikitti7 hours ago
      Then they will gaslight you.
    • znpy7 hours ago
      Anything that’s not gpl-licensed is going to pull the rug from under your feet, people should have learned this by now.

      Also, if you do open source contributions, never ever agree to assign copyright to the project: doing so means the project owners can relicense the code base, even towards proprietary license.

      • tuveson6 hours ago
        FreeBSD must be pulling a very long con, then.
        • znpy5 hours ago
          Uh, yes?

          Half of the initial mac os x kernel was ripped off freebsd, giving pretty much nothing back.

          Afaik netapp is also basing their system on bsd.

          Sony uses freebsd as the OS for their playstation.

          And many more, giving essentially nothing back.

        • hedora5 hours ago
          Yeah.

          I think project governance matters more than license, and the BSDs are great examples.

          Having said that, I’ve soured on the GPL. V3 more-or-less bans companies from selling you hardware that runs free software, but lets Google, Meta, etc use the software to expand their cloud-based monopolies where surveillance capitalism and enshittification have won out.

          AGPL or BSL seem much better if you want free as in freedom. BSD and Apache at least don’t force your software off of machines that end users control.

          Yes, BSL is not open (TM) or free (TM) or whatever. It’s still better IMHO, since it at least has some path to revenue for the developers.

      • kstrauser6 hours ago
        Absolutely. I signed one copyright assignment, ever, with the FSF. I trust them enough to do that, but they're just about the only ones.
  • rs1867 hours ago
    The intellisense from clangd is much better and faster than the Microsoft C++ extension, if you can set up a compile_commands.json. Although debugging still relies on the Microsoft extension. Although I don't think it's going to be hard to create an extension just for debugging (if it does not already exist?)
    • geertj7 hours ago
      Yes, even on medium sized code bases (few 100K lines), the Microsoft C++ extension gets extremely slow. Clangd is a much better option.
    • senderista4 hours ago
      Not just faster, I have never been able to get jump to declaration/definition/references to work reliably without clangd.
    • Rucadi7 hours ago
      Lldb and rr (midas) have vscode extensions
  • electroly6 hours ago
    I love Cursor deeply but choosing to be a VSCode fork instead of a VSCode extension was a fatal choice. In the long term I think they either have to retool as an extension or they will go out of business. You can only publicly flout Microsoft's licenses for so long while making a competitor to one of their AAA products.
    • baq21 minutes ago
      They wouldn’t take off if they weren’t a vscode fork. They may die a heroic death now having kickstarted the proper AI IDE. (Copilot was first and it was… nice? then it sucked so bad everyone jumped ship, remember? MS needed that kick in the balls.)
    • datadrivenangel6 hours ago
      Apparently VSCode doesn't allow extensions to do the same amount of integration as the Cursor people want...
      • londons_explore6 hours ago
        Extensions aren't sandboxed... You can literally do anything.

        Maybe against the store rules tho, dunno.

    • anon70006 hours ago
      Eh, I mean it's a fork. They can keep updating their fork forever. Reality is they want complete control over the product, and VS Code doesn't expose everything in the extension API.
      • electroly6 hours ago
        Sure, but they depend on a bunch of Microsoft proprietary extensions (that they can't fork) that ban usage in VSCode forks, and they knew this when they made the choice. This was an inevitable outcome from Microsoft's side. I'm sure they want to remain in business more than they want complete control over the product.
  • concerndc1tizen7 hours ago
    Do you guys ever feel tired of 'sounding the alarm'?

    I feel like I've been doing that for years on a wide range of topics, but every time it's like you're talking to cult members.

    How do you break through to people? People say things like "you're overthinking it", "that's never going to happen", "I don't care because I like using VSCode and not alternatives".

    Is it individualism? That they only consider their own narrow short-term interests, and have become blind to collective problems?

    • 4 hours ago
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    • eYrKEC24 hours ago
      That's what "word to the wise" means -- you can't tell most people __anything__.

      The opening of Proverbs has:

      1:5. Let the wise hear and increase in learning[...]

    • beeflet4 hours ago
      I think the problem with "sounding the alarm" is that it's not a tsunami that will immediately wipe out everything, it's more of a slow flood. The business strategy is boiling the frog.
    • hedora5 hours ago
      I just use the OSS vs code builds at home. (Work uses vscode).

