404 pointsby c4205 days ago16 comments
  • imiric5 days ago
    A whistleblower is not required to determine that Meta, and all adtech companies, have been severely damaging not just to the US, but to all governments and societies where these platforms are used. They don't need to collude with any adversarial government for this to be true.

    The same tools built to manipulate people into buying things, are used to manipulate them into thinking and acting in ways that could be beneficial to someone. Advertising and propaganda use the same tactics, after all. When these tools are accessible to anyone, including political adversaries, it would be naive to think that they're not being used for information warfare.

    The Cambridge Analytica leak was just the tip of the iceberg. These companies and agencies are still operating at a global scale, and business is booming. Why adtech companies weren't heavily investigated and regulated after this became public is beyond me. These are matters of national security, which anyone sane would consider more important than any financial or practical value they might have.

    Banning TikTok was a step in the right direction, but that's far from the only service that needs to be heavily regulated. And even that decision is flip-flopped and very controversial, so the idea of going beyond must be unthinkable. Yet not doing so will lead to the eventual downfall of the US, and the current western hegemony. The instability we're seeing now is just the beginning, and my only hope is that it doesn't escalate to a major global conflict.

    • DrScientist5 days ago
      On the other hand these tools do allow individuals to connect and share.

      I see it like politics ( at least the way it's managed in the UK ) - democracy means everyone get's to vote, leaflet door to door, politically organise etc. However there are ( in the non-online space ) strict regulations about money not being able to buy a larger voice - political spending is(was) strictly limited. You can't use broadcast media for political ads, apart from the government allocated slots.....

      The regulations haven't kept up with the digital world - but they need to. Looking at what unfettered money has done to US politics is all the incentive you need.

      One of the core problems is astroturfing is so easy online - money pretending to be people - in the end, I think the only solution is the loss of anonymity online - anonymity enables sock puppetry and astroturfing.

      ie if we want to keep people's freedoms online to say what they want ( but within the law ), but at the same time stop money drowning out all voices, then you have to know what's automated and what's real - and people need to be held accountable for what they say or do - that's how the real world works.

      You don't need authoritarian laws regulating content - social peer pressure is quite effective - after all democracy is the tyranny of the majority.

      • midnightblue4 days ago
        > On the other hand these tools do allow individuals to connect and share.

        Ok, Mark. That's enough.

        Any coder can build a tool that allows individuals to connect and share. It's not a unique feature of Meta tools.

        The unique property of Meta is that they have a hegemony. Which is ok.

        They went further than that, though, and built the infrastructure for influencing the decisions of individuals. That's no longer ok.

      • freehorse5 days ago
        Blogging platforms also allow people to connect and share, but are prob less profitable. A lot of the role of blogs was taken over by social media, this created larger networks but with a lot of downsides. But these downsides are not inherent to all the online platforms where people can connect and share.
        • Clubber5 days ago
          Blogging is typically unidirectional, like TV or radio. You get to hear what someone says, but unless they turn on comments and actually read them, you don't get to have a conversation.
          • freehorse4 days ago
            In the blogosphere (at least the part I was in) most used to have comments turned on, and at very least pingbacks were definitely common practice . There used to be communities around blogs with similar theme/views and usually blogs had a sidebar with links to other blogs, linking to the newest articles there. People used to write and refer to what others wrote. I assume there must have been also isolated blogs, as there are practically isolated people in social media, but there were definitely also very vibrant communities.
            • surge4 days ago
              So did Usenet, no one cares. They simply require you go to 18 different sites to follow what friends are up to. Tumblr would just be the ad tech company instead, or the blog hosting company, for a while it was MySpace.

              It's either free and supported by ads, or self hosted or comes with a cost and doesn't gain mass adoption.

              When did the comments here get to the point they can't think past 1st order magnitude effects or remember genuinely how things actually were. Your grandma didn't have a blog to follow the grandkids. Yeah, there's a one off exception or two, but nothing at the scale of MySpace and later social media companies.

              • freehorse3 days ago
                Blogs did not require one to be a technical genius. A lot of non-technical people had blogs. And ads existing per se is not what we discuss here.

                Blogs require an effort to post sth because you cannot get away with posting a catchy 2-phrases sentence or a photo (you can, but that's not what they are for mainly). In this sense, yes, social media won because of convenience among other things. But the same convenience is what I find as problem with them.

                And where are we now? The role of social media as "grandmothers sharing with grandkids" are long gone, in most places at least (cannot speak of the whole world). Very few from my social circles post in social media any mode. Most of the content is direct or indirect advertising (if it's not meta, it is the next door bar or yoga studio broadcasting posts), (semi-)professional content creators/influencers and, lastly, a lot of AI slop. Most people I know use facebook for events and the like, and which is definitely not what facebook optimises for or profits from. Now, most of the sharing-role has fled in closed group chat platforms (whatsapp, viber, messenger and the like).

                The only thing that seems to still hold some livelihood is microblogging platforms (xtwitter and clones) which are also what replaced part of the blogosphere. But a rant about these would be too large to fit in a comment here.