      Ever since I got remote mode working, I haven’t noticed any missing functionality I care about. (I also haven’t tried installing extensions for the pile of commercial services work uses, and that I wouldn’t pay for anyway.)

      Edit: Since cursor now has near infinite VC money, perhaps they should fund a few open source devs to work on those forks. Why should they get a free ride?

    • anon70006 hours ago
      It's tradeoffs all the way down. VSCode remains one of the best intro editors, because it's free, has next to zero learning curve, and a robust extension ecosystem. I mean, what even is the argument here? That it's not completely open in every possible way? Do we feel so strongly about the heaps of paid IDEs that are completely closed source?
      • kstrauser6 hours ago
        > Do we feel so strongly about the heaps of paid IDEs that are completely closed source?

        Me, personally? No, because they're honest about it. I use BBEdit and Nova frequently on my Mac. Those are as closed source as it gets. They never pretend otherwise, though. You pay your money and you know what you're getting. VSCode tries really hard to appear to be open source, as long as you're willing to ignore the million places where they aren't. (Python devs: are you using PyLance? I'm talking to you.)

        And ironically, those closed editors seem to play more nicely with the ecosystem as a whole. Neither BBEdit nor Nova have ever tried to talk me into installing closed plugins, and the same plugins that work with them work great in Emacs and Zed.

        If I go to one bar that charged $5 per beer, and another that gives free beer but makes you rent single-use mugs for $5, even though the end price is identical, the rental bar's going to annoy me horrendously. Just admit what it is and let people judge on their own merits.

    • yoyohello136 hours ago
      I’ve just lost all hope and have rock bottom expectations. Probably not the healthiest coping mechanism.
    • tbrownaw5 hours ago
      Meh. If it does eventually go away, it wouldn't be the first time I've switched editors. Which turns out to not actually be all that hard to do.

      > Is it individualism? That they only consider their own narrow short-term interests, and have become blind to collective problems?

      What collective problem, that someone might have to unexpectedly burn a weekend writing a new editor? That {emacs|vim} isn't popular enough? That people might have to go install openjdk in order to start using eclipse?

    • Guthur6 hours ago
      I think ultimately we're mostly just not as clever as we think we are, which I think unfortunately we must accept.

      Where this has become increasingly problematic is rampant materialism and corporatism.

      If the only real motivator in town, especially for the powerful, is material gain then there is nothing to constrain wanton greed. This becomes even more pronounced with corporations because their overtly stated purpose is not but greed, so even if the individual actors have some transcend moral compass they will be in conflict to their programmed imperative to "do their job".

      Currently many of the powerful are materialistic and materialism can bring worldly power. Other political paradigms may come to the fore but as it takes a form and gravity it will likely come into some dialectic conflict with the prevailing materialistic status quo. That may be a peaceful resolution, but I'd not be certain of that.

    • mosura6 hours ago
      And when it turns out you were right the whole time they will pretend no one saw it coming and blame you for the problem.

      You just have to let go of things you have no real influence over.

  • kentonv6 hours ago
    The clangd extension is better anyway, and is open source.

    The Microsoft C++ extension is not open source; not sure what people were expecting here.

  • kazinator2 hours ago
    This is just Microsoft being classic Microsoft.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code

  • elashri6 hours ago
    At least I know one alternative that is on bar (even better according to some people) for the C++ MS extension. What I am worried more about is the Jupyter Notebook MS extensions. I cannot find a suitable alternative and sometimes I am not being able to use it on windsurf/VSCodium (manually installing vsix). I am surprised by that taking into consideration how Jupyter notebooks relevance in data science and ML.
  • eikenberry6 hours ago
    > Visual Studio Code (VS Code) no longer works with derivative products such as VS Codium [..]

    They seem to have this backward. Visual Studio Code is a derivative product of VS Codium.

    • voxic115 hours ago
      No VS Codium is just a alternative build of Visual Studio Code.