      • hulitu3 days ago
        > On the other hand these tools do allow individuals to connect and share.

        Yes , with the NSA, MI6 and other 3 letter agencies. The best democracy ever.

    • Hojojo5 days ago
      Honestly, it's crazy that any country allows online media to control the national discourse about politics without having any insight into how the algorithms decide what kind of content is shown to whom and how content is moderated or controlled. Then there's bot/propaganda accounts run by who knows who poisoning any political discussion.
      • beloch5 days ago
        If you're upset with what Meta does in the U.S., consider that Meta's engagement algorithms played a key roll in driving the Rohingya massacre in Myanmar[1].

        "Internal studies dating back to 2012 indicated that Meta knew its algorithms could result in serious real-world harms. In 2016, Meta’s own research clearly acknowledged that “our recommendation systems grow the problem” of extremism."

        They knew there was a problem, but refused to act until Myanmar's government shut them down in 2014. After that, their response was half-hearted, inept, and actually made things worse[2].

        Governments should not simply be paying attention to what users publish on Facebook, but also how Facebook's algorithms promote material to its users. Meta has demonstrated they will not take preventative action themselves. Meta needs to be carefully and extensively regulated by the government of any jurisdiction Facebook operates in.

        It's easy to appreciate concerns that regulating social media could result in state propaganda or censorship. However, regimes likely to do this are probably already using other forms of control anyways. Taking Meta's remorselessly proft-seeking engagement algorithms out of the picture may be the lesser evil by a substantial margin.

        [1]https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-faceb...

        [2]https://www.lemonde.fr/en/pixels/article/2022/09/29/rohingya...

      • imiric5 days ago
        A valid solution is, of course, authoritarian levels of control over all media outlets. This puts countries like China and Russia at an advantage in this case.

        Since most western citizens would object to this, surely middle ground solutions can be found that would prevent abuse and foreign (and domestic) manipulation, while preserving democracy, free speech and individual freedoms. I'm inclined to believe that democracy and authoritarianism doesn't have to be zero-sum, and that a balance can exist that allows societies to prosper even among hostile actors.

      • vasac5 days ago
        And only ten years ago, during the Arab Spring, social networks were praised for their role.

        Wondering what has changed in the meantime.

        • NikkiA2 days ago
          What has changed is who it affected. Meddling in foreign elections/uprising is the US's MO, but when it's reversed it becomes a problem.
      • throw12222121215 days ago
        "To save the public from propaganda, we must implement national controls on all political media dissemination"
        • rcxdude5 days ago
          More like "let's not have national controls on political media dissemination in the hands of large corporations and hidden from view"
          • euroderf5 days ago
            Or more like "Let's require technical measures to inhibit social media provider lock-in."
        • 01HNNWZ0MV43FF5 days ago
          "everyone is smart enough to not be fooled by a firehose of addictive misinformation"

          You can tell how smart everyone is by looking at our excellent voter turnout, especially in local elections

    • rayiner5 days ago
      It’s amusing that the right used to complain about “information warfare”—Marxist infiltration of universities, newspapers, and Hollywood—while now the left does so.
      • emchammer5 days ago
        I don't think that it's a left/right thing. There was a link that appeared here yesterday for a book newly released on Project Gutenberg called Masters of Deception. I went to the library to get a hard copy as it was originally published in 1958. I never thought that I would be agreeing with J Edgar Hoover so much. This is no longer just about Communism.
        • jgalt2125 days ago
          I'm starting to think very few things are left / right. People pick a team or tribe and stick with it regardless of what a dispassionate analysis of their team's positions actual mean to one's own conscience, values, objective function, whathaveyou.
      • mrguyorama5 days ago
        """Used to"""
      • AtlasBarfed5 days ago
        Communism wasn't an authoritarian movement back then, it was anti authoritarian. What is being opposed is authoritarianism.

        China isn't really communist, and neither was the ussr. It's just a regressive authoritarian regime with different propaganda.

        Authoritarianism is fundamentally right wing. Freedom for the right wing is fundamentally doublespeak for freedom for the oligarchs to gain power and oppress. Secondarily that freedom to acquire and impose power is granted to racists so the oligarchs have their foot soldiers.

        • surge4 days ago
          >Authoritarianism is fundamentally right wing.

          Go look at a political compass. Authoritarianism is when you use force to push your ideals, whether they be radical/liberal (left) or orthodox/conservative)(right) ideals on a populace with extreme authority. Communism is considered left/radical, if you use government force to make people adopt it, that's using authority, hence authoritarianism. Please learn definitions and political axis before making silly arguments.

          China isn't really communist because they tried it and people starved, then they had to go back to capitalism or some degree of it, but kept the authoritarianism, and effectively became some hybrid version that leans fascist.

          Communism simply never works at scale, socialism can to an extent, assuming its not abused and there's a homogeneous society with shared cultural values and purpose that includes to contribute and to not abuse it. Hence Nordic socialism, which of course breaks down when you bring in those that don't share those values as its doing now. I've heard enough Swedes bitch about Eastern European migrants abusing their social welfare to say nothing of now to see the idealism fall apart when self interested parties without the same cultural values enter en masse.