      > This is a repository of scripts to automatically build Microsoft's vscode repository into freely-licensed binaries with a community-driven default configuration.

      https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium

      • eikenberry5 hours ago
        I thought it was similar to the Chromium/Chrome situation. The naming implied that. But I don't use it and don't follow it that closely. Thanks for the clarification.
    • 5 hours ago
      undefined
  • paxys6 hours ago
    Shitty move (as expected from Microsoft) but I don't see the bigger issue. The beauty of open source is that you can always roll back to a version that did work. Of course continued developement and support from there on is your problem, but Microsoft never owed that to you anyways. Cursor, Codium and all the other VS Code forks have unlimited VC funding and are worth tens of billions of dollars combined. They can afford to contribute back to the ecosystem.
    • ndiddy6 hours ago
      The C/C++ extension isn't open source though, and that's where the "doesn't work on forks" DRM is implemented. At least the clangd extension is open source and is a viable alternative.
      • paxys6 hours ago
        Well if it isn't open source then they should never have been using it in the first place.
  • shmerl2 hours ago
    FYI, neovim has LSP and DAP support, as well as a bunch of other editors.
    • tcoff91an hour ago
      Neovim is a godsend, I would be in despair without it.
    • Spivakan hour ago
      neovim is a truly beautiful piece of software that is impossible to undersell. It has made vim into a full feature complete IDE for every language finally with a good editor :P
  • AlienRobot6 hours ago
    I don't understand the problem. It sounds like the C/C++ extension was proprietary. This sort of thing can always happen when you rely on proprietary software. Make an open source C/C++ extension and you wouldn't have this problem.
    • zzo38computer22 minutes ago
      Yes, that is what I thought, too. (It would be a good idea to have a open source C/C++ extension anyways, whether or not the proprietary extension stops working with non-Microsoft code.) (Maybe there is such extension; I don't know; I don't use VS Code and VS Codium etc.)
  • jonstewart7 hours ago
    The hilarious part is that old fart C++ programmers (like me) have been the ones most leery of VS Code. Microsoft’s gonna Microsoft, ‘specially with compilers.
    • kstrauser6 hours ago
      "Don't be paranoid", they said.

      "That's ancient history", they said.

      "Lucy will hold the football this time for sure", they said.

    • bryancoxwell5 hours ago
      What do you prefer to VSCode? Just started a job where I’ll be working in C++ and looking for alternatives
      • voidsparkan hour ago
        CLion or Visual Studio.
      • jonstewart3 hours ago
        Well, VisualStudio for one. If you’re targeting Windows, you should consider it. VS Code feels slow to me in a way VS doesn’t.

        I spent most of the past ~fifteen years working in Sublime and just switched between that and the terminal for build and test—not fancy, but then, C++ coding isn’t a speedrun. Sublime is clean, fast, and portable.

        However, dev tooling has advanced so much now that I started learning and using neovim last year so I could take advantage of good syntax highlighting, LSP, and CoPilot. I don’t get enough daily reps to be good at core vi yet (I am a team manager so most of my time is spent asking questions of devs prefixed with “This is a really dumb question, but”) but despite all the techbros who’ve flocked to it I think neovim is pretty good technology and responsive. You can get the tooling features but control UI/UX; for me, I want as much code on the screen as possible, and I especially resent widgets that eat into vertical space. I started with one of the off-the-shelf all-in-one init.lua configs off github, but it was too complicated and I quickly broke things. What’s worked better is going through a video series on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHTeCSVAFNY&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN...) and building up the init.lua I want from scratch. As noted, I’m not great with it, especially the normal vim motions, but I’ve learned to get around, it’s fast, I can see my code without a million distracting widgets, and I get the benefit of clangd and CoPilot.

        • dustbunny16 minutes ago
          I have almost the exact same opinion. In that I hate distracting widgets and things that eat vertical space. I spent about a week getting nvim setup. I write code all day. I still have VSCode day to day because I'm so used to it/fast with it (I use vim motions within it).

          But to me the appeal of nvim is being able to fully remove everything I dislike.

  • zb35 hours ago
    People on this site will never ever learn that if a company (especially a profitable one) invests into something and then gives it away for free, there must be some kind of strings attached.
  • silverwind6 hours ago
    Glad I'm using Sublime Text.
  • Mystery-Machine5 hours ago
    How is it not open-source?

    It's licensed under MIT + VS Marketplace Terms: https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-cpptools?tab=License-1-o...

    If you fork it and don't use VS Marketplace, it's only MIT. Or am I missing something?

  • hexo7 hours ago
    Good. Now it's time to learn from this important lesson.
  • 7 hours ago
    undefined
  • DeepYogurt3 hours ago
    lol