          Human psychology being about protecting and serving the interests of your tribe and things like "Dunbar's number" and the limit of the number of people you can literally care about and prioritize makes it impossible at scale. Families can be communist, even a small group of 10-50 people (more or less a cult or small tribe), massive populations can not. They simply are not going to work for the benefit of others without receiving something in exchange, unless you use a gun to their head, which is why all communist regimes start out authoritarian, but holding a gun to someone's head for 10-50 years won't change 200k years of evolutionary programming. Hence why Marx is good at pointing out capitalism's flaws, but he's naive and even more fundamentally flawed when it comes to prescribing a solution that does way more harm in the end.

          Truth is most successful societies adopt a hybrid solution, socialism at the community or local level where everyone works for a shared purpose and contributes to the local community, whether that be through a church, small local government, etc. with capitalism that allows trade and mutually beneficial deals to happen with those outside of that community.

        • atVelocet5 days ago
          > …Communism wasn't an authoritarian movement back then…

          When and where was that?

          • mrguyorama4 days ago
            Communist philosophy is somewhat anti-authoritarian. It's literally about putting the everyday people in power. It's often anti-democratic though. You have to turn to Nordic socialism if you want to bring democracy in, which was developed basically as a direct result of Stalin insisting that Soviet communism was the only communism, and you could either join their (violent, awful) communism or die.

            Except, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, all wrote about how important it was to be self critical, how important it was to stay grounded in reality, to make reality drive your decision making and goals.

            And then they all purposely and aggressively built themselves cults of personality with the express purpose of being just garden variety dictators. They surrounded themselves with boring "Yes men" by murdering anyone who pointed out the clear contradiction between their writing/philosophy/"theory" and reality.

            There's a grand canyon between what they all wrote about, and what they clearly did. The closest they ever came was Mao being like "Whoops, a lot of people died, maybe it's partially my fault" but that sure didn't dissuade him, or make him change direction.

            Meanwhile their hundreds of millions of insane, murderous followers had no qualms about such a contradiction, such a destruction of reality, because they had been so poorly treated for so long in the old system that all they really cared about was tearing it down (gee, sound familiar?).

            A Cult of personality is toxic to functionality. It's toxic to any progress. It's toxic to productivity and success. It's toxic to competence. It's toxic to reality.

          • Supermancho5 days ago
            Answer: Never

            Marx aimed to theorize on a worker based authority. Anti dictator or anti oligarchy, sure.

            Unfortunatley he outlined inadequate protections against an oligarchy, because he believed a society could self regulate equality (between workers).

            Google: Marx on Authority

            • surge4 days ago
              Marx is like a doctor who diagnoses a disease then offers a cure that is worse than the disease itself. It's a bit like removing a leg to fix a broken toe. I figured this out in college thinking about it for 10 minutes, I don't get anyone whose observed human nature for 25 years not to see the obvious flaws in it and why it always breaks down.

              He also fundamentally misunderstands human nature and our ability to care about anything outside a "tribe" or rather put aside our own desires for those not in our immediate tribe. It simply breaks down at scale.

              Just because someone can adequately critique and point out the flaws in a system does not make them qualified to architect a working solution. Especially first draft. The problem with communism is will always devolve into authoritarianism, because its the only way to enforce people putting the needs of others over their own, not to mention those in charge will do whats best to serve their own ruling tribe.

              It's how we evolved, its human psychology, and at mass population scale you can't escape it. Capitalism or trade at least to some extent incentivizes mutual benefits on a basic level, but Marx tosses out the one thing about it that works, otherwise the same problems that occur in capitalism as it devolves come about the same way they do in every other form of human governance, with groups/organizations with a shared purpose or identity (tribes) jockeying for authority and power to serve their own interests.

        • rayiner5 days ago
          [flagged]
          • ryoshoe5 days ago
            There's no shortage of governments where the professed ideology fails to line up with its actual policies, just look at the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.
  • goldchainposse5 days ago
    > They have threatened her with $50,000 in punitive damages every time she mentions Facebook in public … even if the statements she is making are true,” he said.

    Unless Congress asks for the testimony, which is probably why Meta tried to stop the hearing.

    • Alive-in-20255 days ago
      But infinitely rich companies can of course bankrupt any ordinary human by suing them over and over again. They already look bad, so it doesn't make them look worse. Why wouldn't they just keep suing her?
      • JumpCrisscross5 days ago
        > infinitely rich companies can of course bankrupt any ordinary human by suing them over and over again

        No. Not only does SLAPP prevent that, a rich, unpopular company trying to silence a whistleblower through tort is running a PR campaign for their legal defence fund.

        More realistic: being blacklisted from employment.

        • ProllyInfamous5 days ago
          >No ... SLAPP prevent[s] that.

          Yes and no.

          I have successfully defended myself from a SLAPP lawsuit. I have also been arrested. To quote the arresting officer of the unrelated (and questionable) arrest:

          "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride!"

          Defending yourself with an anti-SLAPP mechanism is expensive, time-consuming, and (even with an attorney) both parties can be made to look foolish.

          In my own SLAPP lawsuit, I represented myself (so no attorney fees). I don't recommend others pick fights with megacorporations.

      • leereeves5 days ago
        • gruez5 days ago
          Is that's what's happening here? The bit about suing her "even if the statements she is making are true" makes me think they're not trying to sue her via defamation, but through non-disparagement agreements. If that's the case, I'd hesitate to characterize this as SLAPP. If you voluntarily entered into a non-disparagement agreement and got something in exchange (eg. in exchange for severance or whatever), then at the very least it's slightly different than a journalist or whatever trying to expose some scandal.
          • ben_w5 days ago
            For such reasons, I count non-disparagement agreements as a curtailing of free speech.

            Everything that makes freedom of speech worth defending when the government wants your silence, also applies to businesses.

            The US puts freedom of speech on a pedestal. But stuff like this makes me aware that's a lot more limited than people would like to believe.

            (I've signed at least two non-disparagement agreements, but also I'm not in the US).

  • avalys5 days ago
    All I see in this story are a bunch of things that were under discussion at some point, but never happened.

    But then, “Meta considered doing business in China, evaluated and negotiated with the Chinese government what would be required to do so, and then did not proceed” isn’t a story that is going to sell a lot of books or get her a lot of attention.

    Another tell that this is a stunt for attention and not a genuine issue is her trying to blame China’s progress in AI on Meta’s release of an open-source model.

    • apercu5 days ago
      > But then, “Meta considered doing business in China, evaluated and negotiated with the Chinese government what would be required to do so, and then did not proceed” isn’t a story that is going to sell a lot of books or get her a lot of attention

      It could be as simple as Meta did not want to give the Chinese government partial ownership and their IP.

      • surge4 days ago
        I remember when this happened, it was in the news then, except the conversation was everyone in SV was doing it, including Google. They decided not to. We don't convict for thinking about robbing a bank, you actually have to attempt it and nothing being discussed was explicitly illegal, merely unethical by some arguments, but then again, NSA has several listening posts at AT&T hubs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A), and Apple is building backdoors for iCloud in the UK, its the cost of doing business in western countries, that ethically its simply complying with local laws at that point, just degrees of magnitude.
    • malshe5 days ago
      Read her book Careless People [1] where she shared many details. A crucial aspect of the China story is that FB/Meta conveyed to the Chinese officials that they were ready to do anything they asked for in the hope that they will be allowed in China.

      [1] https://www.amazon.com/Careless-People-Cautionary-Power-Idea...

      • maxglute4 days ago
        IS there a TLDR for why it didn't happen. Reporting at the time said internal dissent (woke/liberal internal culture + worker power) at the time killed the project like it did similar initiative at Google (Project DragonFly).
        • malshe4 days ago
          I think the book mentions that it did not happen because Xi abruptly shut it all down.
  • 1vuio0pswjnm75 days ago
    "Hawley, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Crime and Counterterrorism Subcommittee, said that Meta or Facebook tried "desperately to prevent" him from holding the hearing.

    "They have threatened her with $50,000 in punitive damages every time she mentions Facebook in public ... even if the statements she is making are true," he said. "Facebook is attempting her total and complete financial ruin. They're attempting to destroy her personally, they're attempting to destroy her reputation and I think the question is, `Why?'"

    "What is it they are so afraid of?" Hawley asked.""

    Meta has a stellar reputation to protect. Honest people doing honest "work".

  • zombiwoof5 days ago
    Kinda wild this is a buried story. This should be top news
    • nextworddev5 days ago
      probably a lot of "algorithmic" downvoters
  • jongjong5 days ago
    It's interesting to think about the way in which the Chinese government operates compared to the government of other countries like the US. The US government was conceived as merely a public utility to fund public works; there was no single ideological basis beyond that. Freedom isn't a "single" ideology because it encapsulates all possible ideologies. The ideology rested with the people themselves to implement on an individual basis. The CCP, on the other hand, was conceived as an ideological movement with specific goals.

    Now that the Chinese economy has become so important in the world, the ideological aspects are seeping into the economies of all countries, though it doesn't translate well into western politics. I think this is because the western political system was a limited-trust system, it only worked well when the state was anemic; if the state becomes big (cash-rich), companies will find that they can start to earn significant sums of money from the state, they will redirect their attention to catering to the needs of the state and away from the private sector. Unfortunately the western state has no intrinsic ideology, no intrinsic needs or goals, so it will lead to corruption or faux-adoption of external ideologies (as a means to serve private financial interests).

    Western governments cannot form genuine ideological movements (besides the ideology of economic pragmatism) IMO because their foundations aren't designed to support anything besides that. They are founded on the principles of individualism and limited state power.

    • hluska5 days ago
      Many “western” governments have formed genuine ideological movements. I understand this may be difficult, but what are you actually talking about?
      • saulpw5 days ago
        And the US specifically was founded on the concepts of 'rights' and 'freedoms'
        • marenkay5 days ago
          The special kind of freedom that is limited to one specific group of people. See recent events for reference.
    • 5 days ago
      undefined
    • 486sx335 days ago
      Precisely why China needs to be a whole lot less important to the world. Freedom and personal liberty actually are ideologies. They don’t encompass every ideology that doesn’t make sense at all.

      I’d say CCP and many other governments like Russia and Ukraine are FAR more corrupt than the US. Your argument really doesn’t make sense.

      • walleeee5 days ago
        > Freedom and personal liberty actually are ideologies.

        Feyerabend in particular would likely differ, and say instead that freedom and liberty are what emerge when mature adults democratically order their societies, irrespective (or in spite) of any ideologies used to bind them

        • egberts15 days ago
          Yes

          Paul Feyerabend, a philosopher of science, argued that true freedom and liberty arise when individuals actively and democratically shape their societies, free from the dominance of any single ideology, including science. He contended that science, often regarded as the ultimate path to knowledge, is merely one of many traditions and should not hold a privileged position in society. Feyerabend advocated for a “democratic relativism,” emphasizing equal rights for all traditions and proposing a separation between the state and any specific ideology, akin to the separation of church and state. He believed that this approach would allow individuals to live according to their own values and beliefs, fostering a more inclusive and liberated society.

          https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0020174800860189...

          Feyerabend, P. (1980). Democracy, Elitism, and Scientific Method. Inquiry, 23(1), 3–18.

          https://doi.org/10.1080/00201748008601890

          • ativzzz5 days ago
            > He believed that this approach would allow individuals to live according to their own values and beliefs

            What if someone's values and beliefs are that certain other values and beliefs should not be allowed? Like what if a group believes that gay people shouldn't exist openly in society, or that certain racial groups should be genocided or stripped of their rights?

            I think this is a fundamental issue of tolerance of beliefs - how do you tolerate intolerant beliefs without sliding into intolerance yourself?

          • goatlover5 days ago
            > He contended that science, often regarded as the ultimate path to knowledge, is merely one of many traditions and should not hold a privileged position in society.

            He's plain wrong about that part. Science isn't another tradition, it's a way of putting the world to the test to figure out how things work. It's absurd and dangerous to maintain Feyerabend's view in the midst of a pandemic or climate change, for example, which we've seen with the alternate facts and conspiracy theories.

            • walleeee5 days ago
              I'm not convinced these glosses pin him down. He's worth reading, even if you only want to test your mastery of your own position on questions like this.
        • analog315 days ago
          I'd love to know the reference for that. I've read a couple of Feyerabend's books, but it was years ago, and I gave them away, but would not mind taking another look.
          • walleeee5 days ago
            he says something like this in Science in a Free Society, I'll see if I can find it.
            • walleeee5 days ago
              Some bits and pieces from part 2.1 ("Two questions")

              > [i]n a free society there is room for many strange beliefs, doctrines, institutions.

              > There is nothing in science or in any other ideology that makes them inherently liberating. Ideologies can deteriorate and become dogmatic religions. They start deteriorating when they become successful... their triumph is their downfall.

              > A democracy is an assembly of mature people and not a collection of sheep guided by a small clique of know-it-alls.

              > The reasons were explained by Mill in his immortal essay On Liberty. It is not possible to improve upon his arguments.

      • A_D_E_P_T5 days ago
        Dude the US is insanely corrupt, it's just that a lot of the corruption is called "lobbying" and "consulting." Sometimes also certain forms of "legal counsel." It's whitewashed and normalized.
        • dullcrisp5 days ago
          I’ll admit to having engaged in some of those activities if pressed.
          • A_D_E_P_T5 days ago
            Oh, I didn't even mention the dinners:

            > https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intell...

            Or the "speaking fees," the insider trading, etc. I could go on all day.

            You think that sort of thing isn't corruption? The US has elevated official corruption into high art.

            • dullcrisp5 days ago
              I think Trump hosting million dollar dinners deserves to be called out more than the concept of consulting, which I’m sure is used for both good and nefarious purposes.

              If you’re referring to actual instances of former politicians being paid exorbitant consulting fees by corporations that they helped regulate, though, I’d be interested in better understanding what’s going on there too.

              • A_D_E_P_T5 days ago
                If you're in the business of selling to the government, you might find that it's impossible to make anything happen unless you hire "the right consultants." (Usually small firms that have hired ex-regulators or insiders.) That's what I meant. Not that generic firms like McKinsey are angels, though!
          • MeetingsBrowser5 days ago
            Seems like you just did, unprompted.
    • EasyMark5 days ago
      And China has no corruption or grifting in the government? I do not believe that at all. I reckon it's just as rife as any western government. What the do get right is long term planning and sticking to it, but giving it a time limit (5 years) and the reevaluate priorities. The American government literally has several founding documents and a purpose, I don't see how you think otherwise? Can cronyism happen? Sure, no one is denying that. However what set us apart during the recent downturn is we had some of the most free trade in the world. Now Trump is wrecking that with tariffs and short sighted "look a squirrel!" tactics.
    • squigz5 days ago
      The effects of decades of American propaganda at work...
  • lazyeye4 days ago
    You can watch the full Facebook whistleblower hearing here:-

    https://youtu.be/f3DAnORfgB8

  • neuroelectron5 days ago
    Not really surprising. I'm sure all the major tech companies are engaged in this kind of deal making. The influence of China over Amazon is obvious and there has been cases of algorithmic tampering and account unlocking in their favor.
  • vasco5 days ago
    If you're a director of global public policy for seven years, who are you really whistleblowing, the company, or yourself?

    I appreciate the information coming out, but in some of these situations I can't help but picture that "the worst person in the room" in regards to the offenses might also end up being the person that then becomes the most holier than thou when they get out of the company.

    If you ever met someone who used to work in software ads and ask them about privacy you'll get what I mean.

    • Capricorn24815 days ago
      Everything is incentives of the company. People are not told to do something evil, they're told "We don't have the budget to look into that" or "don't do that until we hear from the higher-ups."

      I'm disinterested in who made what call because ultimately it's designed to be nebulous. Someone breaking out of that horrific cycle and telling us what it leads to is a good thing. Even though it will likely lead to nothing, like it did with Sophie Zhang [1]

      [1] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/facebook...

    • FrancisMoodie5 days ago
      I get your point, but also, so what? The point of this whistle-blowing is that the public gets to make informed decisions about these companies that provide us with services that much of us use daily, and that the government gets a chance to figure out whether this is the truth or not and take actions accordingly. It's not about who is guilty right now but what needs to be done to prevent this in the future, IMO.

      And whatever she might be guilty of doing, the chances of her ever having the same access to sensitive information in any company has gone drastically down after coming forward with this information.

  • Aurornis5 days ago
    > And she says she has the “documents” to back up her accusations.

    Then show those documents? It's hard to take these allegations seriously when the mysterious proof is only alluded to, not submitted as part of the testimony.

    • bbatsell5 days ago
      Almost certainly blocked by NDA; that is her inviting Congress to issue a subpoena so she has legal cover.
      • Aurornis5 days ago
        A corporate NDA doesn't block someone from cooperating with legal proceedings or submitting evidence to a hearing.
        • lokar5 days ago
          And an NDA being void due to such a situation does not stop the company from taking legal action against, costing you lots of money and time to defend
          • typeofhuman5 days ago
            Exactly. That's why the public hearing was held. To make her and the case famous. This is how you play the game. Now Meta can still sue but it risks damaging its public image by going after a famous whistleblower.
            • confidantlake5 days ago
              One of the benefits of having a lot of scandals. Will get buried in the noise. Those that care about this kind of stuff already hated meta, those that don't care won't start caring now.
            • _DeadFred_5 days ago
              The US also has whistleblower protection laws.
          • Aurornis5 days ago
            > And an NDA being void due to such a situation does not stop the company from taking legal action against, costing you lots of money and time to defend

            Not really. If the NDA is void (such as the case with congressional hearings), there isn't going to be a lengthy legal proceeding. The judge would look at it and throw it out.

        • jvanderbot5 days ago
          Exactly what legal proceedings though? That's the point.
          • stackskipton5 days ago
            Congressional Subpoenas are at same level as Court Subpoena. So if Congress subpoenaed her documents, she could (willingly) turn them over and not be in breach of her NDA.
            • 5 days ago
              undefined
          • Aurornis5 days ago
            Congressional hearings can compel witnesses to answer questions under oath, among other things.

            People brought before a Congressional hearing like this can be held in contempt of court for failure to cooperate. Testimony is subject to perjury laws.

            This wasn't just someone writing a letter to Congress with some claims. This was a Senate hearing convened on the matter.

        • stackskipton5 days ago
          You can end up in legal quandary where you fight over exactly what NDA can and cannot cover. Congressional Subpoena would put her on much firmer legal standing. My guess is her lawyers recommended this strategy.
          • Aurornis5 days ago
            > You can end up in legal quandary where you fight over exactly what NDA can and cannot cover. Congressional Subpoena would put her on much firmer legal standing

            A corporate NDA cannot prevent you from cooperating with a Congressional hearing.

        • hluska5 days ago
          Why did you just make up a legal proceeding? There are no proceedings (yet) - that is the entire point of this.
          • Alive-in-20255 days ago
            I heard about her book, I also heard about lawsuit threats from Facebook. Facebook is a rich company so a threat from them to sue you is a serious threat. I'm sure they threaten to sue people to try to quash uncomfortable information as do probably lots of companies. Are you thinking she made up the threatened lawsuits?
            • tsimionescu5 days ago
              No, the poster they were responding to was claiming that the whisleblower didn't need to wait for a congressional hearing, that she could have just presented the documents she claims to have as "evidence for a legal proceeding". But such a legal proceeding doesn't exist (apart from the Congressional hearing she was waiting for), there is no one suing Facebook for corporate malfeasance or whatever where she could present some documents she has as evidence while abiding by her NDA.
          • Aurornis5 days ago
            My full comment included "or submit evidence to a hearing"

            A Congressional hearing can compel people to give testimony under oath. Witnesses can be held in contempt for failure to answer questions.

    • filoleg5 days ago
      It is even harder to take the accusations seriously, given that she made factually provably wrong statements that contradict the reality (and the original article in the OP actually contrasted those very plainly and directly, gotta commend good journalism there).

      > Wynn-Willias told senators that Meta built a “physical pipeline connecting the United States and China” and executives “ignored warnings that this would provide backdoor access to the Chinese Communist Party, allowing them to intercept the personal data and private messages of American citizens.”

      > She said that China does not currently have access to U.S. user data only because Congress “stepped in.”

      > The pipeline to China mentioned by the whistleblower, the Pacific Light Cable, was never completed.

      > The cable, which was first announced in 2016 with support from Facebook, Google and other companies, was envisioned as a high-capacity fiberoptic undersea cable running thousands of miles under the Pacific Ocean connecting Los Angeles and Hong Kong.

      > Bloomberg reported in 2020 that Facebook, Google and other companies abandoned their plans to link the U.S. to Hong Kong. They revised their proposal to build the link only as far as Taiwan and the Philippines, according to Bloomberg.

      Real talk, I have zero idea how she could explain this one away, other than with “it came to me in a dream.”

      • MeetingsBrowser5 days ago
        This is mentioned in her book. In the book she says Meta wanted to build the pipeline, despite the warnings. But yes, ultimately the construction fell through.

        She is not claiming the pipeline exists today.

        • filoleg5 days ago
          I am really curious to hear what evidence there is of that high-capacity fiberoptic undersea cable connecting LA to Hong-Kong (being worked on by many companies like Google/Meta/etc.) ever having any plans of being used as a “backdoor” for China to intercept all the user data.

          Either there is some massive grand conspiracy going on between all those different companies (a good number of which have exactly zero products or revenue or business presence in China) and the Chinese government or, which I am leaning more towards given the claims, this is all just oversensationalized lies.

          Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and so far we only got the “bush did 9/11” level of evidence for claims that are arguably even more wild and convoluted than that.

          The author, for example, also claims that “yeah, this was all according to the plan, until congress stepped in to stop the fiberoptic cable due to those concerns.” Any record of congress doing that for those reasons?

          What about existing fiberoptic cables going through China right now? Are those cables not as special or useful for that purpose? Why not?

          I am not even defending China and their approaches. I am familiar with deep packet traffic inspection and other things of a similar nature their government does. But that’s not a blanket excuse to just claim wild massive multinational conspiracies involving so many actors, all without as much as even good reason for why it would even make sense for them all to cooperate.

          • maxglute4 days ago
            > Any record of congress doing that for those reasons

            I think it was part of Clean Networks Initiative, there's ongoing strategic game to cut PRC out of subsea infra business, just like telcom. IIRC a bunch of sanctions a few years ago killed many cable projects or at least pushed PRC out as partner. Cables landing in PRC didn't. Cables landing in ASEAN but with PRC suppliers/builders ended up switching to other suppliers/builders.

            • filolega day ago
              Those reasons you mentioned make perfect logical sense to me, and are exactly what I saw myself.

              None of those reasons have anything to do with the congress stepping-in due to the concerns of Meta/Google/etc. conspiring with PRC, to provide them a dedicated backdoor access to american user data.

        • maxglute4 days ago
          >ultimately the construction fell through

          It was part of the ongoing subsea cable wars, US wanted to squeeze PRC from subsea infra game a few years ago and sanctioned a bunch of PRC companies which disrupted projects.

      • hluska5 days ago
        [flagged]
  • sudoshred4 days ago
    Suicide by heart attack is imminent.
  • gradientsrneat5 days ago
    I despise Facebook for many reasons, privacy being a major factor. On the other hand, both Trump and Musk own competing social media companies, and the CEOs of other social media companies have attempted to curry their favor. So, there is a potential for conflict of interest here, which could lead to a misproportion of due process. Or, regardless of truthfulness, some form of leverage. Or the trial is just for show. Maybe the accusations are true, but there's a reason this person is coming forward now.
    • travisgriggs5 days ago
      Won’t matter. A handful of judges will use big words, cite legalese, and it won’t matter.

      Every time I think “but the law/constitution won’t allow…” there’s some end run.

      The rule of law is only as good as thems that rule the law.

  • neilv5 days ago
    [flagged]
    • neilv5 days ago
      At least 4 downvotes, no explanation. What's the problem?

      I'm curious what the situation is: did the person speak up internally, were they disempowered, did they go along with it but then have a change of heart at some point, etc.?

      • m-ee5 days ago
        She wrote a whole book about it, and yes that’s more or less her claim. Her telling is that she tried to avoid touching China policy as long as possible until she was forced into it, largely as retaliation for reporting sexual harassment from Joel Kaplan. Kaplan and Zuckerberg were directing most of the China policy personally so she had little to no ability to overrule them.

        The audiobook is free if you have Spotify premium.

  • 92834092325 days ago
    > Meta says it regularly discloses the fact that it generates advertising revenue from advertisers based in China but says that doesn’t mean that it operates services in China. It says its services are banned in China.

    This is phrasing is very weaselly. All foreign companies in China either partner with or are operated by a domestic company like Alibaba or Tencent. Saying "we don't operate our services in China" is like saying water is wet to people who know what that really means. It doesn't in anyway invalidate the claims made against them.

    • wavemode5 days ago
      But this isn't Meta operating in China. This is Chinese companies operating in the US.

      It's not clear to me why it matters that Chinese companies advertise on Facebook, nor in what way this would give them leverage to force Facebook to commit the treason alleged by this article.

      Without further evidence the story isn't really adding up.

      • throwaway484765 days ago
        Pharmaceutical companies are huge advertisers for news publications and shows. It's not because the readers and viewers can buy the product because they can't. They advertise because it buys influence over the news.
    • amanaplanacanal5 days ago
      Yeah they are being weasly about it. They offer advertising services on China, just not their front end social media service.
    • droopyEyelids5 days ago
      It might not be that weasley if they only allow Chinese companies to buy advertising

      It would not require a partnership to buy stuff outside the country

  • curt155 days ago
    >In remarks to a hearing convened by Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.), Wynn-Williams alleged that Meta executives worked vigorously to “win favor” with leaders in Beijing to build an $18 billion business in China.

    Has Hawley demonstrated similar interest about Elon's business dealings in China? Elon owes much of his net worth to the CCP's Shanghai factory.

    • transcriptase5 days ago
      What does that have to do with the topic at hand? Nearly every CEO at a company making physical products from 1990 onward owes much of their net worth to Chinese factories.
      • curt154 days ago
        He's not just a CEO. He's someone who nearly managed to invite himself to a top-secret briefing about military strategy against China.
      • cma5 days ago
        I think Musk got one of the biggest concessions ever without any precedent, something like 100% ownership where no other car plant ever got that before.
        • AtlasBarfed5 days ago
          The CCP can seize that at any moment, and I think will in the event of economic war.

          Certainly if they invade Taiwan and there's a hot response from the US

          • cma4 days ago
            For the other car plants up until his they already take some ownership from the beginning without a war in Taiwan.
        • ashoeafoot5 days ago
          And Ukraine got the minsk agreements, the 1990 "assurances" of independence , concessions and contracts by countries without legal system and kinglike rulers are worthless. So he had a extraordinary piece of paper? So what..
        • chasil5 days ago
          I don't think that anyone could have predicted one year ago where Elon Musk would be today.

          I think the same is true of next year.

          That man is full of surprises.

          • jxjnskkzxxhx5 days ago
            I predict he's not gonna be on Mars.
          • AtlasBarfed5 days ago
            That is charitable.

            I see a clear path of decline.

    • mrguyorama4 days ago
      Hawley was one of the first congresscritters to plan to overturn the 2020 election.

      Nothing he does or says is legitimate. It's all about power.

  • loeg5 days ago
    FWIW, she was fired in 2017 and only now is trying to become a "whistleblower." If the conduct needed whistle-blowing, surely it would have been more timely to come out almost a decade ago.
    • JumpCrisscross5 days ago
      > she was fired in 2017 and only now is trying to become a "whistleblower"

      It's a lot easier to be a whistleblower once you're materially comfortable. More than the threat of legal action is the insidiousness of being blacklisted for employment. I wouldn't take the delay from the actions as evidence of her having ulterior motives. Just that we need contemporaneous notes and/or evidence to ensure she isn't misremembering.

      • loeg4 days ago
        Fair enough.
    • jdgoesmarching5 days ago
      Given how forcefully Meta has cracked down on this, this doesn’t feel like that big of a gotcha. Hell, she’s not even allowed to speak about it outside of congressional hearings because of Zuck’s lawyers. If not for her book, we wouldn’t be talking about this at all.
    • trhway5 days ago
      She published a book with these FB "revelations" recently, like a month ago, so kind of PR tour.
      • MeetingsBrowser5 days ago
        Playing devil's advocate: If the allegations about Meta violating laws in the book are true, what would be an appropriate waiting period before the author testifies to the Senate, so that it doesn't appear to be a PR tour?
        • loeg5 days ago
          She could have raised her concerns in 2017 or earlier, rather than 2025, when her knowledge is eight years out of date.
          • cookiengineer5 days ago
            Not sure why you are writing this bad faith argument. Not a single legal system on the planet is that fast. All class action law suits take years of preparation time in their discovery phase.
            • loeg4 days ago
              What about this do you think is constrained to the legal system? Her book and the senate hearing are not moving through or constrained by the ordinary courts. (And while they're slow, they do generally move faster than eight years.)
          • mrguyorama4 days ago
            God forbid we hold a corporation to account for what they did several years ago.

            Nope, if you can't convince CNN to carry your story the moment it happens, it's clearly not worth doing any law stuff about.

            • loeg4 days ago
              If it wasn't an interesting story in 2017, I don't think it's an interesting story now. You can disagree; that's fine.
        • trhway5 days ago
          A negative value, about -7 years in this case